Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Rajni]

You have already made a mistake in substantiating your assessment of the christian theory, much more in your following evaluations.

I would also add that, having done time as a Christian for 45 years, I have a very good grasp of Christian theory. And I'm very thankful that it is, indeed, just a theory!

.

 

[briareos]

Philosoraptor,

AHAH! Now I see it.

But who says the entirety of Christianity is contained in the Bible?

Ok, you responded with the intent of saying 'well maybe the bible isn't all that is relevant to christianity" when I tried to force all discussion of biblical teaching to be confined to accurate biblical teaching.

I say it simply doesn't matter what something else says, an accurate assessment of biblical teaching needs to actually be... an accurate assessment of biblical teaching. What some other source of insight may be simply doesn't affect what the bible says. And what the bible says... is the discussion.

 

[briareos]

chaela

Briareos, do you believe Jesus saved mankind or do you believe belief saves mankind?

Well that isn't a fair question, kind of like asking me if I have stopped beating my wife yet and I have to say yes or no. Neither of the choices you give me completely represent my beliefs and neither relieve me of an immediate castigation by you if I choose either of them so I will not answer you

That someone is me - I didn't infer it from anyone else. I myself am the one claiming that the purpose behind Christ's sacrifice, just like any other aspect of reality, stands regardless of what we believe about it.

Ok that's cool. I will only say that such is not what the bible teaches. I was under the impression that you were pursuing fault in that idea and saying that I said that.

I would also add that, having done time as a Christian for 45 years, I have a very good grasp of Christian theory. And I'm very thankful that it is, indeed, just a theory!

I have no desire to claim you are ignorant of correct christian theory but I will say that I am leaning toward believing that becuase of how you agreed with a completely incorrect assessment of it earlier. I am happy to say that it is true Thank God.

 

[The Philosoraptor]

Philosoraptor,

AHAH! Now I see it.



Ok, you responded with the intent of saying 'well maybe the bible isn't all that is relevant to christianity" when I tried to force all discussion of biblical teaching to be confined to accurate biblical teaching.

I say it simply doesn't matter what something else says, an accurate assessment of biblical teaching needs to actually be... an accurate assessment of biblical teaching. What some other source of insight may be simply doesn't affect what the bible says. And what the bible says... is the discussion.

Aye (and thanks for the kind words re: the name!)

I'm inclined to agree with you on the points of principle, however I can see the point I think chaela was originally making.

We could understand the sacrifice of Christ as being universal, regardless of our beliefs, and only negated by active rejection (i.e. people who were Christians and turned away from it have more to answer for than people who never had the chance to become Christians) or we could see the faith in the sacrifice as the active ingredient in salvation rather than the sacrifice itself (in which case, Islamic Faith may be just as justified as Christianity).

Either/or is a fair critique that we don't really have a watertight answer to. I know there's that whole "nobody can come to the father except through me" thing, however there's also room to interpret that as an extension of the allegory in "I am the way, the truth and the life". We've got issues pinning down exactly what "accurate teaching" is when it comes to the bible. (Personally I'm doubtful if we can ever hope to rise above an "informed reading" from scriptures)

 

[briareos]

The Philosoraptor

I'm inclined to agree with you on the points of principle, however I can see the point I think chaela was originally making.

Well he wasn't really advocating a belief, he was criticizing what he believes to be the typical christian belief and what he thinks the bible teaches. That being that the bible teaches or that christians believe Salvation is primarily of our creation. His conclusion that the bible or that people here think that is in error.

We could understand the sacrifice of Christ as being universal, regardless of our beliefs, and only negated by active rejection (i.e. people who were Christians and turned away from it have more to answer for than people who never had the chance to become Christians) or we could see the faith in the sacrifice as the active ingredient in salvation rather than the sacrifice itself (in which case, Islamic Faith may be just as justified as Christianity).

Either/or is a fair critique that we don't really have a watertight answer to. I know there's that whole "nobody can come to the father except through me" thing, however there's also room to interpret that as an extension of the allegory in "I am the way, the truth and the life". We've got issues pinning down exactly what "accurate teaching" is when it comes to the bible. (Personally I'm doubtful if we can ever hope to rise above an "informed reading" from scriptures)

Ah, well I will say that I do not agree with that that such a freedom of interpretation is available from the bible. I think it is much more clear.

 

[Zipi]

ajtoce answered this question: "Jesus said that you must be reborn to enter, or even see, the kingdom of heaven. You must understand this: Jesus didn't come to make "bad" people be "good". He came to give life to spiritually dead people. (all of us are spiritually dead in Adam)". We can explain this better for you if you want to know more about it.

But your saying that he came to give them spiritually, but corrected me if im wrong but that means teaching them to be good because to be seen by god you need to be good and then you see heaven. Also more detail please?

