Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

[Qoheleth]

In James many things were going wrong in the Church because many were fighting against each other. They were not to confess personal sins. They were to confess wrongdoings to one another and to ask for forgiveness.

I will agree that they were confessing their transgressions against each other concerning the "rumblings". This is a personal sin though dont you think??

Also, they would not confess their sins to an unbeliever, that would make no sence now would it. Church history records that confessing was indeed a public occurance and I will provide several texts to demonstrate that this practice existed.

I submit though, that, certain denominations reduce the act of confession and repentance to a legalistic affair that is not supported by scripture.

The act of confessing ones sins to another believer is an intimate, bonding event and does have benefits within and for the Christian community.

However, the act of confessing sin to another does not effect forgiveness. A contrite heart that repents is the sign of a perfect confession that the Almighty bestows forgiveness upon.

 

[GenemZ]

I will agree that they were confessing their transgressions against each other concerning the "rumblings". This is a personal sin though dont you think??

They were to confess all personal sins that pertained to the given situation. It does not speak of confessing one's everyday sins to another as a normal part of church protocol.

Also, they would not confess their sins to an unbeliever, that would make no sence now would it. Church history records that confessing was indeed a public occurance and I will provide several texts to demonstrate that this practice existed.

Yet, what was the purpose for it? We can pray to the Father through Jesus? Yet, we need to confess our sins to one another as a normal practice? Certain sins we do confess to others, as shown in James. These sins were originally directed towards the one we were confessing to. Peter was told a similar thing by the Lord...

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."
Matthew 18:21-22 niv

That is the type of sin we forgive another. We do not need to hear that someone is sleeping with his girlfried. That is now gossip, and not confesssion. Who are you to have someone confess their sins to you, ones that do not pertain to you directly? Its none of your business. Its between them and the Lord. Why should we be confessed to? Are we the Lord?

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Mark 11:25 niv

When we stand praying? That is confessing one's sins directly to God!

I submit though, that, certain denominations reduce the act of confession and repentance to a legalistic affair that is not supported by scripture.

Unless there is need to confess a sin to another because it was against the one confessing to, its nobody's business but God's.

An example.

Tim) "John, may I tell you something?

John) " Yes, Tim. What is it?"

Tim) " Remember last year when you ran for class president, and I started rumors about you?

John) "Yes?"

Tim) "Well, I was jealous of you, and was acting immature. I am sorry I did that, and glad now that you won. Would you please forgive me?

John) " Sure! No hard feelings."

Now, that's the type of sin we confess to another. Tim does not tell John that he is lusting for the girls down the street and ask for forgiveness. That makes no sense. But, folks with a strong yen for gossip and are nosey bodys would just love to hear the sins of others. Its not their place to hear their sins confessed. Its all between us and the Lord.

The act of confessing ones sins to another believer is an intimate, bonding event and does have benefits within and for the Christian community.

I see. Let's get real, here. You would confess to someone you mastubated over thoughts of his sister? Come on now! How could you? Make sense of this! Sins are nobody's business except between you and the Lord! Certain superficial sins can be safe to confess, I suppose. Or identity sins, like fellow alcoholics attempting to help each other overcome their sense of weakness. But the nitty gritty stuff is nobody's business.

One would have to be an idiot to confess all their sins to another. That is, if they are honest about sin and do not get repression headaches all the time by suppressing sinful thoughts from entering the conscious mind. Jesus said that if you just lust in your heart after a woman you have comitted adultery. You are going to confess your mental sins to another? That is nuts! James is the only one who says to confess to one another, and it was to receive healing. Healing because they were under God's discipline for fighting and grumbling against each other. Most likely, some were blaming others for the mess they were in, hating the other for what they were all having to face by God's will.

However, the act of confessing sin to another does not effect forgiveness. A contrite heart that repents is the sign of a perfect confession that the Almighty bestows forgiveness upon.

Under normal circumstances, covering the full gamut of sins we as sinners can commit?... Both mental, and overt sins? To start confessing your sins to another, is a form of evil gossiping about yourself. Gossip is a sin.

You mean you would even confess your sexual fantasies to another? (I use sexual sins for an obvious reason). You would confess these sins to another? Sins that God has already forgiven you the moment to admit it was sin (1 John 1:9)? That is nuts. And, it is a form of sinning in itself. It would be like having another smell your underwear you messed in, but God has already cleansed the moment to acknowledged you sinned. You sin twice by remembering what God has already forgiven and forgotten. You dirty up what God has already cleansed! You need to confess, confessing personal sins to another!

But... I suppose some people will have a lust for intruding on another's privacy fulfilled in the name of God. It sure beats the gossip papers.

