Avoiding the Mark of the beast

[Major1]

Right. That is the cutoff I am talking about. For both sides.

Also, I think an important thing was subtlety mentioned here: antichrist will be nearly impossible to identify as antichrist! Even for Christians (if possible.)

This is a gargantuan wrench in our knowledge of the grand scheme of this entity''s plans.

Can you imaging world war, economic collapse, planetary irradiation, superepidemics, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, asteroid impacts, mega quake-tsumani-volcano activity, a new planet/star or solar system in the sky, Purges, lawlessness, literal demons running amok, etc... - all within a few years?

Add to the trauma of seeing 2/3 of the world die, the end of the world as you know it, the possibility of being "left behind" if you are a rapture believer, and the psychological and spiritual stress of everything.

Then, enter this "superentity" that not only promises to fix everything - but actually does! This entity will be accepted immediately by most everyone simply on the premise that it "restored" everything back: "how could this not be god?"

Even Christians will have to "shake their head" to realize this entity is a fake - for understandable reason.

So, though the mark is more or less understandable, this entity pushing his mark will exploit his wonders, lies and comparison to Christ in order to deceive people will be enigmatic.

I agree with you!

I would only add that all you just said proves why there must be a Rapture of believers.

We who read the Scriptures would KNOW!!!!

2 Thess. 2:1-7.......
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (Rapture) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (Rapture)except there come a falling away first, and then that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;........

(--That tells us that the Rapture comes first and then the A/C is revealed to the world----)

Verse 4........" Who (A/C) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(Abomination of Desolation)

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."(Holy Spirit who indwells the believers leaves at the Rapture).

 

[Aryeh]

As for the Rapture. You of course are see to believe it or reject it. I for one am a believer in the coming event.

I do not see that you are necessarily adding to the Scriptures. I am saying that your thinking may very well be valid, but I just do not find it in the Scriptures.

I find that men will TAKE A MARK. I understand that to be a literal mark and not something that is thought of or spiritual.

Matt. 15:19........
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."

The right hand does not sin. It is the whole body and mind that does as the thought comes from the mind and all the right hand does is do what it was told to do.

For this conversation, at least, I don't think the rapture is *that* important to the topic. So I won't unneccarily argue that doctrine in this sphere, especially if we are making spiritual progress.

I agree it will also be physical, but I think my explanation makes it seem all physical.

It is a unity of body and spirit that make the mark whole. Christ was 100% aligned to God in His intentions, behavior and personality (forehead.) He executed everything Holy and aligned to God with His own actions (dominant/right hand.) He was the archetype for a properly marked person of God.

But, both the forehead and right hand of Christ were actual (not necessarily spiritualized) concrete expressions of Him. Christ was tempted with everything, but his forehead/frontal lobe did not entertain any of it in His heart, and He did not substantiate it with his dominant hand.

When He healed a man on the Sabbath, He was executing the foundations of His marking with His right hand - the Sabbath was maDE for man, and as a man He also obeyed loving His neighbors as He does Himself. (Would you wait a day to heal your mother because it was the Sabbath?)

I think we may agree more than we know. As far as where what I am saying is, yes I understand now how you think I added stuff.

I got this from Hebrew, Greek, etymology, history, cultural history of the time and area, apocrypha, prayer, etc. Besides the rapture I don't know if we disagree much.

 

[Aryeh]

As for the Rapture. You of course are see to believe it or reject it. I for one am a believer in the coming event.

I do not see that you are necessarily adding to the Scriptures. I am saying that your thinking may very well be valid, but I just do not find it in the Scriptures.

I find that men will TAKE A MARK. I understand that to be a literal mark and not something that is thought of or spiritual.

Matt. 15:19........
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."

The right hand does not sin. It is the whole body and mind that does as the thought comes from the mind and all the right hand does is do what it was told to do.

As far as the rapture goes, it is a nice possibility. I hope you are right, though God has a track record of keeping people protected and pushing them through end of the world events rather than removing them.

But, doesn't really matter right now; I would just say with the same love remember that there was a possibility the rapture was not a Godly event. That way, if

- you do happen to be left behind
- if you happen to be one of the saints or 144,000 teachers (but don't know,)

- if you survive all of the atrocities

You were not necessarily evil or left behind even.

