Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Skavau]

That describes your demands about hell believers. They must all submit to the non hellian viewpoint. You keep demanding that over and over again. Oh, and that definition is of . . . you guessed it! Totalitarianism.

When did I say that they must submit to the 'non hellian' viewpoint?

Which, of course, your stated position employed totalitarian viewpoint to describe that even the last person on earth that believes in hell must be crushed into a secular totalitarian ideology.

When did I say that even the last person on earth that believes in hell must be crushed into a secular totalitarian ideology?

He isn't free to have opinions huh?

When did I say Zaac was not allowed his opinions?

 

[Skavau]

No one argues about Atheists... pariticualrly anyhow... So to take this personally first of all is a mistake. Like I said you insinuate then to ban the Bible as totalitarian?

When did I say or even insinuate that the Bible should be banned?

I think you have a choice...just do not believe it.

Already took that.

Anyhting binding can be totalitarian... and yet it is human. God and hell are of God though and thus not to be compaired to a human's mind level... You are seeing Christianity in a pure politicoeconomic system thus sociologically. Pity...

No, I am seeing the claim of hell for thought-crime as explicitly totalitarian. The fact those who endorse it claim to have God on side makes no difference to me.

Then there is a contradiction in your thought if you do not believe why would you care what the 'others' believe?

I have already answered this repeatedly. I am not repeating myself again.

In any case, what contradiction are you referring to?

It is like wanting both ends of a deal Nah...Christianity does not put such perimeters either as God is the ultimate judge not the Koran

You made the overused claim that people somehow 'choose' hell. That claim is wrong. To claim it shows no understanding of the nature of belief and of contrasting religious beliefs that also seek heaven.

How? You said that the Bible was 'totalitarian" in its message about hell...

It is (unless you embrace universalism). But whether God allows or sends people to hell still makes it totalitarian.

Just because you find a cult immoral and the idea of hell immoral that does not make them equal.

I never said that they were equal. I just told you why I speak out against things I find evil.

I think it needs for you to explore much more the idea of hell before you could bring forth a rightful assensment.

What understanding of 'hell' here am I missing, precisely? Is there a context in which tormenting people for eternity is a good and moral thing?

 

[Philothei]

God allows or sends people to hell still makes it totalitarian.

How? If I say come to my home and you do not come in... how is it my fault? Simple totalitarian would mean "I call the shots"; God does not you have free will.

 

[Skavau]

How? If I say come to my home and you do not come in... how is it my fault? Simple totalitarian would mean "I call the shots"; God does not you have free will.

If you want to make this analogy more accurate to that of God and hell, then you would have to force every single person in your neighbourhood to have to 'choose' whether or not to come to your home and in addition, you would have to send those who choose not to come to your home to a torture chamber.

That would be totalitarian.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Let's not get off the topic here can we please? What questions could possible be answered about hell from the atheism? I think that if someone is an atheist then...how is the reality of hell affects them?

Hell does not. Christians do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[FueledByJesus]

To be Atheist is ultimately a gamble. I have no intent of bashing anyone, simply reasoning. So we can all agree the there's either a God or not. The way I see it is that you can believe and take shelter in Christ and if it ends up he doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost. However, on thecontrary, you can assume there's no God, but then again, it's a chance, if God exists, then you'd regret not giving your heart tohim earlier. So my goal is not to say anything is right or wrong, simply that you have the choice to make a gamble or play it safe and that the decision is solely yours.

 

[Skavau]

To be Atheist is ultimately a gamble. I have no intent of bashing anyone, simply reasoning. So we can all agree the there's either a God or not. The way I see it is that you can believe and take shelter in Christ and if it ends up he doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost. However, on thecontrary, you can assume there's no God, but then again, it's a chance, if God exists, then you'd regret not giving your heart tohim earlier. So my goal is not to say anything is right or wrong, simply that you have the choice to make a gamble or play it safe and that the decision is solely yours.

I don't mean to be offensive, but the above suggests that you've never looked at the counter-arguments to the wager ever.

What if Islam is true? You're gambling a lot by thinking that it isn't are you not?

 

[b&wpac7]

To be Atheist is ultimately a gamble. I have no intent of bashing anyone, simply reasoning. So we can all agree the there's either a God or not. The way I see it is that you can believe and take shelter in Christ and if it ends up he doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost. However, on thecontrary, you can assume there's no God, but then again, it's a chance, if God exists, then you'd regret not giving your heart tohim earlier. So my goal is not to say anything is right or wrong, simply that you have the choice to make a gamble or play it safe and that the decision is solely yours.

Ok, let me give you the Jewish perspective.

