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Atheist morality.

Gadarene

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If anything Christians should be more humble and put others first. Secular society is built of materialism and having things. On power and position and the haves and have nots. It is built on self and looking after self and keeping up with the jones. So I'm not sure where you are coming from on that one. By saying this you are creating a division in itself by putting down a christian.

Rubbish. Plenty of affluent Christians who reinforce income disparity and plenty of secularists who are trying to tear it down.

Incidentally, secularism and Christianity are not mutually exclusive.
 
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stevevw

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Rubbish. Plenty of affluent Christians who reinforce income disparity and plenty of secularists who are trying to tear it down.

Incidentally, secularism and Christianity are not mutually exclusive.
Who said they are Christians. The bible says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. These rich churches who parade around with all the prompt and glitter are no more christian than a businessman's club. They do everything that secular society does except they make themselves feel a little better by putting a fraction of that in the donations plate.

The western countries like the US and Australia use up to 4 planets worth of resources to live compared to 3rd world countries that may use not even a one planet. But your right a person who doesn't go to church but gives of themselves when they may not be able to afford it is much more a christian. But the fact is in general society is geared towards materialism and consumerism so people will be caught up in that. As a christian we have to put that last. The bible says anyone who loves his life here will lose it and those who hate this worldly life will gain eternal life.
 
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stevevw

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Ah, is being rich and mean spirited the latest sin you're going to try and excuse away in Christians by resorting to No True Scotsmen fallacies?

No thats what you are saying. You keep placing all the conditions and criteria for what a person should be like not me. I am just saying what the bible says. It doesn't say you can be rich and it doesn't say a rich person can never enter the heaven. It just acknowledges that it is harder. Maybe because the things of heaven dont rely on money and materialistic things. But then its not the first to say that. Didn't the Beatles say money cant buy me love. As for the mean spirited part well I dont know where you got that from as i didn't mention anything like that.
 
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keith99

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No thats what you are saying. You keep placing all the conditions and criteria for what a person should be like not me. I am just saying what the bible says. It doesn't say you can be rich and it doesn't say a rich person can never enter the heaven. It just acknowledges that it is harder. Maybe because the things of heaven dont rely on money and materialistic things. But then its not the first to say that. Didn't the Beatles say money cant buy me love. As for the mean spirited part well I dont know where you got that from as i didn't mention anything like that.

Really?

I love how Christians stop reading scripture where it suits them. Let's make the supreme effort to read the very next line in Scripture.

25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"…

Through much of history those with wealth have been thought of as being favored by God. What Jesus said does not reverse it, it just eliminates or reduces it.

The disciples did not see this as meaning it would be easier for the poor to enter heaven, they saw it as being nearly impossible for all men.

Of course many Christians today think they understand what Jesus said far better than the men he mentored for years. In doing that they add the sin of pride to their ever growing list.
 
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JGG

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What gives you that impression. I have just explained that all are sinners and that a christian realizes their weakness and inability to do it on their own.

If anything I am saying that you have to be honest with yourself and acknowledge your limitations. The only difference between a christian and a non christian is that they have trusted God to be in their life and help them overcome things. They are actually submitting and lowering themselves not putting themselves on a pedal-stool. Christ was humble and his followers were humble. Jesus was saying dont tell others of my miracles. He was saying treat others like you want to be treated. He washed the feet of his disciples as a mark of showing he was a servant and obedient to God.

If anything Christians should be more humble and put others first. Secular society is built of materialism and having things. On power and position and the haves and have nots. It is built on self and looking after self and keeping up with the Jones. So I'm not sure where you are coming from on that one. A christian is subjecting his will to the will of God so this is not superiority.

So, what do you call someone who does not have a godly nature, who is angry, whose life is not reigned in? What do we call someone who cannot change things across the board, or at best, just one thing at a time? What do we call these people who do have open eyes, or do not have a healthy respect for sin? What do we call someone who is boastful and selfish? Who place power and position? Who are obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses? What do we call a pitiful person such as that? They sure seem inferior.
 