God is our Father. We do not need to confess to a man what is a sin against the Lord.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[Qoheleth]

Yet, we need to confess our sins to one another as a normal practice? Certain sins we do confess to others, as shown in James. These sins were originally directed towards the one we were confessing to. Peter was told a similar thing by the Lord...

Confessing to the one we wronged is healthy and encouraged. Confessing is the simple acknowledgement of the wrong we comitted, is it not? I feel we agree about this.

I see. Let's get real, here. You would confess to someone you mastubated over thoughts of his sister? Come on now! How could you? Make sense of this! Sins are nobody's business except between you and the Lord! Certain superficial sins can be safe to confess, I suppose. Or identity sins, like fellow alcoholics attempting to help each other overcome their sense of weakness. But the nitty gritty stuff is nobody's business

I would submit that announcing a personal sin, yes even those you offered, in a christian setting and asking for prayer and healing is practiced. It is not for the others to forgive as only God has done this.

To start confessing your sins to another, is a form of evil gossiping about yourself. Gossip is a sin.

Well, okay, if you see it that way...Im sure your going to bring up another sexually perverse situation now. How about, theft, false witness, covetness??

You are imagining that I am asking your forgiveness (during a confession) for transgressions that I did not commit against YOU. I am not saying this at all.

Suppose that I am with a friend/relative of mine (Christian) and I admit, acknowledge (uh oh...confess) that I am suffering with greed or a theft or whatever issue, and I ask for their prayers. Is this vain and evil gossip? Did I ask them to forgive me...NO.

You mean you would even confess your sexual fantasies to another? (I use sexual sins for an obvious reason). You would confess these sins to another? Sins that God has already forgiven you the moment to admit it was sin (1 John 1:9)? That is nuts. And, it is a form of sinning in itself. It would be like having another smell your underwear you messed in, but God has already cleansed the moment to acknowledged you sinned. You sin twice by remembering what God has already forgiven and forgotten. You dirty up what God has already cleansed! You need to confess, confessing personal sins to another!

But... I suppose some people will have a lust for intruding on another's privacy fulfilled in the name of God. It sure beats the gossip papers.

Im sorry, you are very hostile towards my comments and I dont feel that you have tried to "seek first to understand, then to be understood". I believe that all our sins past, present, and future have been covered and forgiven. We acknowledge, admit, (confess) our sins before the Lord to draw closer to him in our Christian walk. Our confession of sins is to again be filled with the grace of forgiveness and realization of redemption bought for us. We are assuming our responsibility for sinning against the Lord and then we move on.

 

[GenemZ]

Confessing to the one we wronged is healthy and encouraged. Confessing is the simple acknowledgement of the wrong we comitted, is it not? I feel we agree about this.

It is called, saying... "I'm sorry." That's all it involves. Its healthy and expected. That is what James spoke of.

I would submit that announcing a personal sin, yes even those you offered, in a christian setting and asking for prayer and healing is practiced. It is not for the others to forgive as only God has done this.

You are making a bad move. A naive move.


"For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
Matthew 10:35 -36 niv

God forgives and forgets.


" As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12 niv


"I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more." Isaiah 43:25 niv

Man does not forget.

"This is what the LORD says:

"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength
and whose heart turns away from the LORD . " Jeremiah 17:5 niv

"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." Psalms 118:8

Why allow a healed wound by God, to be possibly cut open again? Why confess to man? If confession to another is not to ask for forgiveness, it can be used against you in the future, while God has already forgotten about it.

Families and churches would not have the personal privacy as to live onto the Lord if they all confessed personal sins to one another that did not pertain to the one they were confessing to. Matter of fact, that is what Communist blocks used to do. Get individuals in groups to confess their sins to one another. It was a means to break down one's self identity and sense of liberty and independence..... Satan uses this technique to emotionally blackmail others. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to confess personal private sins to one another. No where. Even in Israel under law, the only one who was to hear the confession was a priest who was about to transfer the sin to the animal about to be slaughtered. Christ is now our sacrifice, and we are all now priests. We are to confess our own sins to God. He is the only one who does forgive and FORGET. Its stupid to confess to a man, to trust in the flesh. No one knows who your enemies will be in the future. At least the Catholics, even though its an evil system, have enough sense to keep the priest from seeing the one confessing.

Well, okay, if you see it that way...Im sure your going to bring up another sexually perverse situation now. How about, theft, false witness, covetness??

If God forgives you in a given situation? So, why confess to a man? I am not speaking about a rare close trusted confidant that some of us may have. That's your business, and not commanded of the Lord. I am speaking of confessing to another in church. What if a one who commits a crime confesses to someone in church? Then he panics, and fears he will be exposed? Now the one who heard the confession may be in serious danger! Why? God never gave such a command. Period.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Qoheleth]

It is called, saying... "I'm sorry." That's all it involves. Its healthy and expected. That is what James spoke of.

