Atheist morality.

[stevevw]

One of the most misleading statistics ever. I'm not surprised you'd try and use it.

First, of those surveyed, how many were Christians before going into prison, as opposed to converting after already being incarcerated?

Second, of those claiming to be Christians, how many were ACTUALLY Christians, and not just claiming it? How many actually lived their lives according to Christian principle, as opposed to having their parents take them to a church once when they were six years old? If they claimed to be pink elephants, would you now be arguing that there are too many pink elephants in our prisons?


I never said anything about not being able to make moral choices. I asked about justifying their morals. And phony statistics are hardly "reality".

How can they claim to be a christian if they were doing things that put them in jail. Thats like a democrat doing everything that a republic does but still says hes a democrat. The proof is in the actions and the life lived. They are just saying they are a christian because it will either get them a better standing when in trouble or its the trendy thing to do. They may have converted while in jail as well. But then has there been any surveys to show if they do convert in jail how many have their lives changed and go onto live a better life and not get in trouble anymore.

 

[Cute Tink]

How can they claim to be a christian if they were doing things that put them in jail.

Because you don't have to be perfect to be a Christian

 

[Nithavela]

Isn't it against the forum rules to tell someone 'you are not a christian, no matter what you profess, because you don't behave in a way I perceive as christian'?

 

[Syd the Human]

How can they claim to be a christian if they were doing things that put them in jail. Thats like a democrat doing everything that a republic does but still says hes a democrat. The proof is in the actions and the life lived. They are just saying they are a christian because it will either get them a better standing when in trouble or its the trendy thing to do. They may have converted while in jail as well. But then has there been any surveys to show if they do convert in jail how many have their lives changed and go onto live a better life and not get in trouble anymore.

Wait a second, Christians are perfect people? Well since no one is perfect, I guess there is no such thing as a Christian.

 

[KCfromNC]

How can they claim to be a christian if they were doing things that put them in jail.

If you're claiming that we need to judge Christians based on their actions, there would be no Christians at all.

ETA - Dang, beaten to this. I guess when the response is so blindingly obvious I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, I'll add that Steve's response points to a doctrine of salvation via works - Christians are Christians because they choose to act in certain ways. Anyone else want a shot at the problems with this idea?

 

[selfinflikted]

As they don't believe in God, no, atheists don't get their morals from the same place. Also, I'm not talking about simply having morals, or about having similar morals. I'm talking about *justifying* one's morals.

I posit that Christians don't get their morals from the Bible, nor from god. They get them from the same places everyone else gets them - parents, society, empathy, critical thinking.

 

[bhsmte]

If you're claiming that we need to judge Christians based on their actions, there would be no Christians at all.

ETA - Dang, beaten to this. I guess when the response is so blindingly obvious I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, I'll add that Steve's response points to a doctrine of salvation via works - Christians are Christians because they choose to act in certain ways. Anyone else want a shot at the problems with this idea?

The problem is so obvious, it speaks for itself, no need to elaborate.

 

[keith99]

I posit that Christians don't get their morals from the Bible, nor from god. They get them from the same places everyone else gets them - parents, society, empathy, critical thinking.

But atheists do a lot more critical thinking on average. Many Christians it seems do no critical thinking.

 

[selfinflikted]

But atheists do a lot more critical thinking on average. Many Christians it seems do no critical thinking.

I dunno. I mean, I know a lot of atheists who aren't big thinkers. Myself included.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I dunno. I mean, I know a lot of atheists who aren't big thinkers. Myself included.

Stupidity makes no exclusions, that is for sure.

 

[keith99]

I dunno. I mean, I know a lot of atheists who aren't big thinkers. Myself included.

Yea, but look at some of the Christians out there who blindly accept whatever their pastor says.

Some not all by any means.

Note that someone who actually reads and tries to harmonize all of Scripture is taking on a pretty significant task in critical thinking. The rules may be different than for many other tasks, but they have to decide which verse takes precedence and why.

 

[stevevw]

Because you don't have to be perfect to be a Christian

Yeah but you dont go around taking drugs and robbing people. That is not a practicing christian. Yes they will sin but there is an active repentance and an effort to try not to do it again. If they are blatantly going around doing criminal activity then they are not a living christian. A christian has accepted Jesus into their heart and are born again in the spirit of God. The two dont go together. You cannot have Jesus in your heart and do all the stuff that these criminals are doing. So there is a big difference between.

 

[stevevw]

Wait a second, Christians are perfect people? Well since no one is perfect, I guess there is no such thing as a Christian.

