Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[razeontherock]

Gabe, there ya go being sensible, correct, and concise all in the same post. Pretty sure there must be forum rules against that

 

[Doveaman]

Then it is mightily odd that the idea didn't crop up until about 1521 when Martin Luther started producing theology!

What idea are you talking about? This is the only idea I referred to:

Jesus gave them this answer..."You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life...I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."- John 5:39-40, John 14:6.

Matt 7:26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

Exactly. The “sayings” of Christ are as quoted above, and only the foolish man "doeth them not".

Jesus preached faith & action in harmony, neither one exceeding the other. James (chapter 2) follows a similar path.

I agree. So does Paul.

It was not until the Pauline letters were translated by Luther that sola fides entered theological lexicon and became a dominant interpretation in Protestant thought.

Your beef with Luther's and Protestants’ interpretations has nothing to do with the Pauline letters.

I'm not saying that this understanding necessarily wrong, however to claim that it is based on Christ rather than Paul is both scripurally and historically innacurate.

Paul’s understanding is based on Christ’ teachings. Paul is not encouraging faith without works. He is simply stating that we are justified by the faith (our heart's commitment to work or obey) even before the actual work itself is made evident. We are justified by our heart’s intent to work or obey followed by the actual work itself.

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about — but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." - Rom 4:2-3.

Abraham’s “belief” was shown to be genuine based on his heart’s “intent” to obey God.

“For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” - 1 Sam 16:7.

Abraham was justified by his heart’s intent to obey. His intent was then made evident by his actual obedience, just as James explained:

“Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.” - James 2:21-22.

Paul is focusing on faith’s intent, while James is focusing on faith complete.

 

[Doveaman]

You have to understand that evil is our default state and hell is our default destiny. What is needed is someone to save us from our default state and destiny.

Why? Why are we default evil?

When something clean becomes permanently stained its default state is to be permanently stained, no matter what.

Evil (sin) is a permanent stain on our bodily selves, as explained here:

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” - 1 John 1:8.

Paul phrased it differently in the form of a question:

“O what a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” - Rom 7:24.

Paul considered his bodily self to be a “body of death” because sin (evil) is a permanent stain on our bodily selves and sin leads to death, as explained here:

“For the wages of sin is death” - Rom 6:23.

And our only hope lies here:

"Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!" - Rom 7:25.

 

[AtheistSeri]

When something clean becomes permanently stained its default state is to be permanently stained, no matter what.

Evil (sin) is a permanent stain on our bodily selves, as explained here:

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” - 1 John 1:8.

Paul phrased it differently in the form of a question:

“O what a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” - Rom 7:24.

Paul considered his bodily self to be a “body of death” because sin (evil) is a permanent stain on our bodily selves and sin leads to death, as explained
here:
“For the wages of sin is death” - Rom 6:23.

And our only hope lies here:

"Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!" - Rom 7:25.

So even if we are good all our life without sin we will still go to hell because the only way to no go to hell is to ask god to forgive us because for some reason our heavenly father made us, as the expression goes 'Bad to the bone!'

 

[CaliforniaSun]

So even if we are good all our life without sin we will still go to hell because the only way to no go to hell is to ask god to forgive us because for some reason our heavenly father made us, as the expression goes 'Bad to the bone!'

As Hitchens states in his book, "God Is Not Great", "we are created sick, and commanded to be well!"

 

[Doveaman]

So even if we are good all our life

That's not possible, is it?

without sin

That's not possible, is it?

we will still go to hell because the only way to no go to hell is to ask god to forgive us

Yes.

because for some reason our heavenly father made us, as the expression goes 'Bad to the bone!'

No.

 

[BleedingHeart]

So even if we are good all our life without sin we will still go to hell because the only way to no go to hell is to ask god to forgive us because for some reason our heavenly father made us, as the expression goes 'Bad to the bone!'

You aren't understanding one of the core ideas of Christianity and that is that people AREN'T GOOD no matter what. Doesn't matter what you do, how willingly you do it, how many people you help or benefit. It doesn't matter if you open up a charity and feed all the hungry kids, clothe all the naked kids, and shelter all the homeless. It doesn't matter if you kill a dictator murdering his own people. It doesn't matter if you go back in time and kill the guy who made Monster Energy. Because you are a human being you are automatically evil and deserving of torment no matter what. Period. End of discussion.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

You aren't understanding one of the core ideas of Christianity and that is that people AREN'T GOOD no matter what. Doesn't matter what you do, how willingly you do it, how many people you help or benefit. It doesn't matter if you open up a charity and feed all the hungry kids, clothe all the naked kids, and shelter all the homeless. It doesn't matter if you kill a dictator murdering his own people. It doesn't matter if you go back in time and kill the guy who made Monster Energy. Because you are a human being you are automatically evil and deserving of torment no matter what. Period. End of discussion.