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Cearbhall

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If anything Christians should be more humble and put others first. Secular society is built of materialism and having things. On power and position and the haves and have nots. It is built on self and looking after self and keeping up with the Jones. So I'm not sure where you are coming from on that one. A christian is subjecting his will to the will of God so this is not superiority.
You think that human beings need religion to be good people? You wish. Do you have anything to back up these claims about secular culture?
 
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stevevw

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You think that human beings need religion to be good people? You wish. Do you have anything to back up these claims about secular culture?

I dont need any backup, its common knowledge. What do the western countries operate on. Capitalism and consumerism. What do we need to have things, money. What gets money work. Why do people invest, money and why do we have banks so that we can make more money. What is all this subject to, the stock market. What is the stock market geared by, profits. How are profits made from selling things and services. How are profits improved by cutting costs like labor and supplies. What do share holders want , more dividends from better profits. It all feeds its self and is self perpetuating. The Money and the banks are the Gods and we worship this and it controls us. But we know this system of things it failing and falling apart and will collasp again and again.

I'm not saying people need religion to be good. I am saying that society is a form of religion in itself. We are subject to the demands of capitalism. We are slaves to work and money. People want better jobs and cars and houses and health and education ect. But money can corrupt and the rich get richer and the poor get bigger. Profits before people and do dirty deals to make more money. So long as people have what they need they are alright and to bad for those who havnt. Thats why there is class and divisions and poverty.

To follow Jesus is to not get caught up in all this and make it the most important thing rather than God. Those who pretend to say they are Christians but live for money and things are kidding themselves. They are no different and Jesus will not know them. There is coming a time where all will be held accountable. It is time to start choosing this life or eternal life. This life only lasts a blink of the eye and its gone. No amount of riches and things will truly make you happy.
 
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Syd the Human

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I dont need any backup, its common knowledge. What do the western countries operate on. Capitalism and consumerism. What do we need to have things, money. What gets money work. Why do people invest, money and why do we have banks so that we can make more money. What is all this subject to, the stock market. What is the stock market geared by, profits. How are profits made from selling things and services. How are profits improved by cutting costs like labor and supplies. What do share holders want , more dividends from better profits. It all feeds its self and is self perpetuating. The Money and the banks are the Gods and we worship this and it controls us. But we know this system of things it failing and falling apart and will collasp again and again.

I'm not saying people need religion to be good. I am saying that society is a form of religion in itself. We are subject to the demands of capitalism. We are slaves to work and money. People want better jobs and cars and houses and health and education ect. But money can corrupt and the rich get richer and the poor get bigger. Profits before people and do dirty deals to make more money. So long as people have what they need they are alright and to bad for those who havnt. Thats why there is class and divisions and poverty.

To follow Jesus is to not get caught up in all this and make it the most important thing rather than God. Those who pretend to say they are Christians but live for money and things are kidding themselves. They are no different and Jesus will not know them. There is coming a time where all will be held accountable. It is time to start choosing this life or eternal life. This life only lasts a blink of the eye and its gone. No amount of riches and things will truly make you happy.

"cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapətlˌizəm/Submit
noun
1.
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

"con·sum·er·ism noun \kən-ˈsü-mə-ˌri-zəm, -mər-ˌi-\
: the belief that it is good for people to spend a lot of money on goods and services

: the actions of people who spend a lot of money on goods and services"

So, before we continue let's get some things straight. Are there some side effects to having a capitalist society? Yes, but that does not mean the whole system is wrong.

I have yet to see a more effective system than capitalism. What would you suggest we do instead?

Besides, having a job is not a bad thing.

Having money to provide for yourself and family is not a bad thing.

If a person becomes obsessed with their job and/or money then yes, it is a bad thing. But becoming obsessed with anything is a bad thing.

We have banks to protect our money. If I stored all the money I had in my house and the house burnt down or someone came in and stole it I would be screwed. I would have no money to support myself.

And not all investors are people who are obsessed with money. Anyone can invest. Some have no intention on hitting it big, but to just have a steady flow of a little income. I had a teacher who invested in things like ketchup. He said it would not get him a lot of money, but it provided a little extra income that was dependable.

