Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

[Benedicta00]

...

 

[Benedicta00]

Because it's a loaded question and we've all been down this road before... and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If you think water will save you, get baptized. as many times as possible.

Total straw and obviously you have not really learned anything from myself or any of the other posters here. NO ONE believes it is the water that saves… You present such a starw with this.

.

.you should not tale my word. you should not tale anyones word for it.

So I should rely on self interpretation, ignore the history of the Church and the ECF- so truth will then be personal and subjective to what I want it to be... gotcha, thanks.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Total straw and obviously you have not really learned anything from myself or any of the other posters here. NO ONE believes it is the water that saves… You present such a starw with this.

Maybe i misunderstood then.

If i don't get baptized EVER, am i saved?

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven​

Perhaps you missed what things needed to be reconciled. I don't believe the monkeys in the zoo needed to be reconciled for our sins, but maybe I'm reading this wrong.

Ever read a greek dictionary?

Yup!

From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550

But perhaps you're correct. Maybe that command was just for that time period. So much for preaching the Gospel!

Wups?!? No, not buying it. Jesus said to go and preach the Gospel and baptize the world. I suppose you're trying to tell me that they were only to preach to the people in that age????

Matt. 28:19 - Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

If i don't get baptized EVER, am i saved?

We are baptized for the remission of sins.

Matt. 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

[Michael.C.Hadley]

Hey all i just want to thank each and every one of you for posting. this is the longest running thread i have now i think i'll put a poll up so we can vote.I'm going to leave this up forever i hope

 

[Michael.C.Hadley]

i'mm gonna place the poll in the polls form

 

[Michael.C.Hadley]

or not i'll just post it here in theology

 

[Ainesis]

Hey there Paul!

I think the assumption here is that the 11 were not really sure what (or who) to go to.

No. I am saying that there is no evidence that they had complete knowledge of what this commission entailed.

IOW, the fact that they only ministered to the Jews until God spoke to Peter is not proof that Jesus was not including the Gentiles in the great commission. That conclusion is based on your assumption that there was some unspoken understanding between Jesus and the disciples whereby this was restricted to the Jews only. I don't see any evidence of that in Scripture.

Jesus Christ knew what He was doing, so did the Apostle Paul…. But Peter and the 11 somehow missed the point for the first ten chapters?

I never said they missed the point. I am saying that the breadth of what was encompassed in the great commission may not have been apparent to them at the time it was given. They would still have had to go to the Jew first, so this lack of knowledge would not have affected God's plan in anyway.

Peter was taught by the best bible teacher ever. Jesus even “opened their understanding, that they might understand” the things pertaining about Him, from the Law, the prophets and in the psalms (the entire OT)… We have no reason to believe Peter knew exactly what he was doing and who to go to… There was not assumption.

I agree that they had the best teacher ever. Yet, it is also clear from Scripture that they did not always understand nor have a complete picture of everything Jesus taught them at the time it was taught.

Even the opening of their understanding that you reference was not a complete understanding in terms of everything that God has planned or else it would not have been such a debate out reaching out to the Gentiles later.

I think it is shows Peter’s mission was a continuation of our Lord’s earthly ministry.

This shows the beginning of the 11’s ministry; notice how our Lord’s earthly ministry began…

…He received the Spirit from the Father, just as He gave the Spirit to the twelve.

Okay.

I think world is not a reference to the globe, but an age. Jesus will be with them always, no matter what happens, even until the end of this age (when it may look like, He is not).

That makes sense, afterall the Greek here is aion. But are you trying to say that the age covered in the Great Commission has come to an end?

And what about nations (Ethnos)? A multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together; a company, troop, swarm; a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus, the human family; a tribe, nation, people group; in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles; Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians. I don't see anything in the term nations that would be relevant or limiting to Jews only.

Well, every time there is a reference to Jews being first, Gentiles are second. My point here is, this is not a reference to the ministry of Peter going to the Jews first (or Christ for that matter)… Paul is the only one that says this… Everywhere Paul goes, he always went to the Jew first, and then he turned to the gentile. That is what it means by “Jew first, and also…”. Paul always went to the Jew first… Until Acts 28:28.

Which still doesn't mean that the Jesus was not including the Gentiles when He gave the Great Commission.