I worry a lot of Christians will categorically lose their faith (and, thus become putty in the entity's spiritual hand) because of feelings of failure or abandonment - if there is no rapture, or it is not what was expected.

For example, I can see how several nefarious black ops campaigns can be used to fabricate a rapture.

But again, on this topic we have made progress with each other. The rapture argument is for some other time

 

[Major1]

For this conversation, at least, I don't think the rapture is *that* important to the topic. So I won't unneccarily argue that doctrine in this sphere, especially if we are making spiritual progress.

I agree it will also be physical, but I think my explanation makes it seem all physical.

It is a unity of body and spirit that make the mark whole. Christ was 100% aligned to God in His intentions, behavior and personality (forehead.) He executed everything Holy and aligned to God with His own actions (dominant/right hand.) He was the archetype for a properly marked person of God.

But, both the forehead and right hand of Christ were actual (not necessarily spiritualized) concrete expressions of Him. Christ was tempted with everything, but his forehead/frontal lobe did not entertain any of it in His heart, and He did not substantiate it with his dominant hand.

When He healed a man on the Sabbath, He was executing the foundations of His marking with His right hand - the Sabbath was maDE for man, and as a man He also obeyed loving His neighbors as He does Himself. (Would you wait a day to heal your mother because it was the Sabbath?)

I think we may agree more than we know. As far as where what I am saying is, yes I understand now how you think I added stuff.

I got this from Hebrew, Greek, etymology, history, cultural history of the time and area, apocrypha, prayer, etc. Besides the rapture I don't know if we disagree much.

I believe we are in agreement pretty much. The Rapture is something that you will have to believe but that is you. I just saw why there may be some questions in your thinking.

You just posted that "I got this from Hebrew, Greek, etymology, history, cultural history of the time and area, apocrypha".

I do not tell people what to do. I especially to not tell learned people what to do.
However, I would caution you on gleaning anything truth from the books of the APOCYPHA.

Those IMO, are very dangerous books to draw any truth from and can in fact lead you into error and false thinking. I do not know you but I would encourage you to eliminate them from any future consideration.

 

[Aryeh]

I believe we are in agreement pretty much. The Rapture is something that you will have to believe but that is you. I just saw why there may be some questions in your thinking.

You just posted that "I got this from Hebrew, Greek, etymology, history, cultural history of the time and area, apocrypha".

I do not tell people what to do. I especially to not tell learned people what to do.
However, I would caution you on gleaning anything truth from the books of the APOCYPHA.

Those IMO, are very dangerous books to draw any truth from and can in fact lead you into error and false thinking. I do not know you but I would encourage you to eliminate them from any future consideration.

Well, to be honest the rapture position I have has nothing to do with apocrypha. It is all from the canon. I agree that unsanctioned booms can be extremely dangerous - especially for new Christians.

I spent a lot of time sifting through misinformation in the canon, and apocrypha

I respect canonicity, but I also don't necessarily accept everything on face value. The canon has had its own problems (Enoch remaining canon, Revelation considered apocrypha - and then Enoch was considered apocrypha while Revelation was added as canon.)

This is why I mentions the other facets of my research - including prayer.

 

[Major1]

As far as the rapture goes, it is a nice possibility. I hope you are right, though God has a track record of keeping people protected and pushing them through end of the world events rather than removing them.

But, doesn't really matter right now; I would just say with the same love remember that there was a possibility the rapture was not a Godly event. That way, if

- you do happen to be left behind
- if you happen to be one of the saints or 144,000 teachers (but don't know,)

- if you survive all of the atrocities

You were not necessarily evil or left behind even.

I worry a lot of Christians will categorically lose their faith (and, thus become putty in the entity's spiritual hand) because of feelings of failure or abandonment - if there is no rapture, or it is not what was expected.

For example, I can see how several nefarious black ops campaigns can be used to fabricate a rapture.

But again, on this topic we have made progress with each other. The rapture argument is for some other time

For a fact my friend........if the church does in fact go through the Tribulation, we will see the truth of Dr. Billy Graham's words about 30 years ago.

In one of his books which I can not remember, he said that he believed that only 50% of the church's membership is actually born again believers. I for one think that the figure is much lower.....probably more like 10%.

If the persecution which is coming, causes people in the church to make a choice between buying food for their family and not taking a mark on their hand..........they will take that mark!

