Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

[Reader Nilus]

For those who think man's act has nothing to do with your salvation, think about it for a minute. Were you created out of the dust? Or did your mother and father come together in an act of sexual union and you were conceived? If that is the case then a man and woman had something to do with your salvation I would say, because if your parents did nothing, you would not have been born and therefore would not be saved. So the argument against baptism being a work is just crazy, saying a sinner's prayer is work, as well reading the Bible, praying, the list goes on and on.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

While I'm sure someone has said this already, what about someone who is saved at the moment of death?

Does the Bible state that you can be saved at death? I'm sure God will wonder what your intentions are if you live a life how you want and not what he wants. Many like to use the thief on the cross as an example of this. However, Jesus himself forgave the thief. However, since we don't have Jesus in the carnal sense to forgive us of our sins, we are baptized for the remission of sins as seen in Acts 2:38.

I did not say that it was OK to not follow through. I said it would not result in our being condemned to hell.

Ok, so you didn't say it was ok. However, you seem to be saying that it is alright to disregard a command, such as that in the Great Commission. If it's a command by God, one I'll say that is easy to fulfill, why not do it? I myself would not want to stand before God without the remission of sins, which is what baptism does.

I assume by your answer that you have successfully achieved that state of successfully following ALL of God's commands? Congrats, I've not met a perfect man before. Can we get together sometime?

I make no claims of following all of God's commands. I am a human, and am thusly prone to error. Nonetheless, that doesn't keep me from trying to do everything within my power to do what is pleasing to the Lord, not to myself. I apologize, with all my heart, if I have given the impression to any of my brothers and sisters in Christ if I have given the impression of being perfect. No, I am not perfect. Get together? Well, if you ever wish to study on an issue, I'd be more than happy to.

 

[katherine2001]

Nor am I perfect. Nobody can keep all of God's commandments. However, it is quite clear from the scriptures that it is God's will for Christians to be baptized. If it is at all possible, why not carry it out?

Obviously, someone who is saved on their deathbed probably can't be baptized, and God will make allowances for that. However, if we can be, why not do it? Even Christ, who was sinless, was baptized as an example for us. I read an article in the last month in an Orthodox women's magazine about a woman who was bedridden dying of AIDS, and they managed to baptize her. She died within 2 or 3 weeks of being baptized.

Being baptized is one of Christ's easiest commandments to follow. I do believe it is a commandment to be baptized. It doesn't look like (at least to me) that He was giving the apostles an option to baptize people if they or the new Christian felt like it. I think it's pretty clear that He was ordering them to baptize.

None of us is sinless, and none of us can keep all of God's commandments, but He expects us to do the best we can. He'll help us too. However, He will not force us to keep His commandments, as He gave us free will.

 

[Benedicta00]

If I must be baptized in order to saved, that means that my salvation depends upon the actions of someone other than God and myself. Hmmmmmmm.....

How do you figure that?

Are you giving yourself the grace? Does a priest or pastor give the grace or does God? Who can give grace? Man or God? God gives this particular grace freely, with absolutely no effort on our part because it is the remission of Adam’s sin and because when we were in sin we were dead in our sins, with this grace comes forgiveness of any personal sins we may have.

Jesus said, faith the size of a mustard seed is enough, we do not have to make a full changed heart profession of belief in order to be justified, IOW, we do not have to be born again in order to be born again. That is working, thinking our “belief” saves us, it doesn’t, we can not work for the removal of Adam’s sin, we must be given this freely because we are dead before justification, how can we believe? We can have a disposition of faith, wanting to be saved, desiring salvation and justification, but we can NOT remove this sin ourselves by confessing a belief.

Baptism is the mystery of the cross, it IS the cross of Christ where we who are dead come to Him through His cross. This is God’s way of doing this, not man’s. John # tells us that we must be born again by water AND THE Spirit if we are to see the kingdom of God. That means, if we are to be Christians in His Church and in heaven. His Church is His kingdom on earth, baptism is the entrance into this kingdom, both on earth and in heaven.

What work is done in baptism, I don’t know? A Catholic baptism, the person will make a profession of faith, renouncing sin and Satan and accepting Christ as savior. What the person lacks in faith, because face it, no one has perfect faith, the grace of God’s gift perfects it.

It is not a work; it is the grace of God that we are in touch with. We are dead going in, but we come out alive because of how God’s works in this mystery. He made the mystery of Calvary present to us in the sacrament, the sacraments are alive because of God’s grace, they transcend time and space and we share in God’s divine life of grace by partaking in hem as Paul has said.

 

[Benedicta00]

Water baptism is burial, accepting that you can do nothing !, NOT getting baptised means you think you can do something.

Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Amen, thinking that you on your own an come to a saving faith, not a belief but a saving faith all on your own and that you can remove Adam's sin from yourself by confession a belief, James says even the demons believe and tremble, are they saved? I think not. I agree, accepting grace of justification is not a work.

 

[Benedicta00]

While I'm sure someone has said this already, what about someone who is saved at the moment of death? If they have no time to be baptized, are they still saved? If the answer is yes, then baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Baptism is the ordinary way in which God had ordained and commanded for us to receive this grace of justification. You can not be saved if you have not had Adam’s sin removed from you. You must be born again from perishable seed to imperishable seed but God who created and ordained the sacraments is not bound by them, He can save someone through the merits of Christ based on Him reading their hearts, those who did not have the ordinary opportunity to be baptized. Only God and o one else can truly know who did not have the opportunity to this sacrament and who did and rejected it. The good thief is our example. He came to a desire to be justified, made alive in Christ, he did not have the opportunity to receive baptism, Christ read his heart and said, on this day you will be with me in paradise.

The problem I see with Protestantism in general is this false idea that God can not do both, that he must do things one way or the other.

That His Church must be a invisible or a visible, but the truth is it is both. And that it can not be tradition and scripture, but it can, it is both, that we either save our selves because of free will or that God gives us irresistible grace, it is both, God gives grace, we have to accept it. That baptism is not necessary if God chooses to save with out it, it is both, God requires both. That it is not faith and works that it has to be one or the other, that if we say it is both, it means that we work. It is both/and. We are saved by faith AND works, not one or the other. God is not in a box, he can do it all.

 

[Benedicta00]

I did not say that it was OK to not follow through. I said it would not result in our being condemned to hell. I assume by your answer that you have successfully achieved that state of successfully following ALL of God's commands? Congrats, I've not met a perfect man before. Can we get together sometime?

But to say that creates a big gap. Then what do you believe then? If you say that we must do this, and we KNOW in scripture with out a doubt that we are commanded to be baptized, then what? Did God give us a command but he does not follow through, are we really are expected to follow through? Or we are but if we don’t, no big deal? What happens if you willfully reject this command? You don’t go to hell? Why not? What was it commanded for is not to free us from the inherited eternal damnation? It was commanded for… what reason?

 

[Veritas]

While I'm sure someone has said this already, what about someone who is saved at the moment of death? If they have no time to be baptized, are they still saved? If the answer is yes, then baptism is not necessary for salvation.

False analogy. All must be baptized whether by desire or actual water. The time issue is not a factor with God, who operates outside time and space.

 

[Veritas]

Baptism is the ordinary way in which God had ordained and commanded for us to receive this grace of justification. You can not be saved if you have not had Adam’s sin removed from you. You must be born again from perishable seed to imperishable seed but God who created and ordained the sacraments is not bound by them, He can save someone through the merits of Christ based on Him reading their hearts, those who did not have the ordinary opportunity to be baptized. Only God and o one else can truly know who did not have the opportunity to this sacrament and who did and rejected it. The good thief is our example. He came to a desire to be justified, made alive in Christ, he did not have the opportunity to receive baptism, Christ read his heart and said, on this day you will be with me in paradise.

The problem I see with Protestantism in general is this false idea that God can not do both, that he must do things one way or the other.

That His Church must be a invisible or a visible, but the truth is it is both. And that it can not be tradition and scripture, but it can, it is both, that we either save our selves because of free will or that God gives us irresistible grace, it is both, God gives grace, we have to accept it. That baptism is not necessary if God chooses to save with out it, it is both, God requires both. That it is not faith and works that it has to be one or the other, that if we say it is both, it means that we work. It is both/and. We are saved by faith AND works, not one or the other. God is not in a box, he can do it all.

Good points Shelb! It's as if Protestants have this imaginary line drawn down the middle of space and everything must fall on one side or the other...inclulding the souls of all Christians whether on earth or in purgatory or heaven. "Never the twain shall meet" is their motto!

 

[@@Paul@@]

To begin, you state that God wants us to be baptized as a step of obedience.
And you you yourself think that it is something that should be done.
Yet you still state that there is only one baptism, that which is unto death.

“to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;”

We are talking apart from salvation. Read the OP.

We are baptized into Christ when we are baptized by the immersion of water. There is no baptism of the Holy spirit, as you can see in

Nowhere in the Word of God will you find it's by water baptism which adds us to the body of Christ,, or baptizes us into Christ for that matter...

