Baptisim

[ThirdDay3337]

Still like to be showed how you know its baptism of the spirit...no one has showed me how they got that.

And no I didnt switch the words around in Acts 2:38..i copied and pasted straight from NKJ. Also it nevers says just to repent.

Does it matte whether it is baptism by the spirit or water, as long as the person is baptized?

Brother in Christ,
Luke

 

[Stinker]

Does it matte whether it is baptism by the spirit or water, as long as the person is baptized?

Brother in Christ,
Luke

Many people have been taught that one must be water baptized in order to have their sins forgiven, and many others have been taught that there must be the evidence of 'speaking in tongues' as having been baptized in the Holy Spirit thereby receiving the forgiveness of sins.

I used to hold to that one had to be water baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of sins. I have since found that the moment one comes to New Testament belief that the Holy Spirit baptizes our spirit into the Spiritual body of Christ (Col.1:13) (1Cor.12:13) where it reaches the blood of Christ and all past sins are forgiven. (Eph.1:7)
After this operation upon our soul, the Holy Spirit remains in us to work within us (Philippians 1:6) and be our seal of approval at the day of Judgment. (Eph.1:13)

 

[ScottBot]

Sure do but it's not a sacrament- this is what y'all are having trouble understanding.

Unless, of course, you subscribe to universal salvation, in which everyone is saved, period. In which case you can throw the bible, the Nicene Creed, doctrines, sacraments, theology and everything else out the window. If you submit to universal salvation, you really cannot call yourself Christian.

 

[ScottBot]

Interesting. Its a command from Christ so is it optional? What in your opinion makes it not a sacrament?

Washing of the feet is a sacrament? Since when?

 

[Benedicta00]

Unless, of course, you subscribe to universal salvation, in which everyone is saved, period. In which case you can throw the bible, the Nicene Creed, doctrines, sacraments, theology and everything else out the window. If you submit to universal salvation, you really cannot call yourself Christian.

But as long as you don’t throw out washing feet, we're doing okay.

 

[Benedicta00]

Does it matte whether it is baptism by the spirit or water, as long as the person is baptized?

Brother in Christ,
Luke

Yeah, we have to have proper form, matter and intent for a sacrament to be valid.

 

[ScottBot]

But as long as you don’t throw out washing feet, we're doing okay.

Of course. Everyone is saved according to John 3:16, as long as we all wash each other's feet. Wouldn't that be works based salvation? Oh the horror!!!

 

[Benedicta00]

John 3:22-30 (New International Version)

John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[a] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."
John 4:1 (New International Version)


John 4

Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John,

John's baptism is not the same as our baptism. He baptized with water only, our baptism is done with water and the Holy Spirit.

John’s baptism was a public profession making way for what was coming- the Holy Spirit which when baptized now as Christians, with water and the Spirit (John 3) the Holy Spirit comes and changes us from Adam’s seed to Christ’s seed.

Like Peter said not referring to John’s but ours, “Baptism now saves you.”

 

[A New Dawn]

World wide? A few billion.

Well ................. that would be a bit of an exaggeration since there are only 6.6 billion people on the earth and Christianity claims only about one-third of the population.

But I would say that most within Christianity believe that baptism is required. Not necessarily as a requisite to get into heaven, but to show obedience to God, who commanded us to do so.

 

[Benedicta00]

Of course. Everyone is saved according to John 3:16, as long as we all wash each other's feet. Wouldn't that be works based salvation? Oh the horror!!!

Then I’ll make sure I wash some feet because if I don’t then that might mean that I was never really saved to begin with.

 

[Schroeder]

The why do it? Rather why did Jesus tell his apostles to go do it?

What would be the point in sending the apostles out to do something that didn’t have any effect on salvation?

for one he did not tell them to go water baptize. he did not tell Paul to do it so why would e have told the others. matt. 28, he tells them to go preach the gospel to all nations making them disciples which in turn baptises them into the Church. the , baptising is not water or what to do with them it is what HAPPENS with them when they become disciples or saved. as 1 cor 12:13 tells us. THAT IS WHY IT HAS A ,(comma) and not the word AND before the word baptizing and it is INTO not in. and when they have the SPirit they can then understand the teachings of Christ. as 1 cor 2:12-15. because we can understand what he wants of us untill we receive the SPirit to guide us into all truth.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Yeah, we have to have proper form, matter and intent for a sacrament to be valid.

How can you determine whether the proper intent is present?

Are you able to read the heart and mind of the priest?

How much infused grace has been lost to invalid sacraments?

How many mortal and venial sins have slipped through the cracks because of invalid sacraments?

How many are spending more time in purgatory prison due to invalid sacraments?

How many are now in hell because they thought the sacraments took care of their mortal sins, only to find out at death that the sacraments were invalid?

 

[Benedicta00]

Well ................. that would be a bit of an exaggeration since there are only 6.6 billion people on the earth and Christianity claims only about one-third of the population.