 

[Major1]

Well, to be honest the rapture position I have has nothing to do with apocrypha. It is all from the canon. I agree that unsanctioned booms can be extremely dangerous - especially for new Christians.

I spent a lot of time sifting through misinformation in the canon, and apocrypha

I respect canonicity, but I also don't necessarily accept everything on face value. The canon has had its own problems (Enoch remaining canon, Revelation considered apocrypha - and then Enoch was considered apocrypha while Revelation was added as canon.)

This is why I mentions the other facets of my research - including prayer.

Understood.

 

[masmpg]

How do you know you are not already deceived?

It's a serious question.

This is a very serious question. The mark of the beast is the most serious issue in the whole bible. Those who guess at this or that regarding biblical issues are already deceived. God's word is spiritual, and must be addressed as such. The mark of the beast is all about worship. Here is how John wrote it in revelation 14:9&10: "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" This is the most horrifying warning in the whole bible to mankind. Notice what John wrote "if any man WORSHIP the beast. . ." This is the jist of the mark of the beast. Credit cards, computer chips, are NOT THE mark of the beast. They might be a way to force the mark, which is worship on God's people. These tools used by the enemy will deceive many into a false idea about what the mark is. Using these tools will not cause anybody to disobey God without their consent. This is what it boils down to. If we worship God we will OBEY Him and all He says, like Jesus said in Matthew:4:4: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." The deception lies in the teaching that has many deceived that we do not have to obey God's laws, or that God's laws are somehow done away with. And what this boils down to is the rabid teaching against the sabbath. The only reason so many will tell you that you don't have to obey the TEN commandments is because of the sabbath. Most will tell you that we must obey nine of them, but the bible does not teach that. That is quite a ridiculous statement. If you break one you are guilty of all, so to say we only need to obey nine makes those who say it guilty of ALL. It is so simple to follow, like Jesus said "every word" of God.

 

[Aryeh]

This is a very serious question. The mark of the beast is the most serious issue in the whole bible. Those who guess at this or that regarding biblical issues are already deceived. God's word is spiritual, and must be addressed as such. The mark of the beast is all about worship. Here is how John wrote it in revelation 14:9&10: "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" This is the most horrifying warning in the whole bible to mankind. Notice what John wrote "if any man WORSHIP the beast. . ." This is the jist of the mark of the beast. Credit cards, computer chips, are NOT THE mark of the beast. They might be a way to force the mark, which is worship on God's people. These tools used by the enemy will deceive many into a false idea about what the mark is. Using these tools will not cause anybody to disobey God without their consent. This is what it boils down to. If we worship God we will OBEY Him and all He says, like Jesus said in Matthew:4:4: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." The deception lies in the teaching that has many deceived that we do not have to obey God's laws, or that God's laws are somehow done away with. And what this boils down to is the rabid teaching against the sabbath. The only reason so many will tell you that you don't have to obey the TEN commandments is because of the sabbath. Most will tell you that we must obey nine of them, but the bible does not teach that. That is quite a ridiculous statement. If you break one you are guilty of all, so to say we only need to obey nine makes those who say it guilty of ALL. It is so simple to follow, like Jesus said "every word" of God.

Qft

 

[Major1]

This is a very serious question. The mark of the beast is the most serious issue in the whole bible. Those who guess at this or that regarding biblical issues are already deceived. God's word is spiritual, and must be addressed as such. The mark of the beast is all about worship. Here is how John wrote it in revelation 14:9&10: "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" This is the most horrifying warning in the whole bible to mankind. Notice what John wrote "if any man WORSHIP the beast. . ." This is the jist of the mark of the beast. Credit cards, computer chips, are NOT THE mark of the beast. They might be a way to force the mark, which is worship on God's people. These tools used by the enemy will deceive many into a false idea about what the mark is. Using these tools will not cause anybody to disobey God without their consent. This is what it boils down to. If we worship God we will OBEY Him and all He says, like Jesus said in Matthew:4:4: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." The deception lies in the teaching that has many deceived that we do not have to obey God's laws, or that God's laws are somehow done away with. And what this boils down to is the rabid teaching against the sabbath. The only reason so many will tell you that you don't have to obey the TEN commandments is because of the sabbath. Most will tell you that we must obey nine of them, but the bible does not teach that. That is quite a ridiculous statement. If you break one you are guilty of all, so to say we only need to obey nine makes those who say it guilty of ALL. It is so simple to follow, like Jesus said "every word" of God.