For good or ill one of the things I've liked about Buddhism while studying it some, is that it does not contain this idea.

 

[BleedingHeart]

To be honest, I'm surprised there are even Buddhists still around. That whole all that rejecting desire stuff and finding inner peace doesn't seem to sit well with most people.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

To be honest, I'm surprised there are even Buddhists still around. That whole all that rejecting desire stuff and finding inner peace doesn't seem to sit well with most people.

/facepalm That's about as accurate a description of Buddhism as saying Christianity is about a man who died on pieces of wood.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

For good or ill one of the things I've liked about Buddhism while studying it some, is that it does not contain this idea.

Brainwashing 101. Tell people they are evil sinners without god, then tell them there is one person however, that loves and cares, you'll have to reject everything and everyone to follow him to get this eternal reward, but only after you're dead.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Brainwashing 101. Tell people they are evil sinners without god, then tell them there is one person however, that loves and cares, you'll have to reject everything and everyone to follow him to get this eternal reward, but only after you're dead.

*shrugs* Certainly some people are like that. Though I wonder at times if ultimately it's folks like the Westboro people that use the worst sort of message. As for my earlier post. I guess I just wish that Christianity had had a sort of message like Buddhism's idea of all humans having a sort of innate "Buddha-nature" as it's sometime called. Too different of theologies though.

 

[BleedingHeart]

/facepalm That's about as accurate a description of Buddhism as saying Christianity is about a man who died on pieces of wood.

Wouldn't surprise me much. Haven't studied the subject in a long time. I guess did a "Tergle".

 

[Doveaman]

/facepalm That's about as accurate a description of Buddhism as saying Christianity is about a man who died on pieces of wood.

Christianity is about a man who died on pieces of wood, and all that implies.

 

[Skavau]

That's not possible, is it?
That's not possible, is it?
Yes.
No.

Why does a lifetime of sinning command an infinite response?

 

[razeontherock]

Tell people they are evil sinners without god, then tell them there is one person however, that loves and cares, you'll have to reject everything and everyone to follow him to get this eternal reward, but only after you're dead.

Again, this is a false statement. This time, you could in fact say this is what you heard as Christian teaching. It might even be the case that you were exposed to C in an environment like that, which is what caused you to reject it?
Anyway, both facts and Scripture prove otherwise. Eternal Life begins in the here and now!

 

[Doveaman]

Why does a lifetime of sinning command an infinite response?

You mean as in eternal torment?

Not all of us are agreement on eternal torment. Some of us see it as eternal death, as in dead forever, but not before being burnt to ashes.

The way I see this, there was a time when we all were in non-existence. God then took us out of non-existence and brought us into existence to do a job, but we refused to do that job. So God then simply returned us into non-existence by burning us to ashes.

To me this all makes sense since this is no different from what I do with my useless junk.

 

[Skavau]

You mean as in eternal torment?

Yes.

Not all of us are agreement on eternal torment. Some of us see it as eternal death, as in dead forever, but not before being burnt to ashes.

The way I see this, there was a time when we all were in non-existence. God then took us out of non-existence and brought us into existence to do a job, but we refused to do that job. So God then simply returned us into non-existence by burning us to ashes.

An Annihilationist. Fair enough. I do have moral queries about this but it is not even remotely as awful as eternal torture.

 

[razeontherock]

So even if we are good all our life without sin we will still go to hell because the only way to no go to hell is to ask god to forgive us because for some reason our heavenly father made us, as the expression goes 'Bad to the bone!'

I'm hoping this has been adequately addressed, but in case it hasn't:

1) God didn't make us bad. Yes, my Mother says I was hatched, but you don't believe her any more than I do.
2) You cannot live your whole life w/o sin, and you have not. Neither have I.
3) If you were to live a sinless life, you would not need to ask for forgiveness. Kinda by definition, ain't it?

 

[razeontherock]

As Hitchens states in his book, "God Is Not Great", "we are created sick, and commanded to be well!"

This might explain your viewpoint? Suffice it to say Hitchens is not a credible source of info on this subject. I'll let you see through the flaws in these statements yourself