The phrase, "Don't throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater" comes to mind.
 
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madaz

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The bible says anyone who loves his life here will lose it and those who hate this worldly life will gain eternal life.

What repugnant dogma, kind of strange behaviour for a creator god too.
 
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stevevw

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"cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapətlˌizəm/Submit
noun
1.
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

"con·sum·er·ism noun \kən-ˈsü-mə-ˌri-zəm, -mər-ˌi-\
: the belief that it is good for people to spend a lot of money on goods and services

: the actions of people who spend a lot of money on goods and services"

So, before we continue let's get some things straight. Are there some side effects to having a capitalist society? Yes, but that does not mean the whole system is wrong.

I have yet to see a more effective system than capitalism. What would you suggest we do instead?

Besides, having a job is not a bad thing.

Having money to provide for yourself and family is not a bad thing.

If a person becomes obsessed with their job and/or money then yes, it is a bad thing. But becoming obsessed with anything is a bad thing.

We have banks to protect our money. If I stored all the money I had in my house and the house burnt down or someone came in and stole it I would be screwed. I would have no money to support myself.

And not all investors are people who are obsessed with money. Anyone can invest. Some have no intention on hitting it big, but to just have a steady flow of a little income. I had a teacher who invested in things like ketchup. He said it would not get him a lot of money, but it provided a little extra income that was dependable.

The phrase, "Don't throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater" comes to mind.

Well they say if we evenly shared all we have so that no one had heaps there would be enough to feed every mouth in the world.But that would mean some dont get to be super rich and have more than they need. But thats not going to happen. But its better than what we have. So I would suggest plain outright sharing is a better way to do things.

No not everyone is the same, but the overall system is failing and causing more problems that its worth. This system will collasp again in the future as it does not work any more. This boom and bust cycle will continue and get worse. Countries will go broke and be bankrupt. This is happening to the US and the only way they have avoided it is to not face the inevitable and put it all off for now by borrowing a whole lot more money and digging an even deeper hole of debt. Yeah money works real good. Look how great it has worked for the western world.
 
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stevevw

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What repugnant dogma, kind of strange behaviour for a creator god too.

Why it is a simple principle that many beliefs and wise philosophies have. This life which is based on making this world the most important thing in the sense of building your empire and riches will not make you truly happen. Many people say this. They also say you cant take it with you so why build castles when you can live for the now and be happy. Why spend so much time and energy making money to get things if it kills you to do it. We tend to kill ourselves to achieve the status we think is important to make us happy and then find it wasn't the answer in the end. But this is how this world is geared to be driven to live this way. Because secular society believes this is all we have they then waste so much time driving themselves to get things and build these great comfortable lives only to have a heart attack because of the stress and strain to do it. Many say it is better to have love and health than make money and things the more important.

If you work hard to get things and build your empire what happens if you die before you enjoy it. What about those many stories of people who say they placed all the importance in money and materialism only to find it wasn't the answer and it didn't make them truly happy. What about those who get rich and money destroys their lives. You hear this time and time again. The Hollywood fairly tale is just that. They profess to live this perfect happy life with all the glitz and money but they are more unhappy than anyone behind the scenes. Always braking up and unhappy and going from one misguided thing to another.

They say the true happiness doesn't come from the things that this world says is happiness like flash cars or big houses or money and materialism but the simple things like love and health and having each other. Being able to be happy with self and who you are not what you have. All this is the very same principle that you dont have to go along with how this world does things to be truly happy. The most happy people dont have to have a lot and work on the non material things to be truly content. In fact surveys show that religious belief can make a person happier and content compared to the worry of conforming to the stresses of secular society.

So if i dont believe in God then this life is all there is. So it will be the most important and it is only for 60 or 70 years and that can go fast. That is it no more so we have to make the most of it. But if you believe in God then this life is just a blink in eternity and so it is not as important because i have forever in another life. But part of belief in God is about sacrifice and loving and helping others and putting others first as well. Its about doing gods will which wont always be what i want with its selfish desires. So Christians can seem like they are missing out but really what they receive in return for this commitment is a greater joy and serenity that this world cant give.