Who said they are perfect thats your interpretation. There is a big difference between someone who sins and seeks forgiveness and repents and tries to become a better person and someone who says they are a christian and goes around just doing the opposite and hurting people.

 

[Gadarene]

Yeah but you dont go around taking drugs and robbing people. That is not a practicing christian. Yes they will sin but there is an active repentance and an effort to try not to do it again. If they are blatantly going around doing criminal activity then they are not a living christian. A christian has accepted Jesus into their heart and are born again in the spirit of God. The two dont go together. You cannot have Jesus in your heart and do all the stuff that these criminals are doing. So there is a big difference between.

Sure you can.

Every Christian has their struggles.

But hey, this logic is nothing new - just the usual backpedalling to try and make out that Christians are better than they are.

 

[stevevw]

If you're claiming that we need to judge Christians based on their actions, there would be no Christians at all.

ETA - Dang, beaten to this. I guess when the response is so blindingly obvious I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, I'll add that Steve's response points to a doctrine of salvation via works - Christians are Christians because they choose to act in certain ways. Anyone else want a shot at the problems with this idea?

Of course not but it just seems strange that someone would say the majority of people in Jail are Christians. Like you said Christians choose to act in certain ways. Somehow I dont think stealing cars and smoking crack is part of the actions. I understand that there are people who come to the church to seek help and that is what it is there for. Jesus said he came to save the sinners not preach to the converted. But once you hear the message of salvation things start to change. You find it hard to reconcile yourself with continuing to live like you once did. It starts to get at you and you will either try to change or ignore it and turn you back. It may take time for some and thats OK to as sometimes undoing a lot of damage takes time. But there is a change and a transformation that will begin and take hold. I remember i use to say I was a Catholic as that was what was on my birth certificate. I was anything but a catholic or christian at that stage. But it didn't stop me from saying it on forms and applications.

 

[Syd the Human]

Who said they are perfect thats your interpretation. There is a big difference between someone who sins and seeks forgiveness and repents and tries to become a better person and someone who says they are a christian and goes around just doing the opposite and hurting people.

How do you know those in jail wanted forgiveness too? You don't know their life.


Also, at what point does one stop being a Christian? Where is that line? When a person sins three times? Five?

 

[KCfromNC]

Of course not but it just seems strange that someone would say the majority of people in Jail are Christians.

Not strange at all, considering that's what the research shows. I'm sure you're full of excuses why this can't possibly be, but that's all they are - excuses.

Like you said Christians choose to act in certain ways.

If people could choose not to sin, there'd be no reason for Jesus in the first place. Is that the message you want people to get?

Somehow I dont think stealing cars and smoking crack is part of the actions.

According to the Bible neither is judging, and yet look at what you're here doing. You say you're a Christian, and that Christians can choose to act in Christian ways, and yet you're breaking the rules. Something's not adding up.

 

[goggles]

Of course not but it just seems strange that someone would say the majority of people in Jail are Christians. Like you said Christians choose to act in certain ways. Somehow I dont think stealing cars and smoking crack is part of the actions. I understand that there are people who come to the church to seek help and that is what it is there for. Jesus said he came to save the sinners not preach to the converted. But once you hear the message of salvation things start to change. You find it hard to reconcile yourself with continuing to live like you once did. It starts to get at you and you will either try to change or ignore it and turn you back. It may take time for some and thats OK to as sometimes undoing a lot of damage takes time. But there is a change and a transformation that will begin and take hold. I remember i use to say I was a Catholic as that was what was on my birth certificate. I was anything but a catholic or christian at that stage. But it didn't stop me from saying it on forms and applications.

I haven't read any of this thread and only a little bit of your other comments.

I am going to risk taking this out of context and say I actually agree with this comment. Most of it.

 

[Cute Tink]

Yeah but you dont go around taking drugs and robbing people. That is not a practicing christian. Yes they will sin but there is an active repentance and an effort to try not to do it again. If they are blatantly going around doing criminal activity then they are not a living christian. A christian has accepted Jesus into their heart and are born again in the spirit of God. The two dont go together. You cannot have Jesus in your heart and do all the stuff that these criminals are doing. So there is a big difference between.

Not all criminals "blatantly go around doing criminal activity". People make mistakes and they sometimes get desperate. Things happen. To make the claim that Christians are incapable of doing so, which it sure seems like you are saying, is rather absurd. You basically stated that no Christian could possibly do something that would land them in prison, as if no Christian is capable of slipping or making a mistake. While it would be nice if all people were capable of always sticking to their moral guidelines, nobody is perfect.

 

[durangodawood]

Just being human is to be sinning in Christian reckoning.

You dont have to be doing crimes and such.