Regardless of whether gentiles were clean or unclean,,, Peter still believed it to be unlawful, until Acts 10. AND no God didn’t have to tell peter anything, He didn’t tell Peter that a little sinner named Paul would be going to the gentiles...
…….and yes, he told Peter what he needed to know, at that point (Peter did have the keys), and Peter used them to open the door to the Gentiles as instructed by God. We can assume, that door was not opened, until this point in time.

Which does not mean that Jesus was not including the Gentiles in the Great Commission, knowing that the doors would in fact be opened.

OK, they were limited in their understanding because…. Ready… because they did not need to know… Peter was not sent to the Gentiles, so he didn’t need to know… only because of unbelief where the gentiles brought in prior to the nation being restored. And it was the Apostle Paul that went to the gentiles… not Peter.

Which does not mean that Jesus was not including the Gentiles in the Great Commission.

The 11 knew everything they needed to know,,, Maybe God should have told them right off the bat their mission would be a failure and the nation would soon (30+ years later) be blinded in unbelief?

Their mission certainly was not a failure Paul. Everyone who was to be saved, has been saved. And as you know, the blinding of Israel is only for a time.

I do understand where you’re coming from… I stood at that line for most of my life. The only reasonable explanation I’ve ever heard is: “They just didn’t understand that this command was for all people.”… When in fact we should say “Why did Peter only go to the Gentiles…”

"Only" in what context? I am not sure what you mean here.

“why did the gentiles always receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized”?

I don't know that they did. Are you saying this is true?

think it my turn to keep you on your toes...

Well, if I can't count on you brother, who can I count on?

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hey there Paul!
No. I am saying that there is no evidence that they had complete knowledge of what this commission entailed.

IOW, the fact that they only ministered to the Jews until God spoke to Peter is not proof that Jesus was not including the Gentiles in the great commission. That conclusion is based on your assumption that there was some unspoken understanding between Jesus and the disciples whereby this was restricted to the Jews only. I don't see any evidence of that in Scripture.

Hum, But wouldn’t you also be assuming that is was also to the gentiles? Paul was the Jew who was sent to the Gentiles, not Peter…. And Paul was not sent to “baptize”. Peter was sent baptizing.

Act 10:36-37 KJV
(36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
(37) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;​

……..Peter says the word was sent unto the “children of Israel” AND it had been the same word since John the Baptist came on the scene.

Act 10:42-43 KJV
(42) And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
(43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.​

……..Peter was commanded to preach, unto the people. I don’t think it’s an assumption to say Peter knew exactly who to preach to.

Gal 2:7-8 KJV
(7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(8) (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )​

…as I’m sure you know, apostleship means “commission” which means “appointed to, or sent to”. Peter was the “one sent” to the circumcision. Am I still assuming?

Act 11:18-19 KJV
(18) When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
(19) Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.​

The word was going to the Jews only… coincidence?..... Here’s where the Jew first gospel comes into play.

Act 26:19-20 KJV
(19) Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
(20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.​

…Only after going to X amount of places, preaching to the Jews,,, did Paul THEN go to the gentiles. Was Paul talking about Gentiles doing “works meet for repentance”?

I never said they missed the point. I am saying that the breadth of what was encompassed in the great commission may not have been apparent to them at the time it was given. They would still have had to go to the Jew first, so this lack of knowledge would not have affected God's plan in anyway.

I agree that they had the best teacher ever. Yet, it is also clear from Scripture that they did not always understand nor have a complete picture of everything Jesus taught them at the time it was taught.

Even the opening of their understanding that you reference was not a complete understanding in terms of everything that God has planned or else it would not have been such a debate out reaching out to the Gentiles later.

I have to believe that the bible gives us ALL the information we need to find a conclusion in this matter, If the Apostles were told, but didn’t understand, I would think we could find it… Instead I find, they didn’t understand, because they were not told to do it…. The only assumption is that they “should have” or “it did include gentiles” because it’s pretty clear, Peter was sent to the Jews…

Okay.

That makes sense, afterall the Greek here is aion. But are you trying to say that the age covered in the Great Commission has come to an end?

