Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[briareos]

chaela

I'm not sure what you're saying here. What are the "grounding reasons and details" you mention?

I mean that you have taken an idea, isolated it from relevant and pertaining scripture, and it is incorrect.

At any rate, if the power of Christ to save is even slightly contingent upon personal human belief, then logically it is belief which is the active ingredient in the salvation process.

That isn't correct, it doesn't become the active ingredient becuase that ingredient alone isn't effectual either. Both are primary ingredients, equals?

In that scenario, Christ's saving power is limited by mere human opinion, reducing His power to save to that of any mere mortal (which is to say no power at all).

That's a bit of poetry and charisma, I would agree that his ability to save is not beyond the human choice becuase that is infact what the bible says. I disagree with you, that that means human choice is the only relevant factor. Demeaning the value or relevance of Christs part in it. I am debating truth concerning salvation as I wouldn't with you period, I am discussing accurate biblical interpretation. His power to save is limited to the human choice. Though that is not the same as his power being reduced to human levels. Those two ideas are not identical.

What is ironic in that scenario is that Adam, a mere human, was able to impact thoroughly all of mankind with the effects of his transgression without any help from us in the believing department, and yet God Incarnate can't really do anything to fix that for us unless we help Him out first with belief. It doesn't compute. This makes Adam out to be more powerful than God.

No it doesn't but I also don't want to follow every rabbit trail you can create.

I don't have to believe in gravity before gravity holds me to the earth, because gravity is real apart from what I believe. Same with the reality of earth revolving around the sun. It's a reality that stands regardless of what beliefs I have about it.

mmhmm

Since reality stands apart from what we believe about it, and if Christ's sacrifice is a reality, why would it be influenced by our belief any more than any other aspect of reality?

Becuase the bible says it is and therein lies the correctness of christian belief, you can believe something else if you like but it comes something other than christian or biblical. I am not debating truth or how to be saved, I am discussing accurate biblical interpretation. As that was and is my purpose for speaking to you, to show that your criticism of biblical teaching was based on a flawed view of it.

To paraphrase a saying, The creature's inability to believe does not handicap the Creator's ability to save.

That's a nice quote, simply doesn't resemble the teachings of the bible and as such is not a parallel to biblical theory. Whether that is how God actually works is a diffrent discussion. If you remove the discussion from such grounding factors and definitions, standards... such as the bible your discussing something completely diffrent and I don't intend to do that. I will discuss my beliefs and my beliefs are centered around the bible.

 

[citizenthom]

Point of order: why SHOULD God save people who reject and defy Him?

 

[Ampersand]

Why does the Nameless God do anything?

 

[SonOfTheWest]

As a heretical Christian who believes in the non canonical gospels that preach universal salvation this is not an issue for me as it is other Christians. Thankfully.

 

[visionary]

There are many who hear His voice and follow Him, even if they do not know Him by His name..

John 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[BleedingHeart]

Point of order: why SHOULD God save people who reject and defy Him?

Why should the X-Men save people that hate/reject/fear them? Sounds like Somebody has vanity issues.

 

[Skavau]

Point of order: why SHOULD God save people who reject and defy Him?

Because no-one is necessarily rejecting him. They just don't believe in him. There's a massive difference.

 

[Tergle]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

Since you atheists assert that religions like Christianity have no valid argument for believing them, or in them, why in Darwin's name would you pose this question?

Sounds like goading to me?

Because, both Jesus and Paul say that the "good person" doing what is right by some kind of mysterious power within them (placed there by God) is more than likely in the Fluffy White Cloud Forever Club. But seeing what atheists actually do, logically, I would tend to think that there isn't going to a massive contingent "up there."

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Why should the X-Men save people that hate/reject/fear them? Sounds like Somebody has vanity issues.

You won the thread.

 

[BleedingHeart]

Since you atheists assert that religions like Christianity have no valid argument for believing them, or in them, why in Darwin's name would you pose this question?

Sounds like goading to me?

Because, both Jesus and Paul say that the "good person" doing what is right by some kind of mysterious power within them (placed there by God) is more than likely in the Fluffy White Cloud Forever Club. But seeing what atheists actually do, logically, I would tend to think that there isn't going to a massive contingent "up there."

