Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

[Benedicta00]

I may have missunderstood your explaination here,, but your reasoning seems to contradict scripture.

Being given God's grace while NOT being "redeemed" is grace. Which is given through FAITH.

Eph 2:5 KJV
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved​

.....EVEN when we were dead in our sins (dead state of being), God raised us up and quickened us together with Christ: this process Paul then says is "by GRACE ye are saved". That is grace, giving us something we do not deserve. Mercy on the other had is not giving us what we deserve.

Eph 2:6 KJV
(6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

...AND even being dead in SIN were we raised up and seated with Christ in heavenly places.

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

...Everything Paul just described is GRACE (being saved while we are dead in sin) which we receive through FAITH.

This is a two step process. GRACE + FAITH... It's not REDEMPTION by water baptism, GRACE and then FAITH....

How am I going to be saved if I am not redeemed?
Redemption means to buy back... To make acceptable... I was made acceptable by the blood of Jesus Christ. - every person walking this earth was bought back by the Blood of Calvary. All we need to do now is approach the throne of grace... through faith.

Lets get a little exegetic....

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;​

...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;​

We are given the free gift of the grace of God through... ready... by faith... That faith is "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus".

Paul,

I know I have been through this before, you just make us repeat ourselves.

We are born in state of sin, we can not earn grace by having faith- we are dead in sin, our works are rags.

God pours out His preveneient grace on us. This is an actual grace- it is NOT sanctifying grace. It is a calling to come to believe you are a sinner and in need of redeeming grace.

Once you “believe” you are baptized and through this mystery you are G-I-V-E-N, as in freely given faith, hope and love and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You did N-O-T-H-I-N-G to earn this, God gave you the grace you needed to come to believe and you followed His calling to be “saved” as in redeemed by receiving the free gift of Jesus Christ’s merits in baptism.

NOW… take all the verse you have and NOW apply them in this context. Go ahead- believe with your heart and confess with your lips Jesus is lord and YOU will be saved because you have been justified by the blood of the Lamb to be saved if you do as Christ said- persevere until the end in faith AND works.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

children of the devil=darkness
children of God= light 1john 3:10

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your father then ye would love me......

proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps

 

[Benedicta00]

John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

children of the devil=darkness
children of God= light 1john 3:10

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your father then ye would love me......

proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps

The baptized and the unbaptized, shame isn't it? Not all will be baptized whether that be of water or other.

No difference in what you believe- you just think it's the elected and the non elected. Baptism doesn't save because God does (which is what baptism is God saving us) by choosing who will be born again. We believe anyone can be through baptism. God set this system up precisely so anyone can receive it.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

The baptized and the unbaptized, shame isn't it? Not all will be baptized whether that be of water or other.

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we[saints 1 cor 1:2] all baptized into one body......

Romans 8:9 b Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No difference in what you believe- you just think it's the elected and the non elected. Baptism doesn't save because God does (which is what baptism is God saving us) by choosing who will be born again. We believe anyone can be through baptism. God set this system up precisely so anyone can receive it.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.....

 

[Benedicta00]

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we[saints 1 cor 1:2] all baptized into one body......

Romans 8:9 b Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.....

Yeah- that’s pretty much what I said… You don't think that last line really supports salvation through election... do you? No one disagree it is because of the grace of God we keep on, keeping on.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Eph 1:4 according as He hath chosen us in Him before the world began.

2 tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, an called us with an holy calling, not according to our works , but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created

John 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made

 

[Benedicta00]

Eph 1:4 according as He hath chosen us in Him before the world began.

2 tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, an called us with an holy calling, not according to our works , but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created

John 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made

Again, how does this support it?

 

[Benedicta00]

..

 

[Phoebe]

It's a yes or no question, not a straw... i know water does not save me... obviously..

But if i don't GET baptized,, am i still going to be saved?

You're not baptized?

 

[katherine2001]

Whether or not you will be saved is God's decision to make, not ours. However, Jesus says in several places in the Gospels that it is those who keep the commandments that love God. He also said that it won't be everyone who says "Lord, Lord" who will be saved but those who do the will of the Father. It is God's will that we be baptized in water.

When you love someone, don't you want to do everything you can to meet their desires and needs? What kind of relationship will you have if you only care to do the bare minimum you have to do? I doubt that it would be a very satisfying relationship at all, and would probably be a relationship in name only.

 

[SPALATIN]

Whether or not you will be saved is God's decision to make, not ours. However, Jesus says in several places in the Gospels that it is those who keep the commandments that love God.

And how do we keep the commandments? We certainly can not do it on our own power or by our will. We only do what the Holy Spirit enables us to do through our faith in him.

Titus 3 says "At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life"

He also said that it won't be everyone who says "Lord, Lord" who will be saved but those who do the will of the Father. It is God's will that we be baptized in water.

When you love someone, don't you want to do everything you can to meet their desires and needs? What kind of relationship will you have if you only care to do the bare minimum you have to do? I doubt that it would be a very satisfying relationship at all, and would probably be a relationship in name only.

You have stated correctly that it is a relationship that we have with Christ, but not of what we can do for him, but what he has done for us.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Paul,
I know I have been through this before, you just make us repeat ourselves.

I make us repeat?? let's slow down a little.

Shelb5 said:

Exactly. By the grace of Christ- not of your own choice to have faith, that would be a work. His merits are given to you in baptism and that includes faith- it is a gift. In a dead state of being you can not have faith, its a gift, how are you going to have faith if you are not redeemed first and given grace? How are you going to be saved if you are not redeemed?​

...So basically here i don't even have to believe to be baptized. Notice you said "Faith is a gift" which you also said was given AT water baptism,,,

An then Shelb5 said:

Once you “believe” you are baptized and through this mystery you are G-I-V-E-N, as in freely given faith, hope and love and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You did N-O-T-H-I-N-G to earn this, God gave you the grace you needed to come to believe and you followed His calling to be “saved” as in redeemed by receiving the free gift of Jesus Christ’s merits in baptism.​

......now i need to believe and get baptized, but i can't actually believe in my "dead state of being" without first being baptized.

