Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

[Benedicta00]

Good points Shelb! It's as if Protestants have this imaginary line drawn down the middle of space and everything must fall on one side or the other...inclulding the souls of all Christians whether on earth or in purgatory or heaven. "Never the twain shall meet" is their motto!

I personally believe it is our fallen nature. We can not comprehend the divine because it pertains to the divine and we are human so we have this need to bring God down to our understanding and tidy it all up so we can grasp His mysterious ways, but they are mysterious, they can never fully be explained. We must accept the mystery, live in the mystery and not try to limit God because we can not grasp mystery. Salvation is a mystery and to try to pin down and exclude what gets you there or what doesn’t is not accepting God is mysterious.

 

[Benedicta00]

Is the grace of God extended to demons?

No, why do you ask?

 

[Benedicta00]

Certainly we agree that God can do anything he so chooses to do. If I have suggested that He CANNOT, I apologize. I merely comment on what I believe he has set out in his plan of salvation. My beliefs are certainly my own, and I freely admit to being human and prone to err, but I have studied scripture and tradition, applied my own experience and reason, and developed what I believe to be sound doctrine. I have been saved by believing in Jesus as my lord and savior. The rest of my life, the Holy Spirit will continue to prompt me to be more Christlike in my walk, and I know in my heart that during the time between now and perfection, though I may slip, my salvation has been purchased and paid for by none other than the Son of God. I continue to believe that water Baptism is a GOOD thing, but not related to salvation.

I think you devotion to Christ is wonderful. You speak like a true believer.

The thing is, though Jesus had a lot to say and He did command that we are baptized, why? And scripture does let us know that Christ is the new and everlasting covenant and baptism is the entrance into this covenant. I can you show if you like how scripture does teach this.

 

[Kripost]

Perhaps another way to ask the question is 'Is there a good reason to not wanting to be baptised?'

 

[herev]

I think you devotion to Christ is wonderful. You speak like a true believer.

The thing is, though Jesus had a lot to say and He did command that we are baptized, why? And scripture does let us know that Christ is the new and everlasting covenant and baptism is the entrance into this covenant. I can you show if you like how scripture does teach this.

I have never doubted that Jesus commanded us to be baptized--He also commanded us to love our neighbor, but our salvation is based on his actions, not ours--that's all I'm saying. I believe we should be baptized--really I do! But, if it not required all the time--it is not required--God is no respector of persons. If the thief could be saved without baptism, baptism is not NECESSARY. Going to bed now--have a good day!

 

[Benedicta00]

OK, here again, the idea of not following a command sending us straight to hell would suggests that anyone not perfect is bound there--that's like--uhh, everybody but Jesus, right. Nowhere do I know of does the Bible say willful sins are worse than unintentional ones. Jesus in fact suggests the opposite: If you hate your brother in your heart, you have already committed murder, etc.
God's command is perfection. I WORK hard to get there, but the difference between where I am and perfection is made up for by the blood of Christ.
Thanks for your input.

The bible does say that there are sins unto death and there are sins not unto death.

We aren’t perfect, we are born fallen people dammed to hell and the command to baptize is not just any command that we have the option of doing or not doing. It is the sacrament of the dead. We are dead spiritually before baptism, after we are alive. Now any sin we commit can be forgiven accept the sin aganst the Holy Spirit, because now we are born again, before it did not matter what sin we committed and why, we were damned anyway.

The bible says, he who sins against the Holy Spirit can not be forgiven in this world or the next world. Don’t you think rejecting baptism where you are given the gift of the Holy Spirit is sinning against Him?

We don’t go to hell because we did not get baptized when God said to, we go because NOT to is a pure rejection of grace, the gift of the Holy Spirit. We are damned by willfully rejecting baptism because we are willfully rejecting the grace that comes from it. We damn ourselves by not wanting grace.


Why else would someone want to disobey this command, for what reason if it is not because they are rejecting this grace from God? There are those who innocently are taught that it is not necessary that it is a ordnance. Those who truly don’t know, IMO, will have mercy shown to them, but there are those who know but reject the teachings of the Church because they reject the Church. Only God truly knows who is who and will judge accordingly.