NO,, this age will come to an end at the close of the Great Tribulation. Which is why I think it was a reference to Jesus being with them through all their future suffering. (and ours today)

And what about nations (Ethnos)? A multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together; a company, troop, swarm; a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus, the human family; a tribe, nation, people group; in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles; Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians. I don't see anything in the term nations that would be relevant or limiting to Jews only.

Which still doesn't mean that the Jesus was not including the Gentiles when He gave the Great Commission.

Which does not mean that Jesus was not including the Gentiles in the Great Commission, knowing that the doors would in fact be opened.

Which does not mean that Jesus was not including the Gentiles in the Great Commission.

I think you made your point… LOL… If the doors were not open, how can you say it included Gentiles? (that's a bigger assumtion than mine ) I think when you put everything together; it’s not an assumption.

"Only" in what context? I am not sure what you mean here.

Opps. I should have said: I do understand where you’re coming from… I stood at that line for most of my life. The only reasonable explanation I’ve ever heard is: “They just didn’t understand that this command was for all people.”… When in fact we should ASK “Why did Peter only go to the JEWS…”

I don't know that they did. Are you saying this is true?

Well, if I can't count on you brother, who can I count on?

Yes, Gentiles received the Holy Ghost as soon as they believe… Just like today!!

Act 10:44-47 KJV
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?​

………We only need to believe; If the “Great Commission” was to everyone, why this change? Some might use this as an argument…

Act 19:3-4 KJV
(3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.​

...Let me ask this, whom did John the Baptist baptize?

Keep ‘em coming!!

 

[Michael.C.Hadley]

i came across a verse in matthew that said something to the effect of you have to be baptized to go to heaven.I'm still not sure weather or not you have to(i'm still wading through these posts) But please keep posting

 

[Ainesis]

Hum, But wouldn’t you also be assuming that is was also to the gentiles?

Yes! But that is my point. Anything we surmise about what was meant or who was included is an assumption unless we can prove it from Scripture. So that is why I am asking what evidence there is that the Gentiles were excluded from Jesus' command to go into all nations?

…..Peter says the word was sent unto the “children of Israel” AND it had been the same word since John the Baptist came on the scene.

Yes, but being sent "to" Israel is not the same thing as being sent "for" Israel, is it? He could still be sent "to" Israel with a message and a covenant "for" all people.

……..Peter was commanded to preach, unto the people. I don’t think it’s an assumption to say Peter knew exactly who to preach to.

I am not so sure. Look at Acts 10:28, "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

It seems from this verse that Peter considered the Gentiles to belong to a different nation than that of the Jews. Therefore, if the Jews considered themselves to be a nation unto themselves, then Jesus' command to go to all nations would likely include the Gentiles.

However, look also at Acts 10:34-35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

It is at this point that Peter gained more complete insight into whom God was sending the disciples to. It was at this time that Peter "perceived" or understood that those in every nation could be received by Him.

A few verses earlier, Peter believes that Jews are forbidden by law from keeping company with one of another nation. But after hearing Cornelius' testimony (regarding the angelic visitation) Peter "perceives" that those in every (or all) nations can receive the Gospel.

…as I’m sure you know, apostleship means “commission” which means “appointed to, or sent to”. Peter was the “one sent” to the circumcision.

But that does not mean that Jesus' commission to all disciples was only to the Jews. Further, it doesn't mean that Peter's commission was only to the Jews (as seen with Cornelius) just primarily to the Jews.

…Only after going to X amount of places, preaching to the Jews,,, did Paul THEN go to the gentiles. Was Paul talking about Gentiles doing “works meet for repentance”?

Well for one, it seems that Paul is saying here that going to the Gentiles was part of the Heavenly vision. From what we see here, it was just that they went to the Jews first. I still don't see how that excludes the Gentiles from the great Commission.

Also, I think Paul is speaking of both Jews and gentiles needing to do works meet for repentence. That is similar to the message given by John the Baptist. Maybe I am missing your point?

Instead I find, they didn’t understand, because they were not told to do it…. The only assumption is that they “should have” or “it did include gentiles” because it’s pretty clear, Peter was sent to the Jews…

Maybe there is a slight misunderstanding here. I am not saying that Jesus told the disciples to go to the Gentiles and they didn't because they didn't understand what He meant.