 

[Rajni]

Briareos, do you believe Jesus saved mankind or do you believe belief saves mankind?

Well that isn't a fair question, kind of like asking me if I have stopped beating my wife yet and I have to say yes or no. Neither of the choices you give me completely represent my beliefs and neither relieve me of an immediate castigation by you if I choose either of them so I will not answer you

Don't worry I won't castigate!! Sorry -- let me readjust the question:

Do you believe that it is Jesus alone who saves, or belief in Jesus that saves? In other words, which do you think is the active ingredient in this process?

That someone is me - I didn't infer it from anyone else. I myself am the one claiming that the purpose behind Christ's sacrifice, just like any other aspect of reality, stands regardless of what we believe about it.

Ok that's cool. I will only say that such is not what the bible teaches. I was under the impression that you were pursuing fault in that idea and saying that I said that.

If my assertion isn't true (that Christ's sacrifice stands apart from what we believe), then this can only mean that my previous paraphrase of Christian belief/Bible teaching (in post #22) was indeed accurate.

.

 

[briareos]

Zipi

But your saying that he came to give them spiritually,

Give them what?

but corrected me if im wrong but that means teaching them to be good

No, it means imparting salvation, goodness should follow but it is not what is imparted thought is in effect a ripple in the water.

because to be seen by god you need to be good

No, to enter heaven you need be saved, something else entirely that is not completely dependent upon a persons goodness. To be heard by God you do not need to be good.

and then you see heaven. Also more detail please?

Your pretty much asking him to recite the entire book of romans. If you have a genuine enterest, then google and read the ESV of the first several chapters of the book of Romans. Or you could make a post in the christian area and genuinely ask the Christians to explain their beleif or the bible.

 

[briareos]

chaela

Don't worry I won't castigate!! Sorry -- let me readjust the question:

Do you believe that it is Jesus alone who saves, or belief in Jesus that saves? In other words, which do you think is the active ingredient in this process?

Ok, I will simply tell you that neither of those things independent of the other create a saved status in a person. Both play a very valid part.

If my assertion isn't true (that Christ's sacrifice stands apart from what we believe), then this can only mean that my previous paraphrase of Christian belief/Bible teaching (in post #22) was indeed accurate.

No it doesn't, the belief that it does is derived from ignoring several details on the subject, an ignorance of several key teachings. Your belief that Jesus' power to save stands independent of our decisions or beliefs is the only alternative to the belief that our decisions stand independent of or is the primary factor in salvation is not correct. Not only are both teachings wrong according to scripture, so is your method of choosing between them. It is ripping two ideas completely free of their grounding reasons and details and placing them as opposites and the only choices. They are both incorrect to scripture, and as such they are not the only choices we have.

 

[ajtoce]

But your saying that he came to give them spiritually, but corrected me if im wrong but that means teaching them to be good because to be seen by god you need to be good and then you see heaven. Also more detail please?

ok here it is in the simplest terms:

Christ's death gives us the ability to have a direct relationship with God.

romans 6:33 the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

john 17:3 (jesus speaking) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

we are slaves to sin, but when you accept the free gift of eternal life, the power of sin and death is broken in your life and you are free to live the life God has for you without being led around by your old sinful desires. the bible actually says that while we were once slaves to sin, we are now slaves to righteousness. that is why when you are saved, the natural fruit of that is good deeds, among many other things.

 

[Rajni]

If my assertion isn't true (that Christ's sacrifice stands apart from what we believe), then this can only mean that my previous paraphrase of Christian belief/Bible teaching (in post #22) was indeed accurate.

No it doesn't, the belief that it does is derived from ignoring several details on the subject, an ignorance of several key teachings. Your belief that Jesus' power to save stands independent of our decisions or beliefs is the only alternative to the belief that our decisions stand independent of or is the primary factor in salvation is not correct. Not only are both teachings wrong according to scripture, so is your method of choosing between them. It is ripping two ideas completely free of their grounding reasons and details and placing them as opposites and the only choices. They are both incorrect to scripture, and as such they are not the only choices we have.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. What are the "grounding reasons and details" you mention?

At any rate, if the power of Christ to save is even slightly contingent upon personal human belief, then logically it is belief which is the active ingredient in the salvation process. In that scenario, Christ's saving power is limited by mere human opinion, reducing His power to save to that of any mere mortal (which is to say no power at all).

What is ironic in that scenario is that Adam, a mere human, was able to impact thoroughly all of mankind with the effects of his transgression without any help from us in the believing department, and yet God Incarnate can't really do anything to fix that for us unless we help Him out first with belief. It doesn't compute. This makes Adam out to be more powerful than God.

I don't have to believe in gravity before gravity holds me to the earth, because gravity is real apart from what I believe. Same with the reality of earth revolving around the sun. It's a reality that stands regardless of what beliefs I have about it.