Jesus says he gives us peace but not as the world gives it.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.

The bible says we should store up our riches in heaven not on earth.
Matthew 6:19
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;…
 
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Cearbhall

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Who said they are Christians. The bible says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. These rich churches who parade around with all the prompt and glitter are no more christian than a businessman's club. They do everything that secular society does except they make themselves feel a little better by putting a fraction of that in the donations plate.
Great. They're still Christians if they identify as such. Don't expect the rest of us to care whether a certain Christian would respect that label.
 
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Nithavela

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What repugnant dogma, kind of strange behaviour for a creator god too.

It's kind of genius. No matter what you hate, you'll get loads of it.
 
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Syd the Human

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Well they say if we evenly shared all we have so that no one had heaps there would be enough to feed every mouth in the world.But that would mean some dont get to be super rich and have more than they need. But thats not going to happen. But its better than what we have. So I would suggest plain outright sharing is a better way to do things.

No not everyone is the same, but the overall system is failing and causing more problems that its worth. This system will collasp again in the future as it does not work any more. This boom and bust cycle will continue and get worse. Countries will go broke and be bankrupt. This is happening to the US and the only way they have avoided it is to not face the inevitable and put it all off for now by borrowing a whole lot more money and digging an even deeper hole of debt. Yeah money works real good. Look how great it has worked for the western world.

Really, the overall system of capitalism has more problems than it's worth? It's the only one that has been the most fair that humanity has been able to maintain.

You're suggesting communism (everyone sharing everything), which is basically bound to fail. I mean, look at North Korea.

So money does not exist in the non-western world?
 
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Syd the Human

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Why it is a simple principle that many beliefs and wise philosophies have. This life which is based on making this world the most important thing in the sense of building your empire and riches will not make you truly happen. Many people say this. They also say you cant take it with you so why build castles when you can live for the now and be happy. Why spend so much time and energy making money to get things if it kills you to do it. We tend to kill ourselves to achieve the status we think is important to make us happy and then find it wasn't the answer in the end. But this is how this world is geared to be driven to live this way. Because secular society believes this is all we have they then waste so much time driving themselves to get things and build these great comfortable lives only to have a heart attack because of the stress and strain to do it. Many say it is better to have love and health than make money and things the more important.

If you work hard to get things and build your empire what happens if you die before you enjoy it. What about those many stories of people who say they placed all the importance in money and materialism only to find it wasn't the answer and it didn't make them truly happy. What about those who get rich and money destroys their lives. You hear this time and time again. The Hollywood fairly tale is just that. They profess to live this perfect happy life with all the glitz and money but they are more unhappy than anyone behind the scenes. Always braking up and unhappy and going from one misguided thing to another.

They say the true happiness doesn't come from the things that this world says is happiness like flash cars or big houses or money and materialism but the simple things like love and health and having each other. Being able to be happy with self and who you are not what you have. All this is the very same principle that you dont have to go along with how this world does things to be truly happy. The most happy people dont have to have a lot and work on the non material things to be truly content. In fact surveys show that religious belief can make a person happier and content compared to the worry of conforming to the stresses of secular society.

So if i dont believe in God then this life is all there is. So it will be the most important and it is only for 60 or 70 years and that can go fast. That is it no more so we have to make the most of it. But if you believe in God then this life is just a blink in eternity and so it is not as important because i have forever in another life. But part of belief in God is about sacrifice and loving and helping others and putting others first as well. Its about doing gods will which wont always be what i want with its selfish desires. So Christians can seem like they are missing out but really what they receive in return for this commitment is a greater joy and serenity that this world cant give.

Jesus says he gives us peace but not as the world gives it.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.

The bible says we should store up our riches in heaven not on earth.
Matthew 6:19
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;…

When did loving the time here on Earth suddenly equal trying to become wealthy? That is a huge assumption to make.
 
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Cearbhall

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I'm sure there are better systems than capitalism. None of them have been thought up or successfully implemented, though. Yet.
Socialism works wonderfully in the Nordic region. You just need to have very little corruption, relatively little diversity, a relatively small country, and certain cultural values. ^_^
 
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