What, with no mention of what the transgression was???

You are making a bad move. A naive move.

You agreed with me earlier, are you really trying to not understand my points. I didnt say blab, I said admit to the one who was wronged.

Okay the verses you listed do not forbid admitting, acknowledging (confessing) and asking for forgiveness from the one wronged. If you stole $10 dollars from your Dad, can you not admit (confess) your theft from him and ask is forgiveness??

Why do remain obstinante in saying it is wrong to confess a sin that you committed to that person that specifically.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to confess personal private sins to one another.

The apostle John wrote: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 Jn. 1:9).



If one refuses to concede his sin, what then?

There are three possible venues of confession:

1. to God alone;
2. to God and to other persons - who may have been victims of the sin, or privy to it;
3. a general public acknowledgment.

Let us think about each of these for a moment.

First, when one has sinned a sin that is against God alone, or perhaps known only to the Omniscient One, the matter can be settled between the principals involved. For example, if one, in anger, mentally lashes out at the Lord (as Job did on occasion), he need merely, in his petition to the Father, ask for forgiveness. It is not necessary to “blab” mental sins to the entire world, as a former President did, for instance, when he told the whole of society of his spiritual lapses of lust for some women.



Second, when our sin is known to others, we are obligated to confess the fault - at least to those who are privy to the situation. Altercations that are private should be settled between “him and thee alone” (Mt. 18:15). Occasionally, though, it is the case that a brother sins against another, but the transgressor does not have the courage to approach the offended party directly, acknowledging wrong and asking pardon. Rather, he will walk down the church aisle and make a generic confession: “I have done and said things against others that I shouldn’t have; I ask for your prayers.” That is not the way to remedy a personal sin against another.

Third, there is the matter of public confession. Sometimes one’s sin is so widely identified that nothing but a public confession will suffice to satisfy the matter.

Near the conclusion of his third missionary campaign, Paul came to the city of Ephesus. As a result of his teaching, a church was established. These saints were zealous initially, with a genuine love for the Lord (cf. Rev. 2:4). Some of them, though, became entangled again in their old habits - apparently reverting to “magical” practices (for which Ephesus was known). According to Luke’s record, though, they were convicted of their error, and they came “confessing and declaring their deeds” (Acts 19:18). The sense of this passage seems to be this: These erring brethren openly acknowledged what had been widely known, i.e., their sinfulness in practicing magical crafts. Additionally, they brought their little scrolls, containing ritual inscriptions, and burned them “in the sight of all” (19:19).

I am drawing my understanding from these scriptures above. Confession (admitting) of a transgression (wrong) to the inured party and confessing the sin to God are related yet different in application and reason.

I am not endorsing telling my sins to a priest or whoever so that I may now know Im forgiven, and I can have a clear conscience, nor have I ever said this.

 

[Qoheleth]

Just for sake of clarity, If I told you, admitted, yes confess (a Christian brother) that I was currently filled with anger (Jesus said that this is equated to murder in the heart-and yes a sin) and lied about my unfair, manipulative, demeaning, cruel, boss and I ask for your prayers in healing, (scripture allows and ecourages this, even Paul admitted his sinful actions and asked for prayer), would this be unscriptural and sinful??

 

[Qoheleth]

Understand in the previous situation, I am not asking your forgiveness by Telling, admitting, acknowledging and by definition Confessing this anger and asking for your prayers.

 

[GenemZ]

What, with no mention of what the transgression was???




Okay the verses you listed do not forbid admitting, acknowledging (confessing) and asking for forgiveness from the one wronged. If you stole $10 dollars from your Dad, can you not admit (confess) your theft from him and ask is forgiveness??

I did say, to confess a sin to the one you sinned against. You just cited an example.

Such it was with James. They were under trial as a group. They were possibly being presecuted by unbelieving Jews boycotting their businesses. (That did happen to many Jewsih believers in Jerusalem). Now, some in the church may have been bitterly chewing out Shlomo for witnessing to a popular religious leader, who in turn organized a group to persecute the church members. What all those chewing out and being bitter towards Shlomo needed to do, was to ask his forgiveness... and they would be healed. Healed because they were being disciplined by God for their sins against one another. Yet, one did not have to go up to Shlomo and tell him that he lusted after a young woman. That was not pertinent to the problem facing the Church of James concerning sin.

Why do remain obstinante in saying it is wrong to confess a sin that you committed to that person that specifically.

You simply missed me saying that. I did.

The apostle John wrote: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 Jn. 1:9).

If one refuses to concede his sin, what then?

God disciplines believers who are refusing to concede.

"Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:19-20 niv

"I stand at the door and knock." Knocking is pain of discipline inflicted in our lives to get our attention back on the Lord. It is a passage directed to believers. It is not a salvation passage as so many preachers erroneously think it is. If we hear his voice and name our sins... we will get back into fellowship with the Holy Spirit... walking in the light.


