Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[razeontherock]

So is the god that you guys worship as weak as that species of aliens that he can't help but be influenced by the thoughts of others?

Two possible responses:

if this is just mocking, (Psalm 1:1) Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."

2) On the off-chance that this was a serious question, then no. G-d is so Powerful that He can tell every thought, differentiate that from our actual intents, give us 100% freedom to do our worst, and still retain control, ultimately.

 

[Woden84]

Two possible responses:

if this is just mocking, (Psalm 1:1) Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."

2) On the off-chance that this was a serious question, then no. G-d is so Powerful that He can tell every thought, differentiate that from our actual intents, give us 100% freedom to do our worst, and still retain control, ultimately.

Honestly, I did not mean it to be mocking. It is one of only two explanations that I can see for why God punishes thought crimes. Either because he is like the aforementioned aliens, or he is sadistic. If the the former is wrong and he can differentiate our thought from our intentions, then surely he knows he would literally have billions more followers if they actually had evidence of his existence. So either he is sadistic, or those who do not believe, but would if they had sufficient evidence also get into heaven. (As I see it, not trying to put forth a false dichotomy)

 

[razeontherock]

Honestly, I did not mean it to be mocking.

Ok, I'll take you at your word. And I appreciate it

It is one of only two explanations that I can see for why God punishes thought crimes.

One purpose of the book of Psalms us to show us all that He does NOT. In Psalms you will see King David commit the most heinous of thought crimes. This is the man G-d described as being "after His own heart." Notice this is disturbing, and thought provoking. G-d acts as His "Wonderful Counsellor." My Sister's a top PhD in that field, but she's not that good

Thoughts turn into emotions, may or may not result in words, and eventually lead to action. The latter is what G-d Judges us on. Psalms is a great look into the interconnectedness of these various elements, and also into how G-d will interact on our behalf.

billions more followers if they actually had evidence of his existence.

It seems you are confusing "follow" with lead." Vis:

or those who do not believe, but would if they had sufficient evidence also get into heaven.

Do you not appoint yourself as His superior with these thoughts? And don't worry, if these are thought crime this is the time to straighten things out. The Almighty is not above scrutiny!

This is an intriguing direction, those who do not believe but would if ...

I posit we are all given the chance to do what is right in His eyes. (Maybe not all chances are created equal, but still)

 

[BleedingHeart]

I want Samuel Adams now.

 

[selfinflikted]

This is an intriguing direction, those who do not believe but would if ...

Then, wouldn't you agree that god knows exactly what it would take for each and every person on this planet to become a believer? And, if you do agree with that premise, then why doesn't he show us all what it would take?

 

[Woden84]

Ok, I'll take you at your word. And I appreciate it

One purpose of the book of Psalms us to show us all that He does NOT. In Psalms you will see King David commit the most heinous of thought crimes. This is the man G-d described as being "after His own heart." Notice this is disturbing, and thought provoking. G-d acts as His "Wonderful Counsellor." My Sister's a top PhD in that field, but she's not that good

Thoughts turn into emotions, may or may not result in words, and eventually lead to action. The latter is what G-d Judges us on. Psalms is a great look into the interconnectedness of these various elements, and also into how G-d will interact on our behalf.

But God himself admits that no matter what we do our actions are not enough. Everything is predicated on whether or not you believe in Jesus(a thought). So even if someone tries their best to follow the morals of Jesus (from say the Jefferson Bible) ultimately they will be judged on whether or not they thought Jesus was the son of God or not.

Do you not appoint yourself as His superior with these thoughts? And don't worry, if these are thought crime this is the time to straighten things out. The Almighty is not above scrutiny!

His superior? No. His equal? Yes

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God himself says we have the same ability to know good and evil as he does. IMHO condemning people because they were not shown enough evidence is evil.

This is an intriguing direction, those who do not believe but would if ...

I posit we are all given the chance to do what is right in His eyes. (Maybe not all chances are created equal, but still)

It would certainly fit with how Jesus is described. It would also explain why he doesn't indulge any more doubting Thomas's, because it is not needed.

 

[razeontherock]

I want Samuel Adams now.

Probably the only way to stomach this stuff:

YouTube - Spam

 

[razeontherock]

Then, wouldn't you agree that god knows exactly what it would take for each and every person on this planet to become a believer? And, if you do agree with that premise, then why doesn't he show us all what it would take?