 

[Benedicta00]

I have never doubted that Jesus commanded us to be baptized--He also commanded us to love our neighbor, but our salvation is based on his actions, not ours--that's all I'm saying. I believe we should be baptized--really I do! But, if it not required all the time--it is not required--God is no respector of persons. If the thief could be saved without baptism, baptism is not NECESSARY. Going to bed now--have a good day!

I think this is where we are not on the same page. I agree any repented for sin is forgiven and you do not go to hell for it but you have to be born again in order to be a heir to the kingdom. Do we agree on that point?

If you reject the means that makes you a born again Christian, how do you inherit the kingdom? We believe and can show in scripture that baptism is the ordinary means of justification, that will lead to salvation.

The good thief did not reject grace when offered to him, he accepted Christ and was saved. God is not bound to water baptism but He does command it for justification that leads to salvation, so only He can judge you, to know do you reject it or do you honestly do not have access to it for what ever reason.

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Today was quite an interesting day for me, and I'll get to that in a minute. Firstly, I'd like to say that I haven't had a chance to read everyones post after mine except @@Paul@@'s. You don't have me convinced yet, because I still see it as a command, and we're to keep God's command as best as possible. Acts 2:38 shows us that we are baptized for the remission of sins. I don't think you can get around that verse, but maybe someone can. I'm always open to the Truth.

Anyways, onto my day, which, by the way, may have some weight to these discourses.

Today, I went down to the river, specifically the Colorado River (here in Yuma, AZ) to join a some of my friends with their Baptist youth group. It was ackward since I am not a Baptist by any means (could ya tell??) I still had a rather good time, even though there was a age gap between me and the younger teenagers.

Night fell, and a man got up and gave his testimony and how Jesus has fixed his life. It really was a great story, and it just went to prove that Jesus can lift us up. I reflected on this later on in the evening, and it warmed my heart and soul, as it always does, to think how much the Lord loves all of us.

Afterwards, an invitation was given to become a Christian. I was happy to see a few stand up, then a few more. They were led off to the side, and they had a prayer.

Afterwards, I went over, recited Mark 16:16, Acts 2:28, and Acts 8:36-38. I asked them if any of them wished to be baptized, and 3/4 of them did. I took them down to the river, which was quite close, and baptized them.

I'm proud of those young kids. I really am. I pray that the Lord will help them grow spiritualy, and I hope all of you will pray for them too. Our world's youth needs a great deal of prayer. I'm sure many will agree.

I can still here one mother in the back of my head yelling to her daugther "No! Don't go down to the water! Get AWAY from the water!" I don't know wether or not I baptized her, but it struck me as a little odd.

Anyways, there is a point to this story. These kids didn't worry what their parents thought, or if it was necessary. They wanted to do God's will, and I'll be darned if they didn't march down to the water and take the plunge.

Herev, sorry if I offended you as well. It was never my intention, sir. However, you did knock my reputation down. No, that's ok. Perhaps I deserved it.

 

[herev]

I think this is where we are not on the same page. I agree any repented for sin is forgiven and you do not go to hell for it but you have to be born again in order to be a heir to the kingdom. Do we agree on that point?

If you reject the means that makes you a born again Christian, how do you inherit the kingdom? We believe and can show in scripture that baptism is the ordinary means of justification, that will lead to salvation.

The good thief did not reject grace when offered to him, he accepted Christ and was saved. God is not bound to water baptism but He does command it for justification that leads to salvation, so only He can judge you, to know do you reject it or do you honestly do not have access to it for what ever reason.

Yes, we agree on that point, but along with all those scriptures are ones like, whosoever believe and it is by grace you have been saved through faith that indicate it is the faith that saves you. We inherit the kingdom because of what Jesus has done, water baptism is an outward and visible sign of an inward event--it is the inward event that brings salvation.
In addition, I continue to believe that water baptism is something that is done by humans, therefore it cannot be an instrument of salvation (unless, of course you are baptized by Christ, himself).