I am saying that Jesus told the disciples to preach unto all nations, and in this command He literally meant that they would preach to all nations, including Gentiles. But because of the Jewish law, it never occured to the disciples that Gentiles would be included in this commission and as such they didn't approach the Gentiles until God specifically addressed it. Yet, this was all in accordance with God's plan, because the Gospel was to go to the Jew first anyhow.

Jesus' commands in the Great Commission and His instructions to them were to last until the end of that age (which we agree is still in affect). And Jesus also knew that His disciples would in fact be preaching to the Gentiles during that timeframe. As such, it would make sense that the Gentiles were included in "all nations" even if the disciples did not initially understand it to be so.

I think you made your point… LOL… If the doors were not open, how can you say it included Gentiles? (that's a bigger assumtion than mine )

Because Jesus was giving them instructions lo last until the end of the age and He knew that the Gentiles would have the Gospel preached unto them during that time. (Wow! You're admitting that yours is an assumption? )

Opps. I should have said: I do understand where you’re coming from… I stood at that line for most of my life. The only reasonable explanation I’ve ever heard is: “They just didn’t understand that this command was for all people.”… When in fact we should ASK “Why did Peter only go to the JEWS…”

Peter didn't go only to the Jews (i.e. Cornelius), he went primarily to the Jews.

………We only need to believe; If the “Great Commission” was to everyone, why this change? Some might use this as an argument
...Let me ask this, whom did John the Baptist baptize?

Now I have to admit, I don't get this whole baptism correlation. Do you want to PM me with some info so as to not bore everyone else with my ignorance in this area? LOL

 

[@@Paul@@]

Man you're good!! LOL
.......and fun to study with too i might add.

Yes! But that is my point. Anything we surmise about what was meant or who was included is an assumption unless we can prove it from Scripture. So that is why I am asking what evidence there is that the Gentiles were excluded from Jesus' command to go into all nations?

Yes, but being sent "to" Israel is not the same thing as being sent "for" Israel, is it? He could still be sent "to" Israel with a message and a covenant "for" all people.

OK, but you are again “assuming” the New Covenant was made with Gentiles.

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,​

Because of the eternal purpose of God, we know that He was indeed sent FOR our benefit. But that does NOT mean His earthly ministry or His heavenly ministry (or Peter’s for that matter) was FOR Gentiles too…. Paul was brought in to go to the Gentiles.

I am not so sure. Look at Acts 10:28, "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

It seems from this verse that Peter considered the Gentiles to belong to a different nation than that of the Jews. Therefore, if the Jews considered themselves to be a nation unto themselves, then Jesus' command to go to all nations would likely include the Gentiles.

This sounds like the “the Lord is my Sheppard, Israel the sheep, and therefore I am Israel” argument. …….

However, look also at Acts 10:34-35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

It is at this point that Peter gained more complete insight into whom God was sending the disciples to. It was at this time that Peter "perceived" or understood that those in every nation could be received by Him.

A few verses earlier, Peter believes that Jews are forbidden by law from keeping company with one of another nation. But after hearing Cornelius' testimony (regarding the angelic visitation) Peter "perceives" that those in every (or all) nations can receive the Gospel.

But that does not mean that Jesus' commission to all disciples was only to the Jews. Further, it doesn't mean that Peter's commission was only to the Jews (as seen with Cornelius) just primarily to the Jews.

Peter didn’t just believe, He said it was unlawful… as in, it was still unlawful. If anyone would first know when it wasn't unlawful, i would guess Peter...
So we agree ”the great commission” was to Jews, at least until this point in time? ......... You're saying it was a secret, further revealed later?

There is no proof that Gentiles were included IN the great commission, BUT there is plenty of scripture, which say they “might not have been”.
Peter was given the “key to the kingdom”,,, His ministry to Cornelius was the second use of those keys.
……remember, the keys are symbolic of “opening and closing” something.

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.​

…Peter was told to open the doors to the Gentiles just as he reopened the door to the jews.

Well for one, it seems that Paul is saying here that going to the Gentiles was part of the Heavenly vision. From what we see here, it was just that they went to the Jews first. I still don't see how that excludes the Gentiles from the great Commission.