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Rom 6:3-5 KJV
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

...the Baptism BY the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38- Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

So, it is easy to see that after we are baptized we are saved. Christ’s blood, which we accept through baptism by water, is what cleanses us and saves us from Sin.

(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 3:2 KJV) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(Eph 3:7 KJV) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.​

Again, a little off. I think going into WHY Peter was baptizing would derail this thread. But, the good news of the grace of God and the GIFT of eternal life by Grace through faith came from Paul and Paul alone.
You’re quoting scripture pertaining to the “jewish” ministry of Jesus Christ… John the Baptist was baptizing for the remission of sins,,, So is Peter,,, nothing has changed…. Maybe we still need to do this?

Act 2:44-45 KJV
(44) And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
(45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.​

To believe in something means that you are convicted to do it. I believe in Christ, and that he died on the cross so I have a fighting chance to stand before the Lord when I die with a clear conscience. Therefore, since I believed, I was baptized for the remission of sins and was then saved.

Where in the Word of God does it say if I believe and am convicted??? I’m not arguing with that, except, it’s a baptism of death not water.

(Joh 3:15 KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(Joh 3:16 KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:36 KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(Joh 5:24 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Joh 6:47 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(Joh 11:25 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 20:31 KJV) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

 

[@@Paul@@]

Amen, thinking that you on your own an come to a saving faith, not a belief but a saving faith all on your own and that you can remove Adam's sin from yourself by confession a belief, James says even the demons believe and tremble, are they saved? I think not. I agree, accepting grace of justification is not a work.

Is the grace of God extended to demons?

 

[TSIBHOD]

Well let's see, I can torture the Holy Spirit to make Him say what I want to hear, and I can twist the scripture's to make them say what I want. I think the "Holy Spirit" argument is just another way of saying that there is no objective truth and that you can decide for yourself what you think is right.

So do you think that you can learn the truth without listening to the Holy Spirit? (Answer that question, please.)

Sure, people can fake it and say that they have heard from God when they have not. That is not my concern. My only responsibility in my search for truth is to make sure that I myself listen to the Holy Spirit.

In any case, let me make this simple. You trust the Catholic Church. Why? Because you think way back when, they were right, and they haven't changed from that? But how do you know they were right then? Because historical accounts say that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit? But how do you know that those historical accounts are not biased?

How can you be sure that the Catholic Church is right unless you hear from the Holy Spirit yourself? You might not have to have the Holy Spirit confirm in you the truth of every doctrine that the CC teaches, but you would at least need the HS to speak to you that this was the right Church, "preserved from error," and all that.

Paul said that he did not preach in word but in power. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that touches your life that makes you sure of the gospel. If you can be merely "persuaded" (in an intellectual sense) that the gospel is true, then you can later be persuaded that it is false.

Now if the Holy Spirit is the only way that you can know something is true, what if you fool yourself (or are fooled by someone else) into thinking that the Holy Spirit said something to you that He did not? "Yes, what then?" you ask. "Anyone can say that, and lots of people who do say that are wrong," someone says. Well, so what? So people can be wrong. What else is new?

"But they wouldn't be wrong if they'd just listen to the Church that God established on earth," the Catholic says. Again, how do they know that you're church is not wrong or lying to them? They don't know; unless, that is, the Holy Spirit confirms it to them. There really is no way to really know God except by. . . knowing God.

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

I'm only going to address a few subjects, since we have already gone over most of this once. I would encourage those who haven't read @@Paul@@ and my discourses to do so before further reading.

Now, onto Acts 2:38.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirt."

Ok, down to the mechanics of this statement made by Peter. Number one, the word "for" is the Greek word that means "eis". "Eis", in the Greek, means "in order to obtain." We must be baptized in order to recieve the remission of sins. Number two, Peter says "and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit." Now, there is something that has to be done first to recieve the Holy Spirit? What is that? Go ahead and read the passage again. Repent, be baptized, then recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, if you read a little farther down, in Acts 2:41, you see that "Those who accepted his message [ e.g. believed!] were baptized,..." (brackets added)

There certainly is a pattern there.

Secondly, I would like to address something I have heard others argue over, not only here but elsewhere.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Now, there are those that contend that the latter half of the statement, "but he who does not believe wil be condemned" proves that we are not held accountable for not being baptized.
Well, lets take a look at this statement for a second. As I stated before, The terms "believes" and "is baptized" are past participles in the aurtic tense. One must be done before the other.

I once heard an example go like this: "He who eats and digests will be nourished, but he who does not eat and digest will die." Sounds a little redundent doesn't it? The same applies to this statement.

If you don't believe, there is no reason for being baptized because you've already rebelled against God and his Word. There is no reason to say "but he who does not believe and be baptized wil be condemned."