I was just looking for clarification...

Shelb5:

NOW… take all the verse you have and NOW apply them in this context. Go ahead- believe with your heart and confess with your lips Jesus is lord and YOU will be saved because you have been justified by the blood of the Lamb to be saved if you do as Christ said​

......But there's no water in this "road to salvation", does the justification come from water which has been made possible BY the blood of the lamb?

 

[@@Paul@@]

You're not baptized?

Does it matter?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

You're not baptized

a better question is have you believed that Christ Jesus did everything for your salvation with his act on the cross and afterwards ... 1cor 15:3-4

since then when one believes He is baptized by the spirit into the body of Christ
1 cor 12:13

 

[@@Paul@@]

a better question is have you believed that Christ Jesus did everything for your salvation with his act on the cross and afterwards ... 1cor 15:3-4

since then when one believes He is baptized by the spirit into the body of Christ 1 cor 12:13

.............oh yes, i've received that baptism.

 

[Benedicta00]

a better question is have you believed that Christ Jesus did everything for your salvation with his act on the cross and afterwards ... 1cor 15:3-4

since then when one believes He is baptized by the spirit into the body of Christ
1 cor 12:13

Where does the bible say that? Seriously, I want to know where the bible says that all you have to do is believe in the cross and that belief regenerates you and we refer to that as “baptism"? That is a work and you can not work for redemption, it is free.

 

[Benedicta00]

Does it matter?

Yeah- because then you are not born again.

 

[Benedicta00]

...

 

[Benedicta00]

I make us repeat?? let's slow down a little.

Shelb5 said:

Exactly. By the grace of Christ- not of your own choice to have faith, that would be a work. His merits are given to you in baptism and that includes faith- it is a gift. In a dead state of being you can not have faith, its a gift, how are you going to have faith if you are not redeemed first and given grace? How are you going to be saved if you are not redeemed?​

...So basically here i don't even have to believe to be baptized. Notice you said "Faith is a gift" which you also said was given AT water baptism,,,

Yep. You are given faith but in seed form, it must grow into L-I-V-I-N-G FAITH See James, if you will be saved IN THE END. You always have the free will to reject this if you chose as well.

You can respond to the grace that God affords you that causes you to come to believe you are in need of redemption when you cooperate with God's preveinent grace that he affords all of us to come to believe and be saved, IN THE END.

This coming to believe is NOT a living faith- faith that saves, IN THE END. Even the demons believe and tremble, See James. There is a difference in just believing and having living faith. You can believe and even believe and be redeemed and not do a darn thing, that is dead faith, See James, rejecting God’s grace. You must have a LIVING faith if you will be saved. In baptism we are G-I-V-E-N this type of faith but we must animate this faith with true good works that come from the heart from a true love of God, not just give Him lip service by going through the motions, if this will become a living faith that saves and then we must persevere in this faith if we will be saved in the end. I say saves as in saves me when I die, not as in a up front event, a done deal.

An then Shelb5 said:

Once you “believe” you are baptized and through this mystery you are G-I-V-E-N, as in freely given faith, hope and love and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You did N-O-T-H-I-N-G to earn this, God gave you the grace you needed to come to believe and you followed His calling to be “saved” as in redeemed by receiving the free gift of Jesus Christ’s merits in baptism.​

......now i need to believe and get baptized, but i can't actually believe in my "dead state of being" without first being baptized.

I was just looking for clarification...

No, you can come to believe by the prevenient grace of God- not on your own- that you are a worthless sinner in need of the grace and mercy of Christ. This is not what redeems you, just coming to the realization that you are a sinner who needs to be not only forgiven for his sins but be reconciled back to God for being born to a race who cut themselves off from grace. Being redeemed because you believe you are a sinner in need of mercy would be earning the redemption, and you can't earn redemption from original sin, it is freely given to those who come to believe they need it. Get the difference? If you believe you need it, then God grants if freely through the mystery of baptism.

"Believe and be baptized." You have a real problem and you know it, the bible never- not once goes on to say that this belief regenerates you and the water baptism is a outward sign of that. The bible says the opposite, that baptism now saves you and it never ever says that this is some other kind of baptism besides water. The name baptism mean to be immersed with water.

Shelb5:

NOW… take all the verse you have and NOW apply them in this context. Go ahead- believe with your heart and confess with your lips Jesus is lord and YOU will be saved because you have been justified by the blood of the Lamb to be saved if you do as Christ said​

......But there's no water in this "road to salvation", does the justification come from water which has been made possible BY the blood of the lamb?

Why did John come baptizing with water? Why did Jesus say we are born again by water and the Spirit? Why did Jesus receive a baptism with water? Why did He perform many miracles and healing using the imagery of washing with water and changing water into wine? Why does the bible include the fact that water and blood came from His side on the cross? No water in the road to salvation? Really? And no, the water itself does not save, God does, I wish you would stop with the straw. God saved us “through the bath of rebirth, not because of any righteous deed we have done.” That is sooo clear. If you can not be happy with that, this is what He chose then take it up with Him. He chooses to use water as the sign that He is working through this means, I don't know why, maybe because water is symbolic for life and us being clean? We would die without water and be real dirty?? I don't know exactly why he chose it, but I do know that he did.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Water ....what ???

It The Blood That Sets Us Free......