Fortunately we don't have to guess about this:

"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

IOW, the only doubt Jesus ever expressed, was if any at all would believe upon His return. (We so need an emoticon like that thinker statue)

 

[briareos]

Woden84

Honestly, I did not mean it to be mocking. It is one of only two explanations that I can see for why God punishes thought crimes. Either because he is like the aforementioned aliens, or he is sadistic. If the the former is wrong and he can differentiate our thought from our intentions, then surely he knows he would literally have billions more followers if they actually had evidence of his existence.

Maybe he doesn't draw that conclusion, even if those people think or say that. Suppose it's true, what would a good God do?

So either he is sadistic, or those who do not believe, but would if they had sufficient evidence also get into heaven. (As I see it, not trying to put forth a false dichotomy)

Why would they go to heaven?

 

[Woden84]

Woden84


Maybe he doesn't draw that conclusion, even if those people think or say that. Suppose it's true, what would a good God do?

I would hope a good god would do everything in his power to prevent people being tortured for all eternity. Including making sure people have enough evidence that he even exists, or (along the lines of the what if) strict belief in him not being necessary.

Why would they go to heaven?

That was in reply to "G-d is so Powerful that He can tell every thought, differentiate that from our actual intents, give us 100% freedom to do our worst, and still retain control, ultimately." If my thought is that God does not exist(because of a lack of evidence), but my intentions are good and I would believe in him if I had sufficient evidence, then of course he would know this. So(again how I see it) you're left with two choices. God knows that I would believe in him if I had sufficient evidence (he also knows exactly what that evidence would be being omniscient). So he refuses to give me that evidence because either he is sadistic and wants me in hell, or it is not needed because he will let me into heaven anyway.

*edit* This reminds me about a line of argument I read in another thread. (sorry can't remember who brought it forth). Is the salvation power of Jesus a force just like gravity. Whether you believe in it or not if you jump off a skyscraper you'll be meeting the ground pretty quickly. Is Jesus what brings salvation or is it the belief in Jesus that brings salvation?

*edit, edit* Honestly the more I think about this the more it makes sense. If you've ever been to FSTDT you have probably read something along the lines of "How come you Atheist aren't out their raping and killing babies? If there was no God that's what I'd be doing"; meanwhile, predominately non-religious nations have lower crime and whatnot then predominately religious nations. Maybe God specifically gave that person his required evidence to believe because otherwise he would end up in hell, but he doesn't bother giving moral Atheist any evidence because he's gunna let them into heaven anyway.

Note: I do not mean to imply that every theist is of such low moral character that they would go on a killing spree if there was no god, but there definitely are some. If needed I could scrounge the FSTDT archives for examples.

 

[razeontherock]

But God himself admits that no matter what we do our actions are not enough.

True, but I take exception to your use of "admits." Our righteousness is like, a used menstrual cloth.

believe in Jesus(a thought).

Important distinction! Belief takes place in the heart. This is not merely a semantic difference; rather, the modern usage of the word differs from Biblical intent. C can be summarized as "earnestly contending for the Faith that was once delivered to the Saints."

Next, we see that confession via our mouth is also important. Neither of these can entirely bypass our thoughts, but neither are thoughts significant enough to even get a mention.

So even if someone tries their best to follow the morals of Jesus (from say the Jefferson Bible)

Interesting statement made by that piece of work, isn't it? [/derail]

ultimately they will be judged on whether or not they thought Jesus was the son of God or not.

You are falling into a sneaky little trap. Yes, many C's do too. No, that doesn't make it ok, or even any better. Any time Jesus' followers asked Him about such matters He was very stern with them, telling them to mind their own business and to follow Him, personally. You see the lesson, and the dilemma?

Again: "all Judgment is given unto the Son." Yes, C's are responsible to judge in the sense of discernment, just to make good decisions in our own lives; but never in the sense of condemnation. English is a dull tool, and often the Bible can be confusing like that.

His superior? No. His equal? Yes

Very dangerous statement to make! i take exception to churchianity when they teach satan wanted to be above G-d. He did not. He wanted to be "like the Most High." (I trust you see the problem with your statement)

condemning people because they were not shown enough evidence is evil.