 

[herev]

"Herev, sorry if I offended you as well. It was never my intention, sir. However, you did knock my reputation down. No, that's ok. Perhaps I deserved it."
How did I do that? REally I am sorry if that happened, I'm not even sure what you mean. Was it something I said or did?
I just tried to add reputation to you and it said I had to spread it around before I could add to yours again. I did add to yours in another forum discussion. Please forgive me if I did something wrong!

 

[Benedicta00]

But those verses refer to after you have been regenerated, not before and it is not referring to the how you are regenerated. John 3 16 comes after the dialogue with Nic, where Jesus tells us how we are born again, by water and the spirit, then He goes on to say that who so ever believes in Him will be saved. That is perseverance in faith until that end, that is faith and works but you fist must be saved by grace. You can not give yourself grace by professing faith. You respond to grace and then you are baptized and then you believe in Christ until the end of your life relying on grace and mercy, this is how you are saved.

And there is absolutely no place in the bible where it says that baptism is a outward sign or it is only a symbol of what happens inwardly. The bible specifically says that “Baptism now saves you.”

Romans 6
3
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
Titus 3
4
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,

 

[Andyman_1970]

Acts 2:38 shows us that we are baptized for the remission of sins. I don't think you can get around that verse, but maybe someone can. I'm always open to the Truth.

I don't think there is a "getting around" this verse, that phrase tends to tends to have a negative connotation to it. The Greek word there for "for" is eis and can be translated to mean "because of". We say things like I took an aspirin for a headache. The aspirin didn't give you the headache, you took the aspirin as a result of the headache.

Acts 2 is Peter's first sermon, in Acts 3:19 which is a parallel verse to Acts 2:38, and his second sermon, he makes no mention of baptism. If baptism were essential and it regenerated, don't you think that would be a theme that would be consistently presented by Peter?

Mark 16:16, Acts 2:28, and Acts 8:36-38.

Mark 16:16 give us no indication that baptism is essential, the verse tells us that unbelief is what results in condemnation, not lack of baptism.

Acts 2:28 ???

Acts 8:36-38 Notice the eunuch confessed his belief prior to his baptism. This verse does point to the important of baptism.

Also, understand our baptism originated from the from the Jewish mikvah. This ceremony was used when w Gentile wanted to convert, and was a sign that he had repented, made the One True God his God, and pictured his turning away from his pagan gods. This was also used by Jews who desired repentance, and as a sign of their repentance they would perform the mikvah. So this eunuch's desire to be washed could have more to do with his desire to show his repentance rather than his "need" to be washed so that he could be saved.

Anyway, just some thoughts on this.

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

I don't think there is a "getting around" this verse, that phrase tends to tends to have a negative connotation to it. The Greek word there for "for" is eis and can be translated to mean "because of". We say things like I took an aspirin for a headache. The aspirin didn't give you the headache, you took the aspirin as a result of the headache

I'll quote Wayne Jackson on this one.

"There are two things wrong with this. First, it is not true that eis can mean “because of.” No standard lexicon ever defines it in that fashion, and it is never translated in that way in the New Testament. (See: A Rose is A rose; Or is It?)


Second, there is an old axiom - that which proves too much, proves nothing. Let us apply this spurious definition of eis to the 1 Timothy 1:16. In this context Paul affirms that the mercy he received from the Lord serves as an example to all that “should thereafter believe on him [Christ] unto (eis) eternal life.” Note the language - “believe eis eternal life.” Is the apostle suggesting that one believes on the Lord because he already has eternal life? The very idea is preposterous and not even our denominational friends are generally inclined to so argue."

Mark 16:16 give us no indication that baptism is essential, the verse tells us that unbelief is what results in condemnation, not lack of baptism.

I don't know if you have read what I have written previous to these recent threads, but I would suggest going back to them to read what I have said about Mark 16:16.

Acts 2:28 = Acts 2:38 Forgive me of the typo.

For those that wish to read the rest of Wayne Jackson's article, here it is : http://www.christiancourier.com/notes/believeUntoEternalLife.htm

 

[@@Paul@@]

No, why do you ask?

Then "devils believing" does not prove that we need to do more than believe to be saved.