Let me pose a question: Why would God institute baptism for the remission of sins if it wasn't something a believer needs to do? I've said it many times before, but God does not command that we do things for no reason. For those who wish to see what happened to those who did not follow exactly what God command, I refer you to the stories of Nadab and Abihu, King Uzziah, and Cain and Abel.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I'm only going to address a few subjects, since we have already gone over most of this once. I would encourage those who haven't read @@Paul@@ and my discourses to do so before further reading.

Now, onto Acts 2:38.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirt."

I do understand where you are coming from, but i still see this "baptism" the same baptism which had been going on for4+ years..

(Mat 3:6 KJV) And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
(Mar 1:4 KJV) John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
(Mar 1:5 KJV) And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
(Act 2:38 KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

Which had been happening since BEFORE Christ died on the cross for our sins... Peter confirms this in Acts.

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;​

Now we're obviously back to water baptism as a Jewish Rite and remission of national sins vs. one's individual sins.

 

[@@Paul@@]

To further argue the point of water baptism being/or not being necessary for one's salvation, it's important to also look at the history and origins of "water baptism". It is a biblical fact that it does not always mean to "immerse in water" nor was the “baptism” as we know it originate in the New Testament.

Washings of the Old Testament

The Apostle Paul clearly notes the first baptism ever recorded in the bible (1 Cor. 10:1) as not even being associated with water… This baptism was in fact passing through the water on dry land and had nothing to do with immersion in water.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;​

As Barnes puts it:

They were baptized “in the cloud” and “in the sea,” and this cannot be understood as a religious rite administered by the hand of man. It is to be remembered that the word “baptism” has two senses - the one referring to the application of water as a religious rite, in whatever mode it is done; and the other the sense of “dedicating, consecrating, initiating into,” or bringing under obligation to.​

The Hebrew word for baptism is ṭâbal and is translated plunge, or dip. The first occurrence of the word “baptism” appears in Job 9:31.

Job 9:31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.​

We also see an example of someone baptizing, himself seven times.

2Ki 5:14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.​

Not to mention the Levitical “washing” which signified one’s entrance into the priesthood.

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.​

The Baptism, which John preached.
If John the Baptist came on the scene baptizing the nation of Israel only, and dealing with the national sins of Israel then we must also conclude that this was foreseen in the OT.
John came on the scene preparing the way by preaching the need for repentance to the nation of Israel… Their King was on the way, a 180 was needed.

Mar 1:2-4 KJV
(2) As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
(3) The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
(4) John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

The condition of Israel at the first coming of the Lord was no different than what we see Isaiah talking about here…

Isa 1:4-5 KJV
(4) Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
(5) Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.​

…A sinful nation that had “forsaken the LORD”. No one will argue that Jesus did not come in the flesh as King to the children of Israel; this baptism of repentance was an acceptance of that King. The period in Acts (at least the first few chapters) was no different.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:​

Paul’s Baptism.

I think I’ve covered this in my previous posts. I’ll say one thing. Paul was appointed the gospel of Grace; Paul was also appointed the ministry TO the gentiles. So what did Paul say?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize (unlike John the Baptist), but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

Surely we still have the baptism of Death today; as it’s the circumcision made without hands.

 

[herev]

Does the Bible state that you can be saved at death? I'm sure God will wonder what your intentions are if you live a life how you want and not what he wants. Many like to use the thief on the cross as an example of this. However, Jesus himself forgave the thief. However, since we don't have Jesus in the carnal sense to forgive us of our sins, we are baptized for the remission of sins as seen in Acts 2:38.


Ok, so you didn't say it was ok. However, you seem to be saying that it is alright to disregard a command, such as that in the Great Commission. If it's a command by God, one I'll say that is easy to fulfill, why not do it? I myself would not want to stand before God without the remission of sins, which is what baptism does.


I make no claims of following all of God's commands. I am a human, and am thusly prone to error. Nonetheless, that doesn't keep me from trying to do everything within my power to do what is pleasing to the Lord, not to myself. I apologize, with all my heart, if I have given the impression to any of my brothers and sisters in Christ if I have given the impression of being perfect. No, I am not perfect. Get together? Well, if you ever wish to study on an issue, I'd be more than happy to.