The fact that you and I agree on this is not what makes it so. The Bible teaches we are judged based on what we did know, not on what we didn't. (Past tense intentional; it refers to post-mortem)

It would also explain why he doesn't indulge any more doubting Thomas's, because it is not needed.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I think you may be seriously missing the point of that story. I started a thread that goes into this, "purple bunnies."

 

[razeontherock]

I would hope a good god would do everything in his power to prevent people being tortured for all eternity. Including making sure people have enough evidence that he even exists, or (along the lines of the what if) strict belief in him not being necessary.

Not sure what you mean by "strict belief," or how that might differ from Biblical Faith. We are told the latter is necessary, in the sense of being accepted rather than rejected. Obviously it does not apply to those who have never been exposed.

And our hopes that oppose His eternal will come to no avail.

If my thought is that God does not exist(because of a lack of evidence), but my intentions are good and I would believe in him if I had sufficient evidence, then of course he would know this. So(again how I see it) you're left with two choices. God knows that I would believe in him if I had sufficient evidence (he also knows exactly what that evidence would be being omniscient). So he refuses to give me that evidence because either he is sadistic and wants me in hell, or it is not needed because he will let me into heaven anyway.

I do see where you're going with this. Do you see that you are thinking you can paint G-d into a corner? We simply don't have that power, and if I could point out a third option it would demonstrate this. There are probably limitless options you haven't accounted for here, but just one is He wants to see you express desire (via effort) to reach out for said evidence, and will blow your mind once you do.

Is Jesus what brings salvation or is it the belief in Jesus that brings salvation?

Again, what is belief? Demonstrated here: "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

 

[selfinflikted]

He wants to see you express desire (via effort) to reach out for said evidence, and will blow your mind once you do.

And what, then, if we did reach out, and he didn't blow our minds?

 

[razeontherock]

And what, then, if we did reach out, and he didn't blow our minds?

While this is an interesting scenario, let's keep my statement in context, that it is just one of many possible options Woden failed to account for.

 

[Woden84]

True, but I take exception to your use of "admits." Our righteousness is like, a used menstrual cloth.

Would "says" really be any better?

Important distinction! Belief takes place in the heart. This is not merely a semantic difference; rather, the modern usage of the word differs from Biblical intent.

It seems like semantics to me. If you're referring to heart as basically your emotions and feelings instead of a muscular pump, then those take place in the same organ as your thoughts.

C can be summarized as "earnestly contending for the Faith that was once delivered to the Saints."

The hard part being what was the faith once delivered to the Saints. One of the earliest disputes in the Christian church was whether Jesus was a man or both a man and a god. Still to this day your have denominations squabbling amongst themselves. Protestants aren't Christians according to Catholics; Catholics aren't Christians according to Protestants.

Next, we see that confession via our mouth is also important. Neither of these can entirely bypass our thoughts, but neither are thoughts significant enough to even get a mention.

I beg to differ. Unless you're sleep-talking or have some medical condition your speech is a direct result of your thoughts.

Interesting statement made by that piece of work, isn't it? [/derail]

Yes definitely, there could probably be an entire thread about that

You are falling into a sneaky little trap. Yes, many C's do too. No, that doesn't make it ok, or even any better. Any time Jesus' followers asked Him about such matters He was very stern with them, telling them to mind their own business and to follow Him, personally. You see the lesson, and the dilemma?

Again: "all Judgment is given unto the Son." Yes, C's are responsible to judge in the sense of discernment, just to make good decisions in our own lives; but never in the sense of condemnation. English is a dull tool, and often the Bible can be confusing like that.

I have met very few Christians that believe people can get to heaven if they don't believe Jesus is God, and usually those people are decried as not true Christians by the others.

Very dangerous statement to make! i take exception to churchianity when they teach satan wanted to be above G-d. He did not. He wanted to be "like the Most High." (I trust you see the problem with your statement)

When Satan said that, I assumed it to mean he wanted to be like him in authority and power. I am merely echoing what the bible says. It did not say "Behold, the man is become like us, to know good and evil, but still at a level far below us."

The fact that you and I agree on this is not what makes it so. The Bible teaches we are judged based on what we did know, not on what we didn't. (Past tense intentional; it refers to post-mortem)

Hence the whole problem. I do not know if there is a God. Most Christians will readily say that alone will put me in hell.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I think you may be seriously missing the point of that story. I started a thread that goes into this, "purple bunnies."