If they persist in not conceding? They may end up being taken home early.

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that." 1 John 5:16 niv

There are three possible venues of confession:

1. to God alone;
2. to God and to other persons - who may have been victims of the sin, or privy to it;
3. a general public acknowledgment.

Part lll, only if he sinned against the group in particular. Not just to vent his dirty laundry for all to see. If he mentions personal sins to a group he will cause certain others to sin themselves by judging him. He is tempting them to sin in that case. No where in the Bible are we commanded to announce our personal sins to a group. Why should we?

Let us think about each of these for a moment.

Well, if you can quote chapter and verse, maybe I would.

Second, when our sin is known to others, we are obligated to confess the fault - at least to those who are privy to the situation. Altercations that are private should be settled between “him and thee alone” (Mt. 18:15).

That applies if he wronged you, and it bothers you. Its is what unbelievers do also. Its called confronting someone who did you wrong. Jesus warned to not go gossiping to others, and to keep it between you and the other, only. No group confession here.

Occasionally, though, it is the case that a brother sins against another, but the transgressor does not have the courage to approach the offended party directly, acknowledging wrong and asking pardon. Rather, he will walk down the church aisle and make a generic confession: “I have done and said things against others that I shouldn’t have; I ask for your prayers.” That is not the way to remedy a personal sin against another.

If it is to be done, I think no exact details should be given. Only that he is in a situation that requires more courage to do the right thing, and that he needs wisdom. Never leave room for another to be tempted to judge your sin by mentioning it specifically.

Third, there is the matter of public confession. Sometimes one’s sin is so widely identified that nothing but a public confession will suffice to satisfy the matter.

That is rare. But I can see need for it in rare instances. But only if his sin hurt others he is confessing to. Jesus warned us not to judge others. So if they were walking in the Spirit they would not need to hear his confession. They should have not been gossiping, and not everyone should know. If they knew by gossip, its them that need to confess to God and learn not to judge and to keep their mouths shut.

Near the conclusion of his third missionary campaign, Paul came to the city of Ephesus. As a result of his teaching, a church was established. These saints were zealous initially, with a genuine love for the Lord (cf. Rev. 2:4). Some of them, though, became entangled again in their old habits - apparently reverting to “magical” practices (for which Ephesus was known). According to Luke’s record, though, they were convicted of their error, and they came “confessing and declaring their deeds” (Acts 19:18).

They confessed a specific deed. They did not stand there for hours confessing all known sins. This was an offence that had to be dealt with. Paul did not pry beyond that specific sin... which was a practice of evil, not simply sin.

"When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas." Acts 19:17-19 niv

It says they were confessing evil deeds, not simply sin. Sin is what we do by impulse and drives that our old sin nature enpowers and motivates. Evil is a system of THINKING that JUSTIFIES doing what is unlawful. This does not require simply confession (admitting sin)... Evil requires a change in thinking. Evil requires repentance, a change of thinking. They openly confesssed was a renouncement of doing evil. It was repentance, not simply confessing.

The sense of this passage seems to be this: These erring brethren openly acknowledged what had been widely known, i.e., their sinfulness in practicing magical crafts. Additionally, they brought their little scrolls, containing ritual inscriptions, and burned them “in the sight of all” (19:19).

I am drawing my understanding from these scriptures above. Confession (admitting) of a transgression (wrong) to the inured party and confessing the sin to God are related yet different in application and reason.

I John 1:9, the word, confessed is homologeo. Confess in Acts 19, is the even stronger 'ex-homologeo' - out from a situation - stated their case. Its a different Greek word! Different type of situation involved! It is like a person standing outside a demolished burned down house confessing he was smoking in bed. Great fear had gripped this group at the exposure of the power of Christ! Their old stronghold was destroyed already. They were surrendering to truth. Throwing down their weapons, so to speak. They were coming out with their hands up (praising God).

I am not endorsing telling my sins to a priest or whoever so that I may now know Im forgiven, and I can have a clear conscience, nor have I ever said this.

Ok... then do three Hail Mary's, and call me in the morning.

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Acts 10:38 Now God anoited Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jew, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and showed Him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be Judge of the quick and the dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall recieve remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spoke these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word


spirit baptism before water!
Mark 4:9-12, Romans 4:5, 8:9, 10:17, 1 cor 12:13

45 And they of the circumcision[jews] which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit

1 cor 14:22, acts 1:8, Mark 1:8

46 For they heard them speak in tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Isa 28:11-12

47 Can any man forbid water, that these men should be baptised which have recieved the Holy Spirit as well as we? 48 and he commanded them to be water baptised.....

 

[herev]

The thread that wouldn't die