Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[Davian]

It happens that my God does make the cut. The characteristics of the cause suggested by the KCA fits perfectly with the Christian god. To say that he doesn't is simply denial.

My comment was made in general. As for your belief that your particular god fits the KCA, I do not dispute it. When something is unfalsifiable, you can make just about anything fit.

Then the next question is, why should I care?

 

[Joshua260]

So why have you a priori ruled out natural processes?

I did not a priori rule out natural processes regarding the KCA. I studied the KCA and after analyzing the consequences, I found that the argument supported my belief that God created the universe. For some reason, Hawking seems to rule out the possibility of a super-natural cause a priori in the work discussed earlier.

 

[Davian]

So was Noah's Ark impossible? Or just highly improbable? Remember that an event that's extremely, extremely unlikely from a naturalistic point of view (say, 1 in a trillion chance)

Show your math.

can be accomplished by the Creator of the universe. So I think you need to understand what the terms "impossible" and "highly improbable" actually mean. Obviously, if you're a naturalist, you're going to think that something very highly improbable (like walking on water) might actually be impossible. But that's only because you're a naturalist.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

Edited to add: http://creation.com/noahs-ark-questions-and-answers

Once you have made an appeal to magic, however small, everything goes out the window. Why could not this allegedly all-powerful-all-knowing-whatever simply fix the problem without flooding the Earth? Or, why bother with a boat? Just teleport the animals and people to when/where they need to be.

But then, that does not make for big scary stories for the preachers to use to keep the flock in line.

 

[Davian]

I did not a priori rule out natural processes regarding the KCA. I studied the KCA and after analyzing the consequences, I found that the argument supported my belief that God created the universe. For some reason, Hawking seems to rule out the possibility of a super-natural cause a priori in the work discussed earlier.

A what-kind-of cause?

 

[OzSpen]

I did not a priori rule out natural processes regarding the KCA. I studied the KCA and after analyzing the consequences, I found that the argument supported my belief that God created the universe. For some reason, Hawking seems to rule out the possibility of a super-natural cause a priori in the work discussed earlier.

John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar - a 'religious' person - does the same.

What are the consequences of a scholar’s presuppositions about the nature of the supernatural? How do they affect his or her other theological conclusions? When Crossan debated William Lane Craig in the Q&A, Craig asked Crossan, ‘Are your preconceived ideas about the impossibility of the miraculous … so strong that, in fact, they skew your historical judgment so that such an event could never even be admitted into court?’ Crossan’s response was that ‘it’s a theological presupposition of mine that God does not operate that way’ (Crossan in Copan 1998:61).


Works consulted

Copan, P (ed) 1998. Will the real Jesus please stand up? A debate between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

 

[bhsmte]

John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar - a 'religious' person - does the same.

What are the consequences of a scholar’s presuppositions about the nature of the supernatural? How do they affect his or her other theological conclusions? When Crossan debated William Lane Craig in the Q&A, Craig asked Crossan, ‘Are your preconceived ideas about the impossibility of the miraculous … so strong that, in fact, they skew your historical judgment so that such an event could never even be admitted into court?’ Crossan’s response was that ‘it’s a theological presupposition of mine that God does not operate that way’ (Crossan in Copan 1998:61).


Works consulted

Copan, P (ed) 1998. Will the real Jesus please stand up? A debate between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

I would think, anyone that thinks super natural forces are required, would define those super natural forces in a way that is appealing to them. After all defining how super natural forces went about their work, requires a whole bunch of assumptions to begin with.

 

[Davian]

WLC didn't have a handy quote to steal from to respond to my argument?

It would seem that a lot of effort on Josh's part could be avoided if he simply provided the link to WLC's site and said buy his books.

 

[Joshua260]

That list is not exhaustive. There are various other supernatural candidates, including polytheistic ones. You also haven't included natural mechanisms as a candidate. Why?

Which super-natural candidates are you talking about?
I've already answered to natural mechanisms many times. If you mean natural as in the cause being something within the universe, that is incoherent since something cannot cause it's own existence. If you mean natural mechanisms existing timelessly, that doesn't seem to make sense because if the natural conditions existed timelessly, it is very difficult to understand why both the cause and the effect (beginning of the universe) did not coexist eternally. However, science seems to support that time is finite. Therefore, it seems that the only way out of that dilemma is if the cause was a free-causal agent. The cause existed timelessly and created the universe in time.

By the way, the Divine Flame is not "pretending" to be anything other than a flame. It is an impersonal, nongaseous flame.

Are you claiming that a flame is immaterial? I don't know why you persist in this incoherency.

The KCA is only a supporting argument if you include the additional conclusion that God is the cause.

Plainly incorrect. The bloody glove supports the argument that OJ was the killer, but itself was not a conclusion.

Are you accusing me of intellectual dishonesty?

Not at all. But you seem to be adamant that I change my argument to something that I do not support and also one that I'm sure you would immediately claim as fallacious. I would rather not make a logical leap that is unjustified but rather stick to honest supportable arguments.

 

[Davian]

I don't see how me not being able to explain in "extreme detail" how any one of those candidates caused the universe to exist proves anything. I can't explain how a lot of things work, but that doesn't prove that they don't.

