Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

[Doug Melven]

Prove it.

Did you not read what I said?
Obviously not.

Who said anything about interchangeably?

If a word is synonomous, that is having almost the same meaning they can be used interchangeably.
Why do I have to explain this?

The argument was unsound logically & i refuted it. Therefore he has been refuted. Nothing you said changes that.

Where and what post?

Jonah knew he wasn't in the sea "forever"

Obviously you have never been in a trial that had no end in sight.

 

[Der Alte]

For an example from this thread:
Illogical. Your conclusion does not logically follow from the premises. Therefore it is invalid. For your conclusion to be true, both aionios and aidios must mean the same thing.

Wrong as usual, as I have proved from the dictionary definition of synonymous. Once again I am not interested in unsupported opinions/arguments. As I have said repeatedly this is another "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument.

Not only must (1) aidios unquestionably mean eternal & only eternal, but so must (2) aionios unquestionably mean eternal & only eternal. But your argument lacks (2). And since (2) is unprovable & wrong, your conclusion can never be proven.

None of your assumptions are valid. Nothing but UR obfuscation. Perhaps you should go back and read my post again and address what I actually said. Then before you repeat the same jejune fallacious argument at least try to find some scholarly support.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead/deity as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous. If aionios did not mean the same thing as aidios Paul could not have used both to refer to God and His attributes.

So, you were refuted. Just one of many examples

.

Your unsupported arguments/opinions are not compelling. You have refuted nothing and you probably never will. Evidence, documentation, substantiation not opinion and assumption.

 

[ClementofA]

You have never refuted anything I have posted.

Here is refutation #2 of you:

You claim that aionios always means a finite period.

No, i do not, & have corrected you re this point before. See below for what i believe (2 possible views):

Context determines the meaning of a word. The same word can have more than one, or even many, meanings in different contexts.

So, to illustrate, if aionion means "eternal" in one context, it can mean a finite age or ages, epoch, era, millennium, lifetime, 3 days, long time, lasting, etc, in other passages.

In order to refute universalism you need to prove the word aionion means "eternal" when speaking of punishment. Arguing that it means "eternal" in regards to life proves nothing.

Universalists mostly agree that aionion sometimes means "eternal" & at others times it doesn't. Call that position A. And the following position B:

Some universalists, however, argue that in Scripture aionion never means eternal & that it always refers to an age, ages or a period of time that is finite. For more on that view see, for example, points 8 & 9 at posts 130 & 131 at:

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)


Which leads us to the passage you refer to, 1 Jn.1:2, & the interpretation of the aforementioned "position B". It says Christ is life aionion, as 1 Jn.1:2 is to be understood. That doesn't mean that is everything Christ is. Christ is much more than that. After the aions end He will still be life, just as He was during the aions. He is both the life eonian and more than life eonian. He is life during the eons and life after the eons. So to say Christ is eonian life does not prove aionion means eternal. In fact, since the aions end, according to Scripture (Heb.9:26; 1 Cor.10:11), the eonian times (Titus 1:2, etc) must also end, as must eonian punishment (Mt.25:46). But since Christ & the saints will have immortality, incorruption, etc, their life will be endless.

BTW it's impossible for "life eonian" to be endless in the past because the eonian times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9). Are you going to argue that Christ had a beginning, too?

Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.

"In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation" (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is "after" and "beyond" aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:

"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond
eternal life." (Comm. in Io 13.3)


N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders "life aionios" as "the life of God's coming age" (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

Weymouth New Testament
the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

Young's Literal Translation
and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us --

And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

(and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

...the AIONIAN LIFE...(Diaglott margin)

and announce to you the life of the Age...(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)

Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?


how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

 

[Der Alte]

Here is refutation #2 of you:

Your opinion about anything means nothing to me. To refute my posts will require scholarly evidence which directly addresses what I have posted. .

...Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is "after" and "beyond" aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:
"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond
eternal life." (Comm. in Io 13.3)

The high priestess of UR Ilaria Ramelli, professor at Sacred Heart Major Seminary of the Thomas Aquinas University, promulgated a lie about Origen and "after eternal life," and all the faithful URists quote her as if Moses carried it down from Mt Sinai.
.....The only thing Origen said was "after eternal life" was the father. Origen said nothing about anything being "after eternal life" for believers.
.....Later in the same writing Origen says this,

(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
Commentary on the Gospel According to John​

Eternal life “never perishes,””remains.””is not taken away,””[is not] consumed,””[does not] perish.” And yes I can and have done the Greek. It doesn't change anything. Here is something interesting I found in Origen's Against Celsus where he quotes the same verse in your quote.

Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap. I. XX
He knows, also, that things “seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal:” and . desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,” and during the season of afflictions and troubles was not at all bowed down by them, but by his contemplation of (divine) things deemed every calamity a light thing, seeing we also have “a great High Priest,” who by the greatness of His power and understanding “has passed through the heavens, even Jesus the Son of God,” who has promised to all that have truly learned divine things, and have lived lives in harmony with them, to go before them to the things that are supra-mundane; for His words are: “That where I go, ye may be also.” (cf. Joh_14:3) And therefore we hope, after the troubles and struggles which we suffer here, to reach the highest heavens,69 and receiving, agreeably to the teaching of Jesus, the fountains of water that spring up unto eternal life, [John 14:4] and being filled with the rivers of knowledge,70 shall be united with those waters that are said to be above the heavens, and which praise His name. ​

Note here Origen says nothing about "after" or "beyond" eternal life. If Origen believed everyone would be saved, no matter what, I wonder why he would say "we hope . . . to reach the highest heavens." Isn't everyone going to reach the highest heaven anyway?

Universalism | Reasons To Reject Universalism

The False Doctrine of Universalism

Bible Answers: Christian Universal Salvation - THE BIG LIE

1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9, and Universalism | CARM.org

REFUTING UNIVERSALISM: ARE ALL PEOPLE IN CHRIST?

Reminder: I am responding to these repetitious copy/paste posts trying to help the unsuspecting from being deceived by cherry-picked out-of-context copy/pastes.

 

[ClementofA]

Note here Origen says nothing about "after" or "beyond" eternal life.

So? In other places he does.

If Origen believed everyone would be saved, no matter what, I wonder why he would say "we hope . . . to reach the highest heavens." Isn't everyone going to reach the highest heaven anyway?

Why did Paul speak of "Christ in you, the hope of glory"? Is "Christ in you" merely a "hope" of maybe "glory"? Is that a "sure" hope or a questionable hope? Is hope a poor translation & "expectation" the better word:

"1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope."

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

Hopefully that answered your query.

 

[ClementofA]

Your opinion about anything means nothing to me. To refute my posts will require scholarly evidence which directly addresses what I have posted. .

The high priestess of UR Ilaria Ramelli, professor at Sacred Heart Major Seminary of the Thomas Aquinas University, promulgated a lie about Origen and "after eternal life," and all the faithful URists quote her as if Moses carried it down from Mt Sinai.
....

Comments re Origen, the early church father Universalist & Greek scholar, speaking of "after eternal(AIONIOS) life" and "beyond eternal(EONIAN) life" have already been addressed earlier in this thread.

For more examples (never refuted) re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[Doug Melven]

So? In other places he does.



Why did Paul speak of "Christ in you, the hope of glory"? Is "Christ in you" merely a "hope" of maybe "glory"? Is that a "sure" hope or a questionable hope? Is hope a poor translation & "expectation" the better word:

"1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope."

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

Hopefully that answered your query.

According to Colossians 1:27 the only way you have hope is if Christ is in you.
As for whether or not hope is a bad translation, all of the Christians I know are able to recognize the difference between Bible hope and worldly hope.
People without Christ, have no elpis.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[ClementofA]

According to Colossians 1:27 the only way you have hope is if Christ is in you.
As for whether or not hope is a bad translation, all of the Christians I know are able to recognize the difference between Bible hope and worldly hope.

What is the difference? You didn't explain.

People without Christ, have no elpis.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

And yet everyone will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Doug Melven]

What is the difference? You didn't explain.

