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Awesome Icon of The Visitation

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Michael G

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Michael you've offered no substantial proof that the Icon is either uncanonical or incorrect. People have already shown that there is an established tradition of depicting the Visitation in this manner, and there is nothing heretical about it since the event is recorded in the bible.

There is nothing wrong with showing the Visitation. As Christine has rightly pointed out, it is a canonical Orthodox icon. There are things that are clearly wrong with this particular example of the icon. The children are not to be shown in their mothers wombs. That they are there is implied in the norms of iconography. St. Elizabeth is not to be shown with her hair outside the snood. Showing of hair like that is a sensual thing and is generally left for St. Mary of Egypt. I don't think we want to imply that St. Elizabeth was like St. Mary, do we? I said nothing about this icon being heresy, those are your words. But this icon is not canonical.

But then, what do I know? Do as you wish, believe as you wish.
 
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Greg the byzantine

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There is nothing wrong with showing the Visitation. As Christine has rightly pointed out, it is a canonical Orthodox icon. There are things that are clearly wrong with this particular example of the icon. The children are not to be shown in their mothers wombs. That they are there is implied in the norms of iconography. St. Elizabeth is not to be shown with her hair outside the snood. Showing of hair like that is a sensual thing and is generally left for St. Mary of Egypt. I don't think we want to imply that St. Elizabeth was like St. Mary, do we? I said nothing about this icon being heresy, those are your words. But this icon is not canonical.

But then, what do I know? Do as you wish, believe as you wish.

I believe the hair is shown in this particular icon to show that it is grey, indicating that St. Elizabeth conceived when she was old (ie. by a miracle).
 
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MariaRegina

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I believe the hair is shown in this particular icon to show that it is grey, indicating that St. Elizabeth conceived when she was old (ie. by a miracle).

Interesting comment, Greg.

The model/pattern upon which this modern icon is based shows brown cheek highlights instead of rosy ones like that of the Theotokos. In the modern icon, both women look very young, and so I did not even notice the graying hair color. Mary the Theotokos was said to have been about 13 to 15 years of age when she conceived, true?

How would age be depicted in icons? Or is this timelessness done on purpose?

BTW, in the Arabic world, women tend to have that salt and pepper hair even in their late senior years. Oh, some have pure white hair, but many go to a hair salon to have it made that color with a little blue highlighting.
 
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Michael G

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Interesting comment, Greg.

The model/pattern upon which this modern icon is based shows brown cheek highlights instead of rosy ones like that of the Theotokos. In the modern icon, both women look very young, and so I did not even notice the graying hair color. Mary the Theotokos was said to have been about 13 to 15 years of age when she conceived, true?

How would age be depicted in icons? Or is this timelessness done on purpose?

BTW, in the Arabic world, women tend to have that salt and pepper hair even in their late senior years. Oh, some have pure white hair, but many go to a hair salon to have it made that color with a little blue highlighting.

Age is not really depicted in icons. The large forhead shown on some of the bishops is not a sign of age. It represents wisdom. The only way to tell age on males is if the beard is brown then the saint was young when he died, if it is grey the saint was older when he died, and if the male saint was very young he would have no beard at all.
 
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choirfiend

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I've seen many icons that reflect age for certain people. I think the graying hair, in this case, is just as Greg said. I certainly noticed it, and have noticed age in several other "characters" in icons, who are being depicted as aged for a reason.
 
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Greg the byzantine

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Age is shown all the time on male saints through the presence of grey hair. I've also seen special detail paid to the lines on the face of certain Holy figures to show age, especially on St. Anne forebear of God.

In the other direction youth is also portrayed through the absence of a beard in males, and in young females the hair shows a bit under their veils. For example every icon of Sts. Sophia and her three daughters, the young daughters are always portrayed with their hair showing a bit. Another example I can think of is the the icon of sts. Raphael Michael and Irene. Young Irene is always portrayed with her hair completely unveiled.

st-sophia-virgin-martyr-3rd-century.jpg


sacred-christianity_icon_St_Raphael_Nicholas_Irene.jpg
 
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Michael G

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Greg, read what I just said. Age is only shown on males through the color of hair. Lines in faces is not reflective of age. It is reflective of holiness. The only other way age is shown is that small children are often shown in a much smaller size than full adults. This can be seen in icons of St. Peter the Aleut, especially when he is depicted in the icons of the North American Saints.

Also, read what I said about hair. On the icon which you have shown, the hair is not showing arround the face. It is from the level below the ears down. I have already said this is acceptable in iconography. What is not acceptable is what is shown on St. Elizabeth. And what is shown in that painting of the Theotokos, with no head covering at all is totally unacceptable.

Dare I suggest you are simply trying to question my abilities as an iconographer?
 