I hear you brother, but I would say that the Mark of the beast is NOT the most serious question or issue in the Bible.

That belongs to Jesus when He asked Peter......"Who do YOU say that I am".

None of the things in the Revelation will come upon the people who correctly answer the question that Jesus asked.

When we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour we are saved from the wrath of God coming upon the earth.

 

[Major1]

Qft

What does........"Qft" mean? I am not a texter so I do not have a clue.

 

[Aryeh]

What does........"Qft" mean? I am not a texter so I do not have a clue.

Heh, it means "quoted for truth"

 

[Major1]

Heh, it means "quoted for truth"

Got it.....thanks!

 

[Major1]

Got it.....thanks!

I have to go. One of my grandsons is playing in a basketball game so I am leaving for that.

If anyone is interested I will be glad to continue the conversation tomarrow.

 

[masmpg]

Really .... give me your details on the matter

I will share one, just one huge truth that shreds the pre trib rapture deception. Found in Luke:17:36&37: Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Do you want to know what happens when the eagles are gathered? Matthew:24:28: "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." You can split all the hairs you want to about who comprises the church, or the people of God, but to try to separate the church from the saved from the people of God from the jews from the Israelites is ridiculousness at best. God's people are His church all through time. Just because they do not use the word church in the old testament does not mean the pharisees in Christ's day were not the leaders of His church in that time.

 

[Straightshot]

"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Do you want to know what happens when the eagles are gathered?"


This passage of scripture has nothing to do with the Lord's early call for His true ecclesia .... and everything to do with the nation of Israel in the tribulation

Those found believing will be spared to enter the Lord's coming millennial kingdom .... those found in unbelief will be take in the judgment

So your example is moot .... Matthew 24 is all about about Israel during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation

.... nothing to do with today's "church"

The other stuff you say is strange indeed and replacement theology contrived by certain divides of the professing "church" is totally bogus and self serving

Here is what the Lord has said about those who claim to be "Jews" and are not [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]

Watch what you are kicking against for your own good [Genesis 12:1-3] ..... nothing has changed

 

[Bible2+]

Aryeh said in post 250:

God made the covenant first with Moses . . .

Note that the Abrahamic covenant preceded the Mosaic covenant (Galatians 3:6-29, Romans 4), and even by some 600 years.

Aryeh said in post 250:

The physical action of circumcision was an act of substantiating the alignment through the willful actions of Moses (and anyone else.)

Note that whether or not someone is physically circumcised does not matter to Christians (Colossians 3:11, Galatians 6:15, Galatians 5:6). Instead, the only circumcision that matters is the spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3) of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Christ (Colossians 2:11-13).

If Christians get physically circumcised thinking that they have to (Acts 15:1,5) because it was commanded to Abraham (Genesis 17:10) and was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Leviticus 12:3), then Christ will profit them nothing (Galatians 5:2). They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) and placed themselves under the curse of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, physical circumcision was required for a male, whether Jew or Gentile, whether infant or adult, to become part of Israel (Exodus 12:48). But under the New Covenant, physical circumcision is not required for a Jew or Gentile to become part of Israel. All that is required is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is one of the ways that the New Covenant is not according to the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32). The letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6).

Also, unlike the abolished physical circumcision of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the spiritual circumcision of the New Covenant of Jesus (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29) makes no distinction between males and females (Galatians 3:28-29).

Also, under the New Covenant, a non-Christian, genetic Jew, even though he may be physically circumcised, is spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually is not a Jew (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). He has been broken off in spirit from the good olive tree of Israel, the genetic Jews' own tree (Romans 11:20,24).

Aryeh said in post 250:

It is written that the enemy will have knowledge of who forsakes the holy covenant: how?