Also, I think Paul is speaking of both Jews and gentiles needing to do works meet for repentence. That is similar to the message given by John the Baptist. Maybe I am missing your point?

yes it is similar,,, What was John the Baptist preaching?? ...the same as Jesus Christ,,, and again the same as Peter,,, "repent!! the kingdom of heaven is at hand"... the Paul was referring to the Jews needing to do “works meet for repentance”. The gentiles were brought in to expedite those works through jealously… i.e. provoke “new life” into the tree. Paul is again explaining why gentiles were brought in at this time.

Maybe there is a slight misunderstanding here. I am not saying that Jesus told the disciples to go to the Gentiles and they didn't because they didn't understand what He meant.

I am saying that Jesus told the disciples to preach unto all nations, and in this command He literally meant that they would preach to all nations, including Gentiles. But because of the Jewish law, it never occured to the disciples that Gentiles would be included in this commission and as such they didn't approach the Gentiles until God specifically addressed it. Yet, this was all in accordance with God's plan, because the Gospel was to go to the Jew first anyhow.

….OK, I see now. But we simply don’t know, so we can only assume it is still a Jewish ministry until we learn otherwise. Which was not until Acts 10. Gentiles were clearly brought in at this time... and Paul was then specifically sent TO them.

Jesus' commands in the Great Commission and His instructions to them were to last until the end of that age (which we agree is still in affect). And Jesus also knew that His disciples would in fact be preaching to the Gentiles during that timeframe. As such, it would make sense that the Gentiles were included in "all nations" even if the disciples did not initially understand it to be so.

Because Jesus was giving them instructions lo last until the end of the age and He knew that the Gentiles would have the Gospel preached unto them during that time. (Wow! You're admitting that yours is an assumption? )

An assumption? I think I said assumtion…

Peter didn't go only to the Jews (i.e. Cornelius), he went primarily to the Jews.

Can you show me another example? ……. Peter was given the mission to go to the circumcision, and the authority to let gentiles in.

Now I have to admit, I don't get this whole baptism correlation. Do you want to PM me with some info so as to not bore everyone else with my ignorance in this area? LOL

John the Baptist baptized only Jews… The message had not changed, why would the audience?

Again, Peter preached baptism BEFORE receiving the Spirit… And that’s exactly what happened. Gentiles receive the Spirit BEFORE baptism… A little different.

OK,,, PM's are fine, but i still think this is on topic... IF Peter's ministry was to the Jews, Baptism WAS neccessary for the salvation of the nation of Israel. Water Baptism was also neccessary to receive the Spirit (which regenerates) if you were a Jew (at least prior to Acts 10)...

Gentiles were never preached "be baptized, to be saved".

Paul even said he was not sent to baptise, and we know for a fact Peter was commanded and sent to baptise.

Two different gospels (at least until Isreal was temporarily placed aside)...

 

[@@Paul@@]

i came across a verse in matthew that said something to the effect of you have to be baptized to go to heaven.I'm still not sure weather or not you have to(i'm still wading through these posts) But please keep posting

Which heaven?? there's three of 'em............

 

[Ainesis]

Man you're good!!

No. LOL! Just serious. I take the Lord very seriously, so I constantly seek and ask so that He can give me the proper understanding.

OK, but you are again “assuming” the New Covenant was made with Gentiles.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,
Because of the eternal purpose of God, we know that He was indeed sent FOR our benefit. But that does NOT mean His earthly ministry or His heavenly ministry (or Peter’s for that matter) was FOR Gentiles too…. Paul was brought in to go to the Gentiles.

Yes, I am assuming that until A. I can prove it to be factual or B. you prove otherwise.

Man you're good!! LOLThis sounds like the “the Lord is my Sheppard, Israel the sheep, and therefore I am Israel” argument. …

No, no, no... I was merely saying that Peter stated how it was unlawful for a Jew to come unto one of another nation. "Another nation" seems to reference any nation other than the Jews. Therefore, if Jesus said to go to all nations (not just their own) it would seem to include the Gentiles.

I am not trying to establish doctrine on this. The text is not explicit enough for that. I just thouth the inferences were interesting.

Peter didn’t just believe, He said it was unlawful… as in, it was still unlawful. If anyone would first know when it wasn't unlawful, i would guess Peter...