Since reality stands apart from what we believe about it, and if Christ's sacrifice is a reality, why would it be influenced by our belief any more than any other aspect of reality?

To paraphrase a saying, The creature's inability to believe does not handicap the Creator's ability to save.

 

[Doveaman]

I'm afraid that's something that's specific to Protestantism (and, as far as I'm aware, even then only to a few of the more extreme sects) which is based upon their interpretation of St. Paul's letters.

Not only Paul, Jesus too.

They believe that only Faith in Christ is the route to salvation, and erego, no faith, no salvation.

That was Jesus' idea, not Protestants:

Jesus gave them this answer..."You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life...I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 5:39-40, John 14:6.

Most world religions have a different view. The Catholic Church, for example, states in it's Catechism (847)

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"

Except that that is just an opinion. Unfortunately we are not saved by opinions, no matter whose opinion it is.

 

[Doveaman]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

Let Jesus answer that for you:

Jesus answered. "No one is good — except God alone." - Mark 10:18.

Therefore your OP is making a false assumption.

You have to understand that evil is our default state and hell is our default destiny. What is needed is someone to save us from our default state and destiny. That's where Jesus comes in.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6.

 

[Gishin]

Good by whose standards? Yours or God's?

If we don't use the same standards then why do we use the same words?

 

[TerranceL]

Well that's a pretty crappy thing to say... strawman all day long. I see it wasn't really an argument at all but hey man, be fair.

The OP spoke of biblical teaching, so the biblical teaching is actually relevant and doesn't seem to be being discussed much. It's only to fair to discuss the reality of the teaching concerned, it is also needed in order to be accurate in your assessment.

What strawman? If you don't belong to the right club have all the right beliefs you don't go to heaven, which part of that is wrong?

 

[Jade Margery]

You have to understand that evil is our default state and hell is our default destiny. What is needed is someone to save us from our default state and destiny.

Why? Why are we default evil?

 

[Woden84]

Why? Why are we default evil?

Well, if we start from the premise that an omnipotent omniscient god created us, then it's because that's the way he wanted it.

 

[solarwave]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

You have probably got alot of different answers, so I'll give you one more.

I my opinion it isn't about actions or beliefs, it is about the condition of that heart. True forgiveness comes in repentance, which is saying sorry and turning away from your evil ways to try to do good. People will fail, but the point is trying to be good. Not in a vague sort of way, but a real commitment to goodness.

This change of heart is expressed in action and made sense of in beliefs. Both action and belief wont be perfect though.

So I cannot say who is saved and who isn't. I don't limit salvation to only Christians, but I find it safer to assume certain types of people are more likely to be saved than others.

 

[briareos]

What strawman? If you don't belong to the right club have all the right beliefs you don't go to heaven, which part of that is wrong?

A strawman is creating an exagerated version of the opposing theory and arguing against IT, rather than the opposing theory itself. like creating a strawman and attacking it, rather than the person you oppose.

Your assessment isn't correct. It isn't clubbish and all the right beleifs is not the requirement, both parts are wrong.

 

[Skavau]

It is not an issue of an inability to recognize God, but a refusal to do so.

That is still a nod to thought crime. It is also as it happens to be an untrue statement, a smear against all atheists and an allegedly omniscient superpower should know why atheists don't conform.

Usually that is rooted in a refusal to admit there is a higher authority than oneself, or than some other concept to which one is loyal.

You have absolutely no way of knowing this is true. It certainly is not for me and is not and has never ever been for any atheist, anti-theist or humanist minded person I have ever met.

There's a reason atheists are, and always have been, rare as a percentage of the human population: the existence of a higher power is in-built knowledge in us all.

What's your explanation for its substantial growth in particular across Europe right now? Some countries in Europe could be considered to have a majority of non-religious 'adherents' now and those countries are amongst some of the best on the planet as well. I also look at the census when it comes back here with specific interest as I expect Christianity may have had some significant decay here from 10 years ago.

And yes, a refusal to seek out the identity and nature of that higher power--especially when such knowledge is readily available--is itself wrong.

Great. So you admit you do support thought crime. Worse, you support thought crime that holds eternal torture for those who don't conform.

But you did not answer my question: Do you think that you personally happen to be rebelling against the Islamic conception of God?

But that is not what dooms us; our sin dooms us.

Born wretched and commanded to be perfect. Our 'sin' is a consequence of our imperfection, and if you're so inclined to think so our fallen nature. We were either designed imperfect or allowed to fall into corruption. It is to say that we cannot help to do otherwise than good at some point in our lives and this a burden imposed upon every human. You say that this necessarily demands eternal torture as a response if we don't accept the redemption of Jesus Christ? A pardon that absolves us of our moral responsibility that would otherwise apparently doom us.

Vicarious redemption is an incoherent concept that suggests that the resolution for a moral crisis one steeped in thought.