But I would say that most within Christianity believe that baptism is required. Not necessarily as a requisite to get into heaven, but to show obedience to God, who commanded us to do so.

There is nearly 2 billion Catholics world wide, Catholics make up most of the Christian population and then Orthodox is second then Protestants.

Catholic and Orthodox most certainly believe in baptism that saves and so do Lutherans, Anglicans and a few other Protestant sects so I can be very confident that, world wide, a few billion believe that baptism saves.

 

[Benedicta00]

for one he did not tell them to go water baptize. he did not tell Paul to do it so why would e have told the others. matt. 28, he tells them to go preach the gospel to all nations making them disciples which in turn baptises them into the Church. the , baptising is not water or what to do with them it is what HAPPENS with them when they become disciples or saved. as 1 cor 12:13 tells us. THAT IS WHY IT HAS A ,(comma) and not the word AND before the word baptizing and it is INTO not in. and when they have the SPirit they can then understand the teachings of Christ. as 1 cor 2:12-15. because we can understand what he wants of us untill we receive the SPirit to guide us into all truth.

Hi, Please don’t take this the wrong way but I disagree and I really don't feel like debating this.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

World wide? A few billion.

Really? So Buddhists and Muslims believe water baptism is neccessary for salvation?

 

[Benedicta00]

Well a decision on what the church considers sacraments and what it does not consider sacraments [I.E. Foot washing] had to be made some where. The council of Trent was one place that confirmed what the church considered a sacrament. One of the issues between the Protestant church and the Catholic church was "sacraments" in general. That is the reason the Council of Trent addressed the issue.

As I said personally I'm more comfortable following Christ's comand and example.

I’m sorry but I'm still not following you. I didn’t even know that washing feet not being a sacrament was even a issue the Church needed to address.

Did they address this somewhere becuase this is the first time I ever heard this?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

There is nearly 2 billion Catholics world wide,.

Produce the source for those numbers.

2 billion is a gross exageration.

 

[Benedicta00]

Really? So Buddhists and Muslims believe water baptism is neccessary for salvation?

August, please be sensible, there are at least a couple billion Christians world wide who do baptize for the remission of sins and only a few million, if even that who don't and do it for other reasons.

I'm sorry but this is way too silly a thing to even argue against. Don’t make me google a census or something, but even if I did, you would still argue anyway.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

There is nearly 2 billion Catholics world wide

Vatican Radio refutes that number.

Catholics worldwide register increase

The Catholic population in the world in 2004 increased by 12 million compared to 2003, according to the latest figures released by the Vatican. The statistics for 2003 and 2004 were contained in Vatican's annual yearbook, called the Annuario Pontificio for 2006, which was presented to Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday. According to the yearbook, the number of Catholics in the world grew from 1 billion 86 million in 2003 to 1 billion 98 million in 2004 - an increase of 1.1 percent. But in comparison to the world population, which grew from 6.301 billion in 2003 to 6.388 billion in 2004, the Catholic population shrunk by 0.1 percent. Catholics in 2003 formed 17.2% of the world population, whereas in 2004 the percentage declined to 17.1%. In the same period, 170 bishops were nominated around the world. The number of priests in the world in 2004 grew by 441 to 405,891; but this growth was not uniform in all the continents. There were 1,422 and 840 more priests in Asia and Africa respectively in 2004, whereas in the Americas and Oceania the number remained practically stationary. In 2004, there were 1,876 fewer priests in Europe compared to 2003. However, the number of permanent deacons in North America and Europe has increased to 32,324.

http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/in2/Articolo.asp?c=67147

In reality, according to the official Vatican Radio source, the number is closer to 1.09 billion, nearly half of the number presented here as fact.

 

[qh93536]

Yep! Baptism does 'save' us from the fall of mankind and puts us on the path to salvation. We have been given freely the gift of God's grace i.e. reconciliation with him and the cross has made our peace with God but we still have to accept all that we have been freely given and persevere in it if we will be saved.

IOW, salvation it’s an ongoing process, not an event. We ‘work out’ like Paul says what we have been given with fear and trembling.

Yes, I know that is what Catholics believe, but infant baptism is a meaningless ritual. Any kind of baptism must be a process of the heart or soul. The person being baptized must understand the meaning of it.

In the Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Catholic Church, issued by the Vatican, the following statements are made, in reference to Baptism. “Baptism is a sacrament granted to those who believe and want to adhere to Christ. All Christian rituals prescribe that prior to administering it, a preparation is required in which both the journey of the candidate toward the Lord and immediately before the Baptism – his or her adhesion to Christ and corresponding renunciation of Satan and forces of evil are expressed.” This is biblically true, however, following that statement is this one; “The pastor is to see that the parents of the infant to be baptized and those who are given the function of sponsor, be instructive as to the meaning of this sacrament.” These two statements are contradictory in that an infant couldn’t possibly be spiritually mature enough to want to adhere to Christ and to denounce Satan. In other words, infant baptism does not guarantee nor even give eternal salvation.