Atheist morality.

[Nithavela]

You just get kicked out of the christian club when you commit crimes. The ammount of Christians imprisoned is zero (although many people become christians, and thus good and pure citizens, in prison)

 

[Ken-1122]

You just get kicked out of the christian club when you commit crimes. The ammount of Christians imprisoned is zero (although many people become christians, and thus good and pure citizens, in prison)

So Martin Luther King and others who were fighting the Segregation/Jim Crow laws of the South were not Christians because they committed civil disobediance crimes and went to Jail?

Ken

 

[stevevw]

How do you know those in jail wanted forgiveness too? You don't know their life.


Also, at what point does one stop being a Christian? Where is that line? When a person sins three times? Five?

This is something people get confused about. To me a Christian is someone who has accepted Christ into his life/heart/head. They will still sin and make mistakes but because Christ is in their life they will begin to change. They cant do both sin and be Christ like they just dont sit well with each other. There will be conflict in their lives because their sin is magnified and they begin to see this and cant live with it. Sometimes it will take a little time before they give in and hand themselves completely over to god.

Sometimes people change straight away. But they wont be going around for months saying they are a christian while they are robbing corner shops and committing crime. If they are then they are using this as a way of making themselves look better or get out of trouble. I have worked in this area most of my life and i think I know when someone is fair dinkum and someone is pulling the wool over someones eyes. The devil is a master at trickery and will use all sorts of ploys. Drug dependent people can be the most convincing con artist around and make a living out of deception.

Everyone has sinned and Christians still sin. But once a person receives Christ into his heart he is a changed person and are living in the spirit of God and their life will never be the same again.

 

[stevevw]

Because you don't have to be perfect to be a Christian

No one is perfect. I can understand a person who may have had a hard life and involved in drugs ect and hears the word of God and it can sometimes take a while for them to give in and let God into their lives. But if the message of God gets into their heat then they will be affected and it will be hard for them to keep doing the same thing. They will either get worse and try to block out what they know is true or give in and allow people and god to help them. But anyone who is continually going around saying they are a christian while knowingly doing crime and not caring is either in denial or not with it.

They are fooling themselves and everyone else and sooner or later it will catch up with them. People go to the other extreme and think that because you are a christian you get this get out of jail free card. No it actually becomes harder and you have more responsibility to do the right thing. You are still battling against all the things that everyone has like lust, anger, envy, greed ect but you have an person on your side that can give you the strength and example of how to overcome that by putting your life in Gods hand.

 

[JGG]

This is something people get confused about. To me a Christian is someone who has accepted Christ into his life/heart/head. They will still sin and make mistakes but because Christ is in their life they will begin to change. They cant do both sin and be Christ like they just dont sit well with each other. There will be conflict in their lives because their sin is magnified and they begin to see this and cant live with it. Sometimes it will take a little time before they give in and hand themselves completely over to god.

Sometimes people change straight away. But they wont be going around for months saying they are a christian while they are robbing corner shops and committing crime. If they are then they are using this as a way of making themselves look better or get out of trouble. I have worked in this area most of my life and i think I know when someone is fair dinkum and someone is pulling the wool over someones eyes. The devil is a master at trickery and will use all sorts of ploys. Drug dependent people can be the most convincing con artist around and make a living out of deception.

Everyone has sinned and Christians still sin. But once a person receives Christ into his heart he is a changed person and are living in the spirit of God and their life will never be the same again.

Always changed for the better?

 

[Syd the Human]

This is something people get confused about. To me a Christian is someone who has accepted Christ into his life/heart/head. They will still sin and make mistakes but because Christ is in their life they will begin to change. They cant do both sin and be Christ like they just dont sit well with each other. There will be conflict in their lives because their sin is magnified and they begin to see this and cant live with it. Sometimes it will take a little time before they give in and hand themselves completely over to god.

Sometimes people change straight away. But they wont be going around for months saying they are a christian while they are robbing corner shops and committing crime. If they are then they are using this as a way of making themselves look better or get out of trouble. I have worked in this area most of my life and i think I know when someone is fair dinkum and someone is pulling the wool over someones eyes. The devil is a master at trickery and will use all sorts of ploys. Drug dependent people can be the most convincing con artist around and make a living out of deception.

Everyone has sinned and Christians still sin. But once a person receives Christ into his heart he is a changed person and are living in the spirit of God and their life will never be the same again.

No I am not confused. As long as they do accept Jesus into their heart etc etc then they are a Christian, regardless of their actions. You're choosing which sins are worse than others, and the ones that are worse must mean that person is not a real christian. I don't think anyone can really make that call for others, even if one has seen it. And again, you don't know everyone in prison.

 

[JohnLocke]

Someone was talking about this earlier and I brought up that the atheists I know seem to take a moral stand according to what is politically correct wherever they live. Am I missing something? Is there a moral standard around the world that atheists go by or is it true that their moral fiber is determined by prevailing political winds?

Morality is not necessarily tied to religion or politics. It is quite possible for a person to develop a set of moral principles that have no connection with religious or political thought.

Many an atheist, for example, believes in the principle of self determination, and would then consequently hold that the consensual actions between persons able to give such consent are at least facially moral. Whereas actions against the will of one party are facially immoral.

There is no need to denigrate the atheist simply because he or she does not believe as you do. Similarly, there is no need to denigrate the Buddhist or the Hindu because they do not believe as you do. If you approach all with an openness toward understanding, you might find that they are not so very different from you after all.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Someone was talking about this earlier and I brought up that the atheists I know seem to take a moral stand according to what is politically correct wherever they live. Am I missing something? Is there a moral standard around the world that atheists go by or is it true that their moral fiber is determined by prevailing political winds?

You are presenting a false alternative. Ayn Rand's ethics has made a big influence on my sense of morality, and that was already starting two decades ago. It was certainly not due to any "prevailing political wind", and was far from politically correct at the time, or even today.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Nithavela]

So Martin Luther King and others who were fighting the Segregation/Jim Crow laws of the South were not Christians because they committed civil disobediance crimes and went to Jail?

Ken

I am