Ok, I'm back after a day away, it seems I've made a few people angry--sorry--sincerely to all! To agree to disagree, we must admit that all of us extrapolate from scriptures. My belief is certainly based on trying to have harmony of the Bible in my own conscience. Your belief that we must have Jesus carnally to receive deathbed salvation is not said anywhere in the scriptures, so it must be based on extrapolation as well. As to saying it is alright to disregard such a command, again, no--it is not alright, but since we literaly ALL disregard his commands at some level at another, then adhering to them as a requirement for salvation either means that no one is saved or that we somehow make a list of sins which do not cause one to lose salvation and those that do. I don't feel any of us is qualified to do that. Since I do believe that we are no longer under condemnation once we are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1), then Jesus already paid for any of my transgressions.
Remember, I DO believe that genuine faith produces genuine Christian living. However, since none of us is perfect on this side of heaven, the genuine living transformation is a process. While the Holy Spirit may begin working on my sin of swearing first, he may also work on someone else's sin of adultery first. It is a process. Therefore, the only way (in protestant thinking) to achieve salvation while still being a sinner is to rest FULLY on Christ to do the saving.
How this relates to water baptism? Baptism (the ritual) is performed by a person (I've baptized dozens of people myself). To suggest that I have a hand in someone else's salvation puts me on the same plane as Christ--no thanks, I'll leave that to him.
I appreciate your stance and have enjoyed the banter. I think we agree much more than our words allow.

 

[herev]

Baptism is the ordinary way in which God had ordained and commanded for us to receive this grace of justification. You can not be saved if you have not had Adam’s sin removed from you. You must be born again from perishable seed to imperishable seed but God who created and ordained the sacraments is not bound by them, He can save someone through the merits of Christ based on Him reading their hearts, those who did not have the ordinary opportunity to be baptized. Only God and o one else can truly know who did not have the opportunity to this sacrament and who did and rejected it. The good thief is our example. He came to a desire to be justified, made alive in Christ, he did not have the opportunity to receive baptism, Christ read his heart and said, on this day you will be with me in paradise.

The problem I see with Protestantism in general is this false idea that God can not do both, that he must do things one way or the other.

That His Church must be a invisible or a visible, but the truth is it is both. And that it can not be tradition and scripture, but it can, it is both, that we either save our selves because of free will or that God gives us irresistible grace, it is both, God gives grace, we have to accept it. That baptism is not necessary if God chooses to save with out it, it is both, God requires both. That it is not faith and works that it has to be one or the other, that if we say it is both, it means that we work. It is both/and. We are saved by faith AND works, not one or the other. God is not in a box, he can do it all.

Certainly we agree that God can do anything he so chooses to do. If I have suggested that He CANNOT, I apologize. I merely comment on what I believe he has set out in his plan of salvation. My beliefs are certainly my own, and I freely admit to being human and prone to err, but I have studied scripture and tradition, applied my own experience and reason, and developed what I believe to be sound doctrine. I have been saved by believing in Jesus as my lord and savior. The rest of my life, the Holy Spirit will continue to prompt me to be more Christlike in my walk, and I know in my heart that during the time between now and perfection, though I may slip, my salvation has been purchased and paid for by none other than the Son of God. I continue to believe that water Baptism is a GOOD thing, but not related to salvation.

 

[herev]

But to say that creates a big gap. Then what do you believe then? If you say that we must do this, and we KNOW in scripture with out a doubt that we are commanded to be baptized, then what? Did God give us a command but he does not follow through, are we really are expected to follow through? Or we are but if we don’t, no big deal? What happens if you willfully reject this command? You don’t go to hell? Why not? What was it commanded for is not to free us from the inherited eternal damnation? It was commanded for… what reason?

OK, here again, the idea of not following a command sending us straight to hell would suggests that anyone not perfect is bound there--that's like--uhh, everybody but Jesus, right. Nowhere do I know of does the Bible say willful sins are worse than unintentional ones. Jesus in fact suggests the opposite: If you hate your brother in your heart, you have already committed murder, etc.
God's command is perfection. I WORK hard to get there, but the difference between where I am and perfection is made up for by the blood of Christ.
Thanks for your input.

 

[herev]

False analogy. All must be baptized whether by desire or actual water. The time issue is not a factor with God, who operates outside time and space.

I completely agree, I thought the topic was water baptism?

 

[herev]

Good points Shelb! It's as if Protestants have this imaginary line drawn down the middle of space and everything must fall on one side or the other...inclulding the souls of all Christians whether on earth or in purgatory or heaven. "Never the twain shall meet" is their motto!

Nowhere have I insulted the Roman Catholic doctrine, I welcome you all as brothers and sisters in the faith. My motto certainly is not as you suggest; have I given you cause to lump me in with all "Protestants."
Oddly enough, I feel what I have been saying has been quite intentionally NOT to lump souls on one side or the other, but those that have responsded to my posts have said either do this or that or you don't really have your salvation.
Please forgive any insult I have unintentionally sent your way.
Thanks