Baptisim

[QuantaCura]

I thought to post in these forums we have to believe in "one Baptism for the remission of sins."

 

[ScottBot]

I thought to post in these forums we have to believe in "one Baptism for the remission of sins."

It is part of the Nicene Creed, which we are required to submit to to be considered Christian.

 

[constance]

Where in the bible or anywhere else for that matter can I find Jesus or anyone else for that matter before the reformation teaching us that it's a public statement? Where does that premise come from? It’s only about 500 years old.

Here are several early church writers where people are making public statements of their faith. They are also all believers (not infants).

Constance

Justin Martyr, "First Apology" (AD 150)

"And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone."

Hippolytus, 3rd Century AD

“When the person being baptized goes down into the water, he who baptizes him, putting his hand on him, shall say: ‘Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty?’ And the person being baptized shall say: ‘I believe.’ Then holding his hand on his head, he shall baptize him once. And then he shall say: ‘Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was born of the Virgin Mary, and was crucified inder Pontius Pilate, and was dead and buried, and rose again the third day, alive from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead?’ And when he says: ‘I believe,’ he is baptized again. And again he shall say: ‘Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, in the holy church, and the resurrection of the body?’ The person being baptized shall say: ‘I believe,’ and then he is baptized a third time.”

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles”, Book 7, Section 3 C. 400 AD

I renounce Satan, and his works, and his pomps, and his worships, and his angels, and his inventions, and all things that are under him.

 

[ScottBot]

Here are early church fathers making public statements about the validity, necessity, and historicity of baptising infants.

"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Irenaeus - Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (Hippolytus - The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Origen - Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

"If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (Cyprian of Carthage - Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

 

[seekingpurity047]

The why do it? Rather why did Jesus tell his apostles to go do it?

What would be the point in sending the apostles out to do something that didn’t have any effect on salvation?

Baptism is a public declaration of our relationship with Jesus Christ. It is not necessary for salvation. Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." Jn 3:16. This is pretty clear cut, no baptism necessary.

So, why would Jesus command it? Well, why would Jesus command us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Is that necessary for salvation? Gosh! I hope not, becuase otherwise, we are all going to hell, since we sin everyday.

Think about the robber next to Him on the cross. Are you willing to say that that man did not go to paradise that very day with Jesus Christ? I mean, he wasn't baptised, was he? I don't think so. Of course, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, that man must have gone to purgatory for several thousand years *sigh*, thus making Jesus a liar.

Thus proving that baptism is not necessary for salvation. All that is necessary for salvation is to "repent and believe the gospel." Mk. 1:15, for salvation is by Grace Alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.

To the glory of God alone,

Randy

 

[ThreeAM]

The why do it? Rather why did Jesus tell his apostles to go do it?

What would be the point in sending the apostles out to do something that didn’t have any effect on salvation?

Do you wash feet?

John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. .

 

[Tonks]

Do you wash feet?

[/b]

On Maundy Thursday, yes.

Hate to break the news to you (plural) but the salvific message is more than Jn 3:16

 

[Benedicta00]

Do you wash feet?

[/B]

Sure do but it's not a sacrament- this is what y'all are having trouble understanding.

 

[ThreeAM]

Sure do but it's not a sacrament- this is what y'all are having trouble understanding.

Interesting. Its a command from Christ so is it optional? What in your opinion makes it not a sacrament?

 

[Benedicta00]

Interesting. Its a command from Christ so is it optional? What in your opinion makes it not a sacrament?

The two are different, if they aren’t, you will have to show me that.

Baptism along with the other sacraments are what Jesus instituted in order to receive his grace.

Washing feet is not a sacrament, we were not asked to do it so we can receive grace from it, but we do it as memorial and I don't think I said it was optional. It is done on the last Thursady during lent, the same night Jesus did it on.

 

[Tonks]

Baptism along with the other sacraments are what Jesus instituted in order to receive his grace.

This is exactly correct.

Protestants that lack sacramental theology are often troubled by the sacramental aspect that communicates grace to the recipient and that they are certainly not just reminders or symbols of grace.

I should edit this to note that God can and does give grace to men without any external sign or ceremony. Truth notes that, God determined the most suitable method of imparting grace to men, who are at the same time spiritual and corpreal. Under the New Law: Signum sacro sanctum efficax gratiae (a sacrosanct sign producing grace).

Within Luther's somewhat novel theology there is no need for actual sacraments as man is not sanctified by an interior renovation of grace which will blot out his sins, but rather by an extrinsic imputation through the merits of Christ which leaves little room for signs that cause grace.

 

[ThreeAM]

The two are different, if they aren’t, you will have to show me that.

