Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

[Benedicta00]

this is so wrong


you can´t ask for something and say biblical support only...what about tradition? the bible calls for scripture and tradition

I think this is a way of asking Catholics and Orthodox not to participate.

 

[JVAC]

I think this is a way of asking Catholics and Orthodox not to participate.

As Martin Luther would say, "This most certainly is true".

I don't see how ignoring tradition will help us find the truth.

-James

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

To begin, you state that God wants us to be baptized as a step of obedience.

think God wanted us to do it, as a step of obedience

And you you yourself think that it is something that should be done.

the first step (i believe) is water baptism.

Yet you still state that there is only one baptism, that which is unto death.

But Paul says there is only ONE baptism today.....There can't be Two if the inspired scripture says One.

So, your logic follows this path: It’s ok, it is great, and it should be done. God wants us to do it, you think it is a good thing, but then the Scripture dictates otherwise. Has God ever commanded something specific, and then let us decide whether or not we should do it? Once again, I’ll point my finger towards Nadab and Abihu, King Uzziah, and Cain and Abel.



We are baptized into Christ when we are baptized by the immersion of water. There is no baptism of the Holy spirit, as you can see in



Acts 2:38- Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”



So, it is easy to see that after we are baptized we are saved. Christ’s blood, which we accept through baptism by water, is what cleanses us and saves us from Sin.

To believe in something means that you are convicted to do it. I believe in Christ, and that he died on the cross so I have a fighting chance to stand before the Lord when I die with a clear conscience. Therefore, since I believed, I was baptized for the remission of sins and was then saved.

 

[TSIBHOD]

I think this is a way of asking Catholics and Orthodox not to participate.

Oh for goodness' sake! Give it a rest. Don't take offense so easily, Catholics. It is not as if you can't find Bible verses in support for baptism anyway.

And besides that, Protestants don't trust your traditions any more than you trust theirs. Even you are being irresponsible if you believe what your church teaches simply because you trust it when it tells you that it is always right. You would need the Holy Spirit to communicate to you personally that the Catholic Church is preserved from error to be sure that that is so. You would even need the Holy Spirit to show you that Christianity is the right religion. Your natural mind couldn't understand it by itself. Granted, the Holy Spirit's help is offered to all, but the point is that without the Holy Spirit, we are all sunk in our pursuit of the truth.

So just preach what you believe to be the truth, and don't worry about convincing people. If they are sensitive to the Holy Spirit, then they will listen to the truth. If you aren't preaching the truth, then they will not believe them because of the very fact that they are indeed listening to the Holy Spirit. Finally, if you preach the truth and they disbelieve because they are not listening to the Holy Spirit, then don't worry about it because it is not your fault. You are only responsible to sow the seed. If you preach the truth and your listeners believe in spite of not listening to the Holy Spirit, then you have not taught them anything anyway. They are those who receive the word with joy, but when trouble arises, they will depart from the faith.

In conclusion, no matter how good your arguments are, without the Holy Spirit, all is for naught. And if your tradition is really right, then the Holy Spirit will confirm that to those who are sensitive to Him. And as I said, if they are not sensitive to Him, there's no use trying to convince them of the truth anyway. They either won't believe, or will believe for the wrong reasons and will stumble in their faith later on.

 

[Veritas]

Well let's see, I can torture the Holy Spirit to make Him say what I want to hear, and I can twist the scripture's to make them say what I want. I think the "Holy Spirit" argument is just another way of saying that there is no objective truth and that you can decide for yourself what you think is right.


The Catholic posters were correctly pointing out the bible itself does not say all the answers are found within or that it is the sole and final rule of faith (sola scriptura). Therefore, when the OP states (rudely, I might add) that he will only accept responses from the bible, he is attempting to set it up so that he gets the answers he's looking for; meaning, he's not interested in the truth. If the witness of the early Church is to be accepted, then we can easily see that they (some of whom were taught by the Apostles themselves) had very definite ideas regarding the necessity of baptism.

Oh for goodness' sake! Give it a rest. Don't take offense so easily, Catholics. It is not as if you can't find Bible verses in support for baptism anyway.

And besides that, Protestants don't trust your traditions any more than you trust theirs. Even you are being irresponsible if you believe what your church teaches simply because you trust it when it tells you that it is always right. You would need the Holy Spirit to communicate to you personally that the Catholic Church is preserved from error to be sure that that is so. You would even need the Holy Spirit to show you that Christianity is the right religion. Your natural mind couldn't understand it by itself. Granted, the Holy Spirit's help is offered to all, but the point is that without the Holy Spirit, we are all sunk in our pursuit of the truth.