I believe in God. However, God hates idolatry. I would be cut off from Israel were I to take it up. Now, if Jesus isn't God, but I worship him as God... what am I doing and what would I be cut off from?

 

[FueledByJesus]

That's ironic pac7, I believe much like you do. I believe in the Godhead: Father, son, and spirit as separate entities.

As for the Islamic idea, the difference between selecting a faith and being in denial of existence of a higher power is that in the latter, you at least tried.

 

[b&wpac7]

That's ironic pac7, I believe much like you do. I believe in the Godhead: Father, son, and spirit as separate entities.

I don't believe in a godhead. There is only one God, no persons or Trinity in my beliefs.

 

[BleedingHeart]

To be Atheist is ultimately a gamble. I have no intent of bashing anyone, simply reasoning. So we can all agree the there's either a God or not. The way I see it is that you can believe and take shelter in Christ and if it ends up he doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost. However, on thecontrary, you can assume there's no God, but then again, it's a chance, if God exists, then you'd regret not giving your heart tohim earlier. So my goal is not to say anything is right or wrong, simply that you have the choice to make a gamble or play it safe and that the decision is solely yours.

That's Pascal's Wager (which is kind of funny as you see atheism as a gamble) and that is a logical fallacy. You are making the assumption that either the Christian is right, or the atheist is right. You are ignoring all the other possibilities. The Muslims could potentially be right. Satan worshippers could potentially be right. The Romans and Greeks could be right. The Egyptians could potentially be right. Perhaps a different god altogether from an alien culture; one who's none too pleased that you decided to obey the false Christian god and not him. So he/she/it throws you and everyone you love into alien hell for all of eternity (which in this hypothetical case involves baby oil, lava, rusty hooks, and late-period Dean Koontz novels) for not believing he existed.
You: But that's not right!
Alien God: Do you say that based on your standard of right or wrong or Mine?
You: uh....
Alien God: Yeah that's what I thought...

 

[FueledByJesus]

I'm not particularly educated in the Jewish faith, so I apologize in advanced. So what to you refer to? Christians use the bible, what do the Jewish use?

 

[Skavau]

As for the Islamic idea, the difference between selecting a faith and being in denial of existence of a higher power is that in the latter, you at least tried.

Firstly, you seem to be assuming that no atheist could have possibly have tried at any point.

Secondly, you seem to be ignoring the core point. Islam would have all Non-Muslims subject to eternal torture in hellfire for not adhering to it. You are taking a risk by being a Christian by rejecting Islam. It is as simple as that and therefore your wager fails on its face.

Belief is motivated on convictions not credulous self-interest. Your gamble would have all atheists reject their sincerity in favour of it.

 

[FueledByJesus]

Again, bleeding heart, the difference is whether or not you tried, to deny all faiths is to ultimately give up.

 

[Skavau]

Again, bleeding heart, the difference is whether or not you tried, to deny all faiths is to ultimately give up.

Only a sadist would argue seriously that you should be punished for what you think. That is the ultimate root of the wager (it fails if it suggests no consequence) that even to agree to it is to surrender both your moral and intellectual honesty in favour of being self-serving.

I see no reason to believe in a God and I won't be told that I ought to based on what might happen if I don't. It is manipulative. It is dishonest.

 

[b&wpac7]

I'm not particularly educated in the Jewish faith, so I apologize in advanced. So what to you refer to? Christians use the bible, what do the Jewish use?

We use the Hebrew or Jewish Bible which you would call the Old Testament.

 

[FueledByJesus]

Even if the Islamic is right, then the Atheist is still in a hard place, so my point is that it's best to take a stand on at least something, otherwise, no matter who's right, it comes to your loss.

 

[Skavau]

Even if the Islamic is right, then the Atheist is still in a hard place, so my point is that it's best to take a stand on at least something, otherwise, no matter who's right, it comes to your loss.

Then intellectual honesty means nothing to you. You would have people sacrifice their principles purely for self-gain.

 

[FueledByJesus]

Ah, ok. But isn't the Holy Spirit used in the old testament?

So here's my question to you, if you were going to deny all reasoning in faith, why did you sign up for a religious forum? Was it purely bent on trying to speak against them?

 

[b&wpac7]

Ah, ok. But isn't the Holy Spirit used in the old testament?

So here's my question to you, if you were going to deny all reasoning in faith, why did you sign up for a religious forum? Was it purely bent on trying to speak against them?

I'm going to assume the first question is to me and the second is not...

In Jewish understanding, the term holy spirit denoted God's power working in the world. It does not occur often in the scriptures and isn't seen as any sort of separate entity or person of God.