Yes, it was unlawful according to Jewish law. But God overturned that law. The question in part is when did God overturn that law? And even irrespective of that, couldn't Jesus (knowing the law would be overturned) have given His disciples instructions that included the gentiles (since these instructions were to last until the end of the age)?

So we agree ”the great commission” was to Jews, at least until this point in time? ......... You're saying it was a secret, further revealed later?

I would say that the great commission was to all disciples for all time until the end of the age. However, the commission would be given first to the Jews, then the Gentiles.

There is no proof that Gentiles were included IN the great commission, BUT there is plenty of scripture, which say they “might not have been”.

Okay. While I am not sure it is sound to establish a doctrine on a "might not have been" I am interested in seeing the texts that you believe support the exclusion of the Gentiles from the great commission.

Peter was given the “key to the kingdom”,,, His ministry to Cornelius was the second use of those keys.


……remember, the keys are symbolic of “opening and closing” something.

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.​

…Peter was told to open the doors to the Gentiles just as he reopened the door to the jews.

I agree that Peter was the first to introduce the Gospel of salvation to the Jews and to the Gentiles. I do not believe however, that these keys are related to Isaiah 22:22. However, that is a different discussion. If you have some additional info on that, please PM me.

. ….OK, I see now. But we simply don’t know, so we can only assume it is still a Jewish ministry until we learn otherwise. Which was not until Acts 10. Gentiles were clearly brought in at this time... and Paul was then specifically sent TO them.

But that's just it, we simply don't know. You say we have to assume it was still a Jewish ministry, but I don't know that it was ever only a Jewish ministry. I do agree that He was sent to the Jews, but I don't think it was only for the Jews.

.John the Baptist baptized only Jews… The message had not changed, why would the audience
Again, Peter preached baptism BEFORE receiving the Spirit… And that’s exactly what happened. Gentiles receive the Spirit BEFORE baptism… A little different.

OK,,, PM's are fine, but i still think this is on topic... IF Peter's ministry was to the Jews, Baptism WAS neccessary for the salvation of the nation of Israel. Water Baptism was also neccessary to receive the Spirit (which regenerates) if you were a Jew (at least prior to Acts 10)...

Gentiles were never preached "be baptized, to be saved".

Paul even said he was not sent to baptise, and we know for a fact Peter was commanded and sent to baptise.

Two different gospels (at least until Isreal was temporarily placed aside)...

You don't have to PM me. I just didn't want to waste other people's time having you explain something that may have already been discussed since I joined the conversation late. If you think it would be beneficial to post here, please do.

Thanks Paul!

 

[@@Paul@@]

I think we should just stop.... we scared everyone off!!

 

[Ainesis]

I think we should just stop.... we scared everyone off!!

Scared everyone off? Were there other people in this thread?

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Great googelie-moogelie! I go to work and then come home to this? Alright, after Bible study I'll come home and read all of this.

Thanks for the participation Ainesis!

 

[Ainesis]

Great googelie-moogelie! I go to work and then come home to this? Alright, after Bible study I'll come home and read all of this.

Thanks for the participation Ainesis!

Well that'll teach you to take a break from the forum! How dare you presume to have a life?!

Welcome back and I look forward to your thoughts!

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Paul even said he was not sent to baptise, and we know for a fact Peter was commanded and sent to baptise.

I hear this one quite a bit. Paul wasn't saying that baptism wasn't necessary. He was addressing the problem that certain members of the church had. As Paul explains, certain members were enamored with who baptized them. Paul proves this with the fact that he can only remember but a few people he had baptized in the time he had stayed there. No, Paul is not down playing the importance of baptism here.

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

I have to say Paul, your argument is taking a different form, but it's still interesting. I think I should take a break from the argument for awhile and study what has been posted. That way I can jump back in and debate. I still have a hard time following where you're going with your argument, but I suppose I just need to really try to solidify it. I sometimes think you're making it more complicated than it really should be. Perhaps time and studying will prove me wrong.

In the meantime, I think Ainesis is doing a wonderful job at giving you a run for your money (better than I can in fact!). Best of luck until I return to this thread Ainesis. God bless everyone.