Indeed. I cannot explain how fairies work, but without them, how would the gardens grow?

 

[Joshua260]

John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar - a 'religious' person - does the same.

What are the consequences of a scholar’s presuppositions about the nature of the supernatural? How do they affect his or her other theological conclusions? When Crossan debated William Lane Craig in the Q&A, Craig asked Crossan, ‘Are your preconceived ideas about the impossibility of the miraculous … so strong that, in fact, they skew your historical judgment so that such an event could never even be admitted into court?’ Crossan’s response was that ‘it’s a theological presupposition of mine that God does not operate that way’ (Crossan in Copan 1998:61).


Works consulted

Copan, P (ed) 1998. Will the real Jesus please stand up? A debate between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

Coincidence. I'm actually reading that exact book right now!

 

[SkyWriting]

Still, no one has replicated that alleged ark.

Dozens have.

 

[Davian]

Dozens have.

Why did you not mention this earlier? Where?

 

[SkyWriting]

Now go ahead and demonstrate how each of those could not be explained by a hoax, a fraud, a hallucination, an exaggeration, or an outright fabrication.

No one at the time, objected to the stories.

 

[OzSpen]

I would think, anyone that thinks super natural forces are required, would define those super natural forces in a way that is appealing to them. After all defining how super natural forces went about their work, requires a whole bunch of assumptions to begin with.

Not if you're a serious student of history, as I am. We look for evidence and there is a stack of it in Scripture where God revealed his omnipotence in action. I most definitely do NOT define supernatural according to my own preference.

 

[OzSpen]

Coincidence. I'm actually reading that exact book right now!

Joshua,

Great debate! I used it as one of the pieces of evidence in my examination of Crossan's view of Jesus' resurrection for my PhD dissertation that was granted in my orals (defence) last night.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why did you not mention this earlier? Where?

You don't pay me well enough to keep you up to date.
I paid for my Library and Information Studies classes.

Dutchman Johan Huibers completes 20-year quest to build full-scale, functioning model of Noah's Ark

A scale model of Noah’s Ark has been built based on a blueprint drawn up in ancient Babylon 4,000 years ago.

Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes

 

[bhsmte]

Not if you're a serious student of history, as I am. We look for evidence and there is a stack of it in Scripture where God revealed his omnipotence in action. I most definitely do NOT define supernatural according to my own preference.

I would like to see this evidence of the super natural.

 

[OzSpen]

Now go ahead and demonstrate how each of those could not be explained by a hoax, a fraud, a hallucination, an exaggeration, or an outright fabrication.

Luke 1:1-4 (ESV) explained why this was not so:

'Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught'.​

Luke compiled his Gospel (narrative), based on information from eyewitnesses of the miracles. Not eyewitnesses of a hoax, fraud, hallucination or fabrication. They were there to see it happen.

The greatest miracle of all, Jesus' resurrection, has post-resurrection witnesses of the resurrected Jesus. Who were they? They included:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me (1 Cor 15:3-8 ESV).​

So the resurrected Jesus 'appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep'. Again there were eyewitnesses and most of the 500 brothers who saw the risen Jesus 'are still alive'. This is an indicated they could go to check out what these people saw. The closing chapters of each Gospel tell us that the resurrected Jesus appeared to people, spoke with them, could be touched, and he ate food with them.

This is hardly the evidence of a hoax, fraud, hallucination or fabrication.
When I check out the biblical evidence I do not find the evidence you suggest with regard to Jesus' life on earth, including the post-resurrection appearances.

Oz

 

[HitchSlap]

Luke 1:1-4 (ESV) explained why this was not so:

'Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught'.​

Luke compiled his Gospel (narrative), based on information from eyewitnesses of the miracles. Not eyewitnesses of a hoax, fraud, hallucination or fabrication. They were there to see it happen.

The greatest miracle of all, Jesus' resurrection, has post-resurrection witnesses of the resurrected Jesus. Who were they? They included:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me (1 Cor 15:3-8 ESV).​

So the resurrected Jesus 'appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep'. Again there were eyewitnesses and most of the 500 brothers who saw the risen Jesus 'are still alive'. This is an indicated they could go to check out what these people saw. The closing chapters of each Gospel tell us that the resurrected Jesus appeared to people, spoke with them, could be touched, and he ate food with them.

This is hardly the evidence of a hoax, fraud, hallucination or fabrication.
When I check out the biblical evidence I do not find the evidence you suggest with regard to Jesus' life on earth, including the post-resurrection appearances.

Oz

Luke is pseudonymous and written decades after the supposed life of Jesus, and as such, certainly not an historical account by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[OzSpen]

I would like to see this evidence of the super natural.

Don't you accept the historical veracity of Scripture?

If you want to see evidence of the supernatural today, take a visit to Nigeria. Go to Lagos, Nigeria, and visit the Synagogue Church of All Nations, http://www.scoan.org/media/healing/, to see the miracles that are happening today. Yes, today.

Several pastors and evangelists from Dove Ministries, New Zealand, went to Lagos to check out this church to confirm the miracles that are happening.