I like how you talk about goading and then follow up with your typical stupid anti-atheist remarks.

@SonoftheWest. I always do, man. I always do.

 

[Tergle]

I like how you talk about goading and then follow up with your typical stupid anti-atheist remarks.

Goading? I am a Christian. Not stupid, and obviosuly anti atheism. "I" am not sending anyone to hell. They buy their own ticket. Where on earth would you get the idea that the Gospel is in any way not anti-atheist? My choice of Christ makes being an anti-atheist a certainty. Is that somehow news to anyone of the "freethinkers" here?

Like the humanist manifesto (s), the Gospel makes a stand against other belief systems. And without a doubt, atheism is one of them.

 

[Jade Margery]

Goading? I am a Christian. Not stupid, and obviosuly anti atheism.

Teehee.

 

[Tergle]

Teehee.

Picks up ball and goes home. Leaving me to my game.

 

[Jade Margery]

Picks up ball and goes home. Leaving me to my game.

Again, teehee.

Not going anywhere, just amused. Easily, I suppose.

 

[BleedingHeart]

And without a doubt, atheism is one of them.

 

[TerranceL]

A strawman is creating an exagerated version of the opposing theory and arguing against IT, rather than the opposing theory itself. like creating a strawman and attacking it, rather than the person you oppose.

Your assessment isn't correct. It isn't clubbish and all the right beleifs is not the requirement, both parts are wrong.

So christians don't all meet every sunday at a little club house?

And there aren't certain beliefs you need to have in order to get into heaven?

Are you sure you actually know what a christian is?

 

[briareos]

TerranceL

So christians don't all meet every sunday at a little club house?

nope

And there aren't certain beliefs you need to have in order to get into heaven?

There are but that doesn't equal what you've said.

Are you sure you actually know what a christian is?

mmhmm.

 

[quatona]

If there is non of God in you, then there is no good in you.

What makes you think that there is "non of God" in an atheist?

Why would God take people to His Heaven if they do not want to be there?

Well, why would he send them to hell if they do not want to be there?

It would no longer be Heaven because there are people who do not want to be there.

What makes you think that an atheist does not want to be in heaven?

 

[The Philosoraptor]

Not only Paul, Jesus too.
That was Jesus' idea, not Protestants:

Jesus gave them this answer..."You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life...I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 5:39-40, John 14:6.
Except that that is just an opinion. Unfortunately we are not saved by opinions, no matter whose opinion it is.

Then it is mightily odd that the idea didn't crop up until about 1521 when Martin Luther started producing theology!

Matt 7:26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

(We all have bibles, and quoting them without contextual analysis is never going to be a crushing rejoinder)

Jesus preached faith & action in harmony, neither one exceeding the other. James (chapter 2) follows a similar path. It was not until the Pauline letters were translated by Luther that sola fides entered theological lexicon and became a dominant interpretation in Protestant thought.

I'm not saying that this understanding necessarily wrong, however to claim that it is based on Christ rather than Paul is both scripurally and historically innacurate.

 

[Jade Margery]

What makes you think that an atheist does not want to be in heaven?

Aye, IF there is a heaven, I'd certainly rather be there than go to hell. Duh. I'd even apologize to big guy, though I'd have a lot of questions.

On the other hand, I'd also much rather go to Valhalla than Hel, but you don't see me trying to get myself gloriously killed in battle to get in good with Odin.

And I'd rather be in the Elysian fields than the River Styxx, but I'm probably not going to tell my friends and family to stuff my mouth with pennies when I croak.

I'd rather transcend to a plane of bliss and enlightenment than be reincarnated as a toad, but I'm not going to spend all of my life meditating.

I'd rather be taken to the stars to live eternally as a king than be stuck under the earth as a peasant, but I'm not going to save up to have a giant pyramid built to house my mummified remains.

I find all these versions of the afterlife equally implausible--and these are just some of the major religions and mythologies. There are so many, many religions on this planet. Why should I change my life to suit one but not all the others?