So just preach what you believe to be the truth, and don't worry about convincing people. If they are sensitive to the Holy Spirit, then they will listen to the truth. If you aren't preaching the truth, then they will not believe them because of the very fact that they are indeed listening to the Holy Spirit. Finally, if you preach the truth and they disbelieve because they are not listening to the Holy Spirit, then don't worry about it because it is not your fault. You are only responsible to sow the seed. If you preach the truth and your listeners believe in spite of not listening to the Holy Spirit, then you have not taught them anything anyway. They are those who receive the word with joy, but when trouble arises, they will depart from the faith.

In conclusion, no matter how good your arguments are, without the Holy Spirit, all is for naught. And if your tradition is really right, then the Holy Spirit will confirm that to those who are sensitive to Him. And as I said, if they are not sensitive to Him, there's no use trying to convince them of the truth anyway. They either won't believe, or will believe for the wrong reasons and will stumble in their faith later on.

 

[herev]

salvation is based on faith and faith alone. To believe that you must do anything--even being baptized--to receive salvation suggests that Jesus needs your help in doing the saving. We are commanded to be baptized--just as we are commanded to be perfect, even as our heavenly father is perfect. Failure to do either breaks a command from God, but does not result in our being condemned to hell. Jesus has saved us, what we do or don't do with that (as humans) can never have the power to overrule the actions of our Savior.
The more we argue over our actions as indicative of salvation, the more we splinter the church. We are Christians because of what HE has done--believing and accepting that free gift is our sole burden of responsibility!

 

[Veritas]

salvation is based on faith and faith alone. To believe that you must do anything--even being baptized--to receive salvation suggests that Jesus needs your help in doing the saving. We are commanded to be baptized--just as we are commanded to be perfect, even as our heavenly father is perfect. Failure to do either breaks a command from God, but does not result in our being condemned to hell. Jesus has saved us, what we do or don't do with that (as humans) can never have the power to overrule the actions of our Savior.
The more we argue over our actions as indicative of salvation, the more we splinter the church. We are Christians because of what HE has done--believing and accepting that free gift is our sole burden of responsibility!

Welcome to CF

Where does the bible teach that we are saved by faith alone?

 

[herev]

Paul says we are saved by faith, not works, that no one should boast.
Jesus says, For God so loved the world...that whosoever believes...will be saved
and the list goes on

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Failure to do either breaks a command from God, but does not result in our being condemned to hell

Once again we find that God has given a command, but "It's ok if we don't follow through."

To believe in something is to be convicted, cut to the heart, to take action. I'll point out that Mark 16:16 states "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condmned."
As well, I'd like to reference James 2:24 - "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
The terms "believes" and "is baptized" in the Greek Testament are past participles in the aurtic tense. It is a series of actions that must be done before one is to be saved.

 

[katherine2001]

And James says that faith without works is dead. In James 2:14-26, it says:

14. What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

15. If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,

16. and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead.

18. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

19. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

20. But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

22. Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

23. And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

24. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out the other way?

26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works.

How can you believe and it not affect your actions? How did Abraham show his faith in God? He showed it by actually taking Isaac and laying him on the altar in preparation of actually sacrificing his son as God had commanded him to do. He was actually prepared to obey God and do what God had told him to do. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus says: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Good examples Katherine2001

 

[Benedicta00]

Paul says we are saved by faith, not works, that no one should boast.
Jesus says, For God so loved the world...that whosoever believes...will be saved
and the list goes on

Works of the law. Since when was baptism a work of the OT law? We are saved by grace alone, not faith alone or works alone but by the grace of God sending us His son to die for our sins and reconcile us back to God by removing Adam's sin.

With out grace, no one can even come to believe in Christ and be saved. In our natural unregenerated state, we are not capable of faith, God must pour out His prevenient grace into our hearts and our acceptance of that grace is the gift of faith.

Once a person comes to believe by the prevenient grace of God (which means first, or initial grace) that they are sinners in need of mercy, they are baptized. This is pure scripture. “Believe and be baptized.” Belief as James says is not justification because even the demons believe and tremble but justification comes from being born again. One is born again through the mystery of baptism because baptism is the means of justification, that particular grace of justification that God ordained to use to bring mankind back into communion with Him and give Him the divine life of grace to Him.

Being born again is objective, it is not based on anything we can do. Being born again is NOT a one time event where every thing is completed in one sweep. We are not justified, sanctified, and purified all on one shot and given a guarantee of salvation.

Being born again means that we are no longer born to Adam’s seed where we will suffer eternal damnation because we are born to the human race who cut themselves off from God. But it means being freed form eternal damnation by being born from Adam into Christ. Now we are a clean slate forgiven our personal sins and original sin and we now can live as Christians re born walking in the spirit not the flesh. We are no longer under the OT law as our standard of judgement, we are now under grace, pure grace where when we fall short we have the cross of Christ that we were born again into that forgives us and we rise again to a newly created person.