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Greg the byzantine

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Greg, read what I just said. Age is only shown on males through the color of hair. Lines in faces is not reflective of age. It is reflective of holiness. The only other way age is shown is that small children are often shown in a much smaller size than full adults. This can be seen in icons of St. Peter the Aleut, especially when he is depicted in the icons of the North American Saints.
ST. Anne is quite clearly depicted as aged with the use of lines
st_anna_sm.jpg


Also, read what I said about hair. On the icon which you have shown, the hair is not showing arround the face. It is from the level below the ears down. I have already said this is acceptable in iconography. What is not acceptable is what is shown on St. Elizabeth. And what is shown in that painting of the Theotokos, with no head covering at all is totally unacceptable.
I agree about the one with the Theotokos. But on other Icons.....
You did mention about the hair at the level below the ears. How about St. Irene of Lesvos.

trisayii72.jpg


Dare I suggest you are simply trying to question my abilities as an iconographer?

If you feel so insecure that you assume that,well...... then that's your own problem.
 
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Michael G

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If you feel so insecure that you assume that,well...... then that's your own problem.

Greg, I am in no way insecure in what I know. I know Orthodox iconography very, very well. If those of you on TAW do not care what people who know what they are talking about say on the subject of iconography, then that is your own problem. Go ahead, listen to those who base their knowledge of the subject on their own subjective whims.
 
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Michael G

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ST. Anne is quite clearly depicted as aged with the use of lines
st_anna_sm.jpg

Wrong. The use of lines and deep wrinkles in the face are not a symbol of age at all. They are a symbol of wisdom.
 
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Greg the byzantine

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Wrong. The use of lines and deep wrinkles in the face are not a symbol of age at all. They are a symbol of wisdom.

Hmm............ there were plenty of wise young saints but none of them are shown with age line on their face.
 
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Michael G

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Hmm............ there were plenty of wise young saints but none of them are shown with age line on their face.

Greg, do me a favor. Read a few works on iconography, especially those that deal with the meaning of elements in iconography and then come talk to me. If you would like any recommendations I can name quite a few of them, including the paper which I had published in WORD magazine in 2005. Until then you have not a clue what you are talking about.
 
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Greg the byzantine

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Until then you have not a clue what you are talking about.

:hug: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Sorry to get you angry Michael, I do respect your opinions. However if i challenge them, you can try to point me in the right direction (by citing veritable sources) rather than insult my intelligence. :hug:
 
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Michael G

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I have tried to point you in the right directions, Greg. I do not have the time to pull out every iconography book I have and cite page and verse of each reference. I suggest you read Michel Quenot's excellent work "The Icon, Window on the Kingdom." It is not that long, under 200 pages, and will give you an excellent preview of the guidelines of iconography.
 
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choirfiend

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:hug: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Sorry to get you angry Michael, I do respect your opinions. However if i challenge them, you can try to point me in the right direction (by citing veritable sources) rather than insult my intelligence. :hug:

QFT. I appreciate your levelheaded contributions, Greg.
 
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ikonographics

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I know some people will freak out with what I'm going to say and cry "heretic", but it needs to be said.

All these ideas that the way that the icon is painted (technique) portrays holiness/theosis/wisdom/ ascesis etc appeared in the twentieth century and have absolutely nothing to do with what the Church Fathers actually teach about icons.

For centuries after the Renaissance and the dominance of naturalistic painting the Byzantine icon (and anything Orthodox for that matter) was disdained by the artistic and scientific world (including in Orthodox countres). Orthodox iconography was considered to be primitive and crude and painted by uneducated painters who didn't know the basic principles of painting.
At the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century a revolution took place in European art. New aesthetic values and new visual forms were introduced as well as the reevaluation of the relationship between the form and the content in a work of art. One of the immediate results of this revolution was the different view of the role of the artist in the act of painting. Whereas previously the artist was compelled to express the content of his work with existing naturalistic forms, he now has a more dominant position in his art work. He is able to control the forms in his work that express the content in a completely personal way. This climate gave birth to various artistic trends, and a great variety of "visual languages" that are distinguashable between them and can be interpreted in various ways.
It was this revolution of Modernism that brought about the reevaluation of the iconography of the Orthodox Church and the peculiar manner in which it is painted. The icon slowly began to be admired by scientists, artists and theologians.Unfortunately this admiration was not based on the right presuppositions and one-sided means of interpretation were developed that emphasised only certain characteristics of the icon and in particular the theological/dogmatic aspect of the icon. The result was that the icon being viewed based on the facts of European art and in contrast to Western/Roman Catholic art, was incoroperated into the same form of art as Modern Art. Researchers/theologians/ philosophers understood the art of making icons and the art of the icon in the same manner as Modern art - that is as the creation of an image using a specific "visual language" that is capable of making visible the high truths of the Orthodox faith and able to suitably present the spiritual state of the persons portrayed.
The main representatives of this school of thought were P. Florenski and L. Ouspensky who introduced the idea that the form of the person portrayed isn't enough for it to constitute an icon (In other words the theology of the Fathers was not enough for them.) For these theologians what makes an icon an icon is the expression of the existential state of the person of Christ and the saints. So if a person is also God (as is Christ who by nature has both divine and human nature) or by grace participates in the divine energy (the saints) then the icon must find a way of portraying this. In other words the focal point of the art is the expression of a reality that is beyond the form and this turns iconography into an expressionistic artform, that aims to express some content with the painted form.
The immediate result of this is that the "visual language" is bound to the Truth and is given a dogmatic dimension. When the technique is that which expresses the transcendent content, then it becomes the very essence of the icon so that without the specific visual language (in this case, byzantine technique) the icon ceases to be an icon, since it does not express the content and does not visualize the holiness/divinity of the person depicted. This inovative teaching was never taught by the Fathers of the Church. This is why today, icons painted in a naturalistic manner, many of which are miraculous, are described as heretical (Though these same people completely ignore that the famous Sinai icon of Christ is painted in a naturalistic manner).
The result of this is that the manner of painting (technique) aquired dogmatic validity to the degree to which it expresses, symbolizes, describes and defines the Truth of the Church, and consequently it cannot change. The result is that the iconographer too assumes the role of the theologian who expresses the truth, not in words, but in form and colour.
I will state again that this idea is found nowhere in the Fathers of the Church and only creates problems and impasses.
One of the first problems created by this dogmatic understanding of the icon and technique is the inability to comprehend the immense variety of forms and manners the Byzantine and post-byzantine iconographers used in order to paint Orthodox icons. A quick view of history shows that in every era iconographers used different techniques to paint icons. In the era immediately following the Iconoclast controversy, when iconographers were incredible careful of the way they painded icons, there is a great variety of technique (including naturalistic) and they often combined more than one technique in an icon. The technique of iconography has history, it is not like the Symbol of Faith, that one it had been stated, it could never change. While there are things in the icon that cannot change (the form of the person/event depicted - that is the Father's definition of the icon), there are other elements (technique) that have altered a great deal: the colour of the background, the general understanding of colour in various schools, proportions, movement etc. In many cases the manner of painting the forms, clothing, space differs drastically from one school to another. If the technique had the dogmatic content that it has been loaded with this would amount to heresy.
The same interpretive problems arise with the use of the same technique for painting saints and sinners. If the technique used portrays the holiness/ theosis of the person depicted, then why is Judas (and other sinners) painted in exactly the same manner as Christ and the saints? Most Western Orthodox Christians would be horrified to know that the Byzantine technique was never used exclusively for painting icons. It was never loaded with the dogmatic content it aquired in the 20th century.
Loading the technique with dogmatic meaning leads to inability to comprehend the history of iconography. and if we don't undertand the history of iconography we aren't going to make much sense of the present.
At the moment I don't have time to go into all the theological problems that arise from this misinterpretation of icons. In trying to find a place in the modern world for icons, the Russian theologians of the 20th century almost completely ignored the already existing theology of the icons of the Holy Fathers and the 7th Ecumenical Council and created their own completely new definition of the icon based on the definitions of Modern art. That is hardly scientific methodology.
For the Holy Fathers, the icon is the bodily form of the person depicted, nothing more. Nowhere do the Fathers talk about symbolism of colours, proportions or any such nonsense. (Symbolism was banned by the Quinisext council). The Fathers are completely realistic and historical. If the person was old their face has lines.
 
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Greg the byzantine

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Thank you again Julia. Your post truly shows a great deal of study in this area.

Contrary to what Michael may think I am not quite ignorant of Iconography. I studied the Iconoclast controversy for a paper I wrote for one of my Byzantine History courses. I'm no expert, but I am not entirely ignorant either.

It's amazing how what you mention was right at the center of the Iconoclast controversy. One of the Iconoclast arguments was that either an Icon could only portray Christ's Human Nature, dividing the two (Which they considered Nestorian), or else it confused and depicted one Nature in an Image of Christ (which they considered Monophysitism). We however believe that God became Incarnate and it is his incarnate physical person which we depict, because it contained fully both his Divine and Human natures without separation or confusion. To say that an Icon only depicts a spiritual reality and does not depict a physical reality goes completely against the Theology laid forth by St. John of Damascus and codified in the Seventh Ecumenical council. It completely divides the Spiritual (Ie. Divine) nature of Christ from his Human Nature.
 
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Michael G

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Julia, I would suggest to you there is alot more uniformity to iconography than you are suggesting. Yes elements change between schools and between cultures, but those elements that are adjustable due to school and culture and artist are minimal. The over all unifying element in iconography is far greater than you are suggesting it is.
 
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