Baptism along with the other sacraments are what Jesus instituted in order to receive his grace.

Washing feet is not a sacrament, we were not asked to do it so we can receive grace from it, but we do it as memorial and I don't think I said it was optional. It is done on the last Thursady during lent, the same night Jesus did it on.

Seems like Christ told Peter that he wouldn't recieve grace if he refused to participate in foot washing. Christ commanded foot washing just like he did baptism and the Lord's Supper.

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 13 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you

17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them

 

[Benedicta00]

Here are several early church writers where people are making public statements of their faith. They are also all believers (not infants).

Constance

Justin Martyr, "First Apology" (AD 150)


Hippolytus, 3rd Century AD


Constitutions of the Holy Apostles”, Book 7, Section 3 C. 400 AD

Umm, have you read the quotes closely? You have taken them out of context and they do not say at all that baptism is only a ordnance that we do in order to say to the world we have already been born again.

They say that baptism is what washed them clean. They say that through the proper form and matter of baptism, i.e. the ritual and the water, their sns are remitted and they “become the children of choice and knowledge.” Which is children of God.

Read Justin Martyr a little more closely, no mention of “I’m dong this to profess what has already been done.” Surly you can see where he is saying it is through baptism he is forgiven.


And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone."

 

[BereanWorkman]

There are many baptisms in the bible, and if one studies it out, there are over 10.

The question people must be asking themselves is, what baptism will actually put a person "into Christ"

1 COR 12:13

 

[Benedicta00]

Seems like Christ told Peter that he wouldn't recieve grace if he refused to participate in foot washing. Christ commanded foot washing just like he did baptism and the Lord's Supper.

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 13 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you

17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them

I think Jesus was just giving them an example to follow that them being apostles and all and not Pharisees that they will be serving one another and the head apostle, Peter, will be nothing more than a servant to the rest, as Jesus himself came to us a servant.

 

[ThreeAM]

I think Jesus was just giving them an example to follow that them being apostles and all and not Pharisees that they will be serving one another and the head apostle, Peter, will be nothing more than a servant to the rest, as Jesus himself came to us a servant.

Do you think they disobeyed Christ? Or do you think they did what he asked? Are not we all servants of our Master?

 

[Benedicta00]

There are many baptisms in the bible, and if one studies it out, there are over 10.

The question people must be asking themselves is, what baptism will actually put a person "into Christ"

1 COR 12:13

Yeah, but they're not all sacraments that were designed by God to regenerate you. Only three types do that, water, blood and desire.

 

[Benedicta00]

Do you think they disobeyed Christ? Or do you think they did what he asked? Are not we all servants of our Master?

So we don't get off track. The washing of the feet was something Jesus did, he was teaching them by showing them that they, who will be the head of the Church on earth are to serve, not be served.

So the persists at Mass on this night will do that as a reminder and to reenact that night, they do it to obey Christ that they are here to serve, not be served. They will wash the feet of the laity on the altar as a way to give expression to this.

This is not a sacrament and doing something in rememberance and obedience does not a sacrament make, it is not what a sacrament is/does. A sacrament is a sign that points to a reality that God is working.

Jesus was not giving a measure of his sanctifying grace to them in order to advance them in holiness or to incorporate them into himself initially. All he was doing was telling them through his own example of doing it, if you expect to be served you can’t be my disciple.

 

[constance]

Infant baptism is an early Church heresy that has never been addressed by the Catholic Church.

There aren't any infants baptized in the Bible. The bible is very clear that faith precipitates baptism.

Constance

 

[ThreeAM]

So we don't get off track. The washing of the feet was something Jesus did, he was teaching them by showing them that they, who will be the head of the Church on earth are to serve, not be served.

So the persists at Mass on this night will do that as a reminder and to reenact that night, they do it to obey Christ that they are here to serve, not be served. They will wash the feet of the laity on the altar as a way to give expression to this.

This is not a sacrament and doing something in rememberance and obedience does not a sacrament make, it is not what a sacrament is/does. A sacrament is a sign that points to a reality that God is working.

Jesus was not giving a measure of his sanctifying grace to them in order to advance them in holiness or to incorporate them into himself initially. All he was doing was telling them through his own example of doing it, if you expect to be served you can’t be my disciple.

He was also telling they had to serve others just as we are to serve others today.

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 13 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you

Foot washing or the odinance of humility was designed to help prevent pride from rising within the church. If it was important enough that Christ [God] washed feet it is important enough that we should follow His footsteps and His direct command. We are all servants. The puting away of human pride is part of the process of sanctification.


1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Pro 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.