This is Roman 4 and this is and what Paul was saying to us. He was not saying that works are no longer needed. Abraham certainly was not required to lack in His works, in fact if you read, the works is what manifested his faith. He had faith, shown by his works. He was not compelled to do the works because he had faith but his faith was shown because of his works.

We are saved by the grace of God, the blood of Christ. Period. But our salvation, (justification and salvation are NOT the same thing) is manifested through our faith AND works. When we persevere in our faith, trusting in His mercy, until the end, w will be saved. This is what we can bank on.

In baptism, a person is given the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and love, that we are not capable of having unless God gives them to us. They are given in baptism they are in seed form and we must accept this gift of justification by cooperating with the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us, if these seeds will grow into a living faith, not a dead faith. James says, that faith with out works is dead.

We grow in faith, hope and love by practicing good works and developing virtue and rooting out vice, the underlying cause of sin, always relying on grace, the Holy Spirit and trusting in mercy every second of the day. Christ said, apart from Him we can do nothing. We receive the grace from Christ through the sacraments of His Church, the way He ordained, and when we cooperate by opening our hearts to grace, the graces are made operative in our life and we then can transform from a wounded fallen man into Christ’s image. Jesus said to be perfect as God is perfect.

This is not works; it is doing as we were commanded to do, to be holy. The sacraments of the Church are grace, they are not works, they sanctify us because it is Christ we meet in the sacraments, this is what Paul said, that we partake in the divine nature of God, we are given the divine life of God through the sacraments and when we fall from this grace through willful sin, we have a way back because Christ died once for all. Paul warned about works of the law. This is entirely different from that, in the sacraments, it is God working, not us, everything He gives to us is freely given and a gift from Him. And yes, every last thing I have stated can be back up and proven with scripture.

 

[bliz]

If I must be baptized in order to saved, that means that my salvation depends upon the actions of someone other than God and myself. Hmmmmmmm.....

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

If I must be baptized in order to saved, that means that my salvation depends upon the actions of someone other than God and myself. Hmmmmmmm.....

I'm not sure what you mean by this Bliz, but if you're refering to having someone push you underwater, then yes. However, as mentioned in earlier posts, Phillip baptized the eunuch that he preached Christ to. It is an inspired example in our Bibles that cannot be brushed aside for the sake of feeling better about our decisions, or the lack thereof. There is a divine pattern in the New Testament that shows people believing and then being baptized that cannot be ignored.

 

[NJA]

Water baptism is burial, accepting that you can do nothing !, NOT getting baptised means you think you can do something.

Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[JVAC]

salvation is based on faith and faith alone. To believe that you must do anything--even being baptized--to receive salvation suggests that Jesus needs your help in doing the saving. We are commanded to be baptized--just as we are commanded to be perfect, even as our heavenly father is perfect. Failure to do either breaks a command from God, but does not result in our being condemned to hell. Jesus has saved us, what we do or don't do with that (as humans) can never have the power to overrule the actions of our Savior.
The more we argue over our actions as indicative of salvation, the more we splinter the church. We are Christians because of what HE has done--believing and accepting that free gift is our sole burden of responsibility!

Baptism is an Act of God, and believing that you have salvation is believing God's promise, that he made to you in Baptism. There is no human action on which we earn anything.

-James

 

[katherine2001]

Also, baptism was part of the Great Commission. In Matt. 28:19, it says " Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Obviously, from this verse and others that have been cited, baptism is the will of the Father and of Christ when at all possible. Very few of us are saved just before our deaths so that we cannot be baptized. It does not sound like to me from the verse quoted above that baptism is an option. And Christ Himself was baptized in water. We're supposed to follow His example and be baptized in water also.

 

[katherine2001]

I should have said that it doesnt seem to me that baptism is just an option that I can decide to do or not do. I need to be obedient and be baptized.

 

[herev]

I should have said that it doesnt seem to me that baptism is just an option that I can decide to do or not do. I need to be obedient and be baptized.

While I'm sure someone has said this already, what about someone who is saved at the moment of death? If they have no time to be baptized, are they still saved? If the answer is yes, then baptism is not necessary for salvation.

 

[herev]

Once again we find that God has given a command, but "It's ok if we don't follow through."

To believe in something is to be convicted, cut to the heart, to take action. I'll point out that Mark 16:16 states "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condmned."
As well, I'd like to reference James 2:24 - "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
The terms "believes" and "is baptized" in the Greek Testament are past participles in the aurtic tense. It is a series of actions that must be done before one is to be saved.

I did not say that it was OK to not follow through. I said it would not result in our being condemned to hell. I assume by your answer that you have successfully achieved that state of successfully following ALL of God's commands? Congrats, I've not met a perfect man before. Can we get together sometime?