I wasn't aware I needed to.
You yourself thought hope was a bad translation so you must have had some kind of idea what worldly hope is.
Worldly hope = Not sure if it will happen but it sure would be good if it did, but I have not expectation.
Godly hope = Confident expectation of good.
Those without Christ have no positive expectation of anything good.
Romans 8:9 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And yet everyone will be saved:

That would be awesome if it were true.
But, the only way to get Christ is to accept Him.
Those who reject Him do not have Him.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[ClementofA]

That would be awesome if it were true.
But, the only way to get Christ is to accept Him.
Those who reject Him do not have Him.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

One can always hope & pray all will be saved. That is officially allowed in the two largest churches, RC & EO, for example.

 

[Doug Melven]

One can always hope & pray all will be saved. That is officially allowed in the two largest churches, RC & EO, for example.

Don't just pray for everybody to be saved, but
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

Because

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

 

[ClementofA]

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

So? In other places he does.

Wrong, as usual! Please show me the "other places," plural, where Origen mentions "after" or "beyond" aionos life? As I have mentioned several times in Origen's Comm. John Bk 13 Origen quotes John 4:14 ten (10) times, the words "after" and "beyond" aionios life only occur one (1) time, para. 19 and the only thing Origen says is "after" or "beyond" ainios life is God. Origen never says anything about believers "after" or "beyond" aionios life.

Why did Paul speak of "Christ in you, the hope of glory"? Is "Christ in you" merely a "hope" of maybe "glory"? Is that a "sure" hope or a questionable hope? Is hope a poor translation & "expectation" the better word:

When you have acquired several semesters of Greek then you might be qualified to make grammatical arguments meanwhile it is only muddying the water. Is Christ "in" every person who ever lived or will live? It is highly unlikely, bordering on certainty, wicked, unrighteous, unsaved people of Origen's day or today ran out to their local bookstore or equivalent and bought Origen's writings

Romans 8:1
(1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:19
(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1 Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.​

 

[Doug Melven]

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Coming up with this conclusion out of the evidence you gave is akin to saying,
The sky is blue without a cloud in sight, therefore prepare get your umbrella ready because it is going to rain.
The logic just doesn't follow.
The free gift is available to all, it is not given to all, it must be received by faith. It can't ve received by rejection.
And as Der Alter pointed out in post 193, those who die without Christ have no elpis.
That is, if someone dies without Christ, they have no expectation of good.
But universalist's say that there is hope after death.
Therefore, universalist's are wrong.

 

[ClementofA]

Wrong, as usual! Please show me the "other places," plural, where Origen mentions "after" or "beyond" aionos life?

Comm Jn 13:19

Is Christ "in" every person who ever lived or will live?

No, not yet.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

The free gift is available to all, it is not given to all, it must be received by faith.

As all shall do.

And as Der Alter pointed out in post 193, those who die without Christ have no elpis.
That is, if someone dies without Christ, they have no expectation of good.
But universalist's say that there is hope after death.
Therefore, universalist's are wrong.

That is mere human opinion, not backed by Scripture, & in fact opposed by the Word of God. See, for example:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

Comm Jn 13:19

Perhaps you did not understand the question or you are deliberately being deceptive.

Note here Origen says nothing about "after" or "beyond" eternal life.
So?

In other places he does.

My response, "Wrong, as usual! Please show me the "other places," plural, where Origen mentions "after" or "beyond" aionos life? " Your response "Comm Jn 13.19" is not plural.
Then I asked, "Is Christ "in" every person who ever lived or will live?"

No, not yet.

Please share with us any scripture which specifically states that Christ will be "in" all people?
Universalism | Reasons To Reject Universalism

The False Doctrine of Universalism

Bible Answers: Christian Universal Salvation - THE BIG LIE

1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9, and Universalism | CARM.org

REFUTING UNIVERSALISM: ARE ALL PEOPLE IN CHRIST?

 

[Der Alte]

duplicate

 

[ClementofA]

Perhaps you did not understand the question or you are deliberately being deceptive.

I gave you the reference. What don't you understand?

Please share with us any scripture which specifically states that Christ will be "in" all people?

Any passage which supports universalism implies it:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Early church opposition to endless hell

Satan will be saved

 

[Doug Melven]

As all shall do.



That is mere human opinion, not backed by Scripture, & in fact opposed by the Word of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

To be without God is to have no hope. And according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13 some have fallen asleep,(that would be those who died) without hope.

Any passage which supports universalism implies it:

So what you are saying is you don't have any Scriptures that say that, all you do have is opinion pieces.