When Thomas doubted Jesus let him stick his fingers through the holes on himself knowing this would enable him to believe. When someone today doubts... *cricket chirps*

I'll check that thread out.

 

[Woden84]

Not sure what you mean by "strict belief," or how that might differ from Biblical Faith. We are told the latter is necessary, in the sense of being accepted rather than rejected. Obviously it does not apply to those who have never been exposed.

And our hopes that oppose His eternal will come to no avail.

This is all following that what if I started. If someone doesn't believe because of a lack of evidence, but would believe if they had enough evidence, what if that was good enough for God to let that person into heaven. That's what I meant by that.

I do see where you're going with this. Do you see that you are thinking you can paint G-d into a corner? We simply don't have that power, and if I could point out a third option it would demonstrate this.

I'm not trying to, after all I don't even know if there is a God to be painted into a corner. This is all merely conjecture.

There are probably limitless options you haven't accounted for here, but just one is He wants to see you express desire (via effort) to reach out for said evidence, and will blow your mind once you do.

But many, many, many people have done just that and come back empty handed. The usual retort from Christians is that they didn't do it the correct way, or they didn't try hard enough. It does not seem to be a good option with it track record of failure.

Again, what is belief? Demonstrated here: "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Well what belief definitely is not, is Jesus. So many Christians say that salvation comes from Jesus, but then turn right around and say that the salvation comes from the belief in Jesus.

 

[razeontherock]

It seems like semantics to me. If you're referring to heart as basically your emotions and feelings instead of a muscular pump, then those take place in the same organ as your thoughts.

Still not what the Bible refers to as heart, in this instance. Effort required, and mine won't carry you.

I beg to differ. Unless you're sleep-talking or have some medical condition your speech is a direct result of your thoughts.

So you're saying you're completely unaware of the sub-conscious.

I have met very few Christians that believe people can get to heaven if they don't believe Jesus is God

Your knowledge is limited. Over 1/2 of all professing C's are RC, and even they have come around to understanding this much.

When Satan said that, I assumed it to mean he wanted to be like him in authority and power. I am merely echoing what the bible says.

Yes, and that's very dangerous ground to be on in this instance. As in, look where it got him! Also, note G-d invented war then and there, and uses it as a curse upon mankind.

Hence the whole problem. I do not know if there is a God. Most Christians will readily say that alone will put me in hell.

Sadly, you may be right about this. And you're also right that this is sort of thing C's argue about, but that's only because it's irrelevant to the "the Faith once delivered to the Saints." Some things are unknowable, and Jesus seems to have generally left this type of thing in that category.

When someone today doubts... *cricket chirps*

Are you sure you haven't over-ridden God's still small voice amid those chirping crickets? what effort have you spent in this pursuit? (Answering me is not why I ask)

 

[razeontherock]

This is all following that what if I started. If someone doesn't believe because of a lack of evidence, but would believe if they had enough evidence, what if that was good enough for God to let that person into heaven. That's what I meant by that.

Gotcha. Good thought! I wouldn't want to "hang my hat on it" though. The Bible does give us some insight along these lines, and the dividing line seems to be somewhat different than you imagine. With the emphasis more on the thought to action chain.

I'm not trying to, after all I don't even know if there is a God to be painted into a corner. This is all merely conjecture.

Just trying to help you get your conjecture closer to Truth. I certainly can't complete that process, but POV from others is a valuable resource.

But many, many, many people have done just that and come back empty handed. The usual retort from Christians is that they didn't do it the correct way, or they didn't try hard enough. It does not seem to be a good option with it track record of failure.

Oh, it's a wonderful option! Perhaps it is not truly extended to all, that's just a small part of what I don't understand. I know what the Bible says about "the right way, trying hard enough," and I know what worked for me. Billy Holiday sang (and wrote?) a song, "God Bless the Child who's got his own." Some things truly are personal.

Well what belief definitely is not, is Jesus. So many Christians say that salvation comes from Jesus, but then turn right around and say that the salvation comes from the belief in Jesus.

You know, one of the best sermons I ever heard was along these lines. Preach it!

 

[Zipi]

While this is an interesting scenario, let's keep my statement in context, that it is just one of many possible options Woden failed to account for.

Would you like to tell us all the scenarios?

 

[Gabe7]

I don't think anyone can say for sure what God does with well behaved atheists. Except for God that is.