 

[@@Paul@@]

We always seem to make mountains out of mole hills. "It's better translated like this..." or "A better version would say this..." "The greek renders this better as..."

When really, in Acts 2 and 3, Peter was not talking about Eternal life of a believer. I think i should change my signature,,, "How many is ONE again?"

Hey Joe Orwell Fuss! I'm an Indepentant non-Baptisting Baptist!! go figure

 

[herev]

But those verses refer to after you have been regenerated, not before and it is not referring to the how you are regenerated. John 3 16 comes after the dialogue with Nic, where Jesus tells us how we are born again, by water and the spirit, then He goes on to say that who so ever believes in Him will be saved. That is perseverance in faith until that end, that is faith and works but you fist must be saved by grace. You can not give yourself grace by professing faith. You respond to grace and then you are baptized and then you believe in Christ until the end of your life relying on grace and mercy, this is how you are saved.

And there is absolutely no place in the bible where it says that baptism is a outward sign or it is only a symbol of what happens inwardly. The bible specifically says that “Baptism now saves you.”

Romans 6
3
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
Titus 3
4
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,

I salute you in your biblical knowledge. Let's agree that we will disagree. We have begun to circle around. I enjoyed the banter, hope you did. God bless you and your ministry in educating so many with your wisdom. You are truly gifted in your knowledge and your ability to defend your position.

 

[Benedicta00]

Then "devils believing" does not prove that we need to do more than believe to be saved.

What is proves is that believing is not a saving, living faith that will lead to salvation. Even the demons believe and tremble.

We are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone. The grace that comes from being born again is what leads us to salvation. After we are in a state of grace, then our faith AND works will manifest salvation. Faith can not be a living faith if you have no works. You can have faith but it will be dead, even the demons believe and tremble.

 

[Benedicta00]

I salute you in your biblical knowledge. Let's agree that we will disagree. We have begun to circle around. I enjoyed the banter, hope you did. God bless you and your ministry in educating so many with your wisdom. You are truly gifted in your knowledge and your ability to defend your position.

Thank you for being such an enjoyable person to talk with. It is a breath of fresh air.

 

[@@Paul@@]

What is proves is that believing is not a saving, living faith that will lead to salvation. Even the demons believe and tremble.

We are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone. The grace that comes from being born again is what leads us to salvation. After we are in a state of grace, then our faith AND works will manifest salvation. Faith can not be a living faith if you have no works. You can have faith but it will be dead, even the demons believe and tremble.

Right,,, but even dead faith saves... and do you think "manifesting salvation" is a necessary process in which to keep eternal life?

Faith.
belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof

Belief.
1. acceptance of truth of something: acceptance by the mind that something is true or real, often underpinned by an emotional or spiritual sense of certainty​

Now, if i said i have "Faith that Jesus Christ died and rose again the third day", that would leave a little room for doubting. How much faith do i have on this matter?

What if i "Believed that Jesus Christ died and rose again the third day"? Little room there...

So i do not think James was refering to eternal life here.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.​

...as devils are not given this "gift" of grace. In this case, the devils believe in one God and as far as i know, that's not the belief i need to get the free gift of eternal life.

So i guess i was just confused as to how devils believing fits into being beptised in water to be saved...

 

[@@Paul@@]

Today was quite an interesting day for me, and I'll get to that in a minute. Firstly, I'd like to say that I haven't had a chance to read everyones post after mine except @@Paul@@'s. You don't have me convinced yet, because I still see it as a command, and we're to keep God's command as best as possible. Acts 2:38 shows us that we are baptized for the remission of sins. I don't think you can get around that verse, but maybe someone can. I'm always open to the Truth.

Not yet!!

You're killing me.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

So are you saying water baptism is the method by which we recieve the "forgiveness of sins, through his blood" by the hands of others?

AND

What about the Old Testament saints? Did Jesus go into hades and baptize the thief on the cross for the remission of sins?

Question #3:
DO you think that...

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.​

...by faith and through faith are the exact same thing?

#4.
Is this baptism still in operation today?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

Note: the baptism INTO Jesus is done BY the Holy Ghost.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,​