The holy covenant which the Antichrist will have indignation against and which his Jewish quislings in Jerusalem will have forsaken (Daniel 11:30b) would be the still-holy Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:12), which many unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem have forsaken in their desire to be free from any religious control over their lives. The way that the Antichrist could corrupt these Jews by flatteries (Daniel 11:32) could be to teach them that THEY are God, and so can do as they please, in the sense that the "New Age" teaches that all men are God and should not bind themselves by any religious rules, or concepts such as "sin". Of course, the Antichrist, even if he teaches this, will still insist that everyone worship him (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), whom he could present to the world as (what he could call) "the highest and most perfect manifestation of the God Consciousness of which all men are a part".

But there will be some unsaved elect Jews (whether ultra-Orthodox or not) who will not fall under the Antichrist's spell, and so will refuse to worship him or his image or receive his mark on their hand or forehead, thereby escaping the eternal damnation which will be the price of doing these things (Revelation 14:9-11). And some of these unsaved elect Jews will escape the death sentence from the Antichrist for refusing to worship his image (Revelation 13:15), whether by hiding from him or by being protected by the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-5), so that they will still be alive at Jesus' second coming, when he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20), and save all of them (Romans 11:26-31, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Aryeh said in post 250:

This beacon/mark also identifies who the dragon needs to be wroth with - the remnant of the seed of the woman pained to be delivered.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who will not flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 is not (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel is not clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel does not have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel does not have Jacob's twelve sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

*******

Aryeh said in post 256:

This is important for people in general, aND for those who believe in a rapture (and MAY) find themselves "left behind.")

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

*******

Aryeh said in post 258:

I categorically do not believe in a rapture. At all.

Note that the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up" together to Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' second coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' second coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

*******

Aryeh said in post 263:

I worry a lot of Christians will categorically lose their faith (and, thus become putty in the entity's spiritual hand) because of feelings of failure or abandonment - if there is no rapture, or it is not what was expected.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or Jesus' return, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2+]

Major1 said in post 253:

What is actually and literally said is that ALL men are made to RECEIVE a mark.

Note that in Revelation 13:16, the original Greek word (pas: G3956) translated as "all" does not have to mean absolutely all, but can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12). Revelation 13:16 means that all manner of people, "both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond", will receive the Antichrist's mark. Revelation 13:16 does not mean that absolutely all people will receive the mark. For there will be Biblical Christians who will not receive it, but will either be martyred (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Matthew 24:9-13) or will flee into God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16) and will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' second coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, there will be some unsaved elect Jews who will refuse to receive the mark and yet they will survive (either in hiding, or under the protection of the two witnesses: Revelation 11:3,5), and so they will be able to be saved by Jesus when they see him in person at his second coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). Anyone who receives the mark willingly can never be saved (Revelation 14:9-11).

*******

Major1 said in post 261:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."(Holy Spirit who indwells the believers leaves at the Rapture).

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.

Note that the restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit, because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer cannot be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church will not be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with believers during the future tribulation.

Also, the tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

*******

Major1 said in post 270:

When we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour we are saved from the wrath of God coming upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which does not affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first five seals (Revelation 6:1-11) will not be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first four seals, the martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11), will not be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, does not mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself will not begin until Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) will not begin until Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job did not go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11; and just as the apostles John and Matthew did not go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a; so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy a third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause a third of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction is not from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself is not the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church is not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church is not appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the seventh-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the second-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that second-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 276:

Matthew 24 is all about about Israel during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation

.... nothing to do with today's "church"

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jews or Gentiles), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Straightshot said in post 276:

Here is what the Lord has said about those who claim to be "Jews" and are not [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]

Revelation 2:9b and Revelation 3:9 were referring to unbelieving genetic Jews living in the literal, first century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). Unbelieving, genetic Jews are not truly Jews in the sense that even though they are physically circumcised, they are spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually they are not Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all believers, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the first century AD, in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7), in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant that Jesus had made it so that congregation could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly-unbelieving genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

Straightshot said in post 276:

Watch what you are kicking against for your own good [Genesis 12:1-3] ..... nothing has changed

Note that all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so that they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This does not mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

 

[Straightshot]

Matthew 24 is strictly about national Israel in the tribulation ..... and so is Luke 21:20-36

And I do not buy your replacement theology idea which many have fallen for

The NT "church" composed of a few of Israel and mostly the Gentiles of the nations is one thing

The Lord's nation of Israel is a different matter altogether

There will not be an argument between us on these matters .... it would be a waste of time .... you and I have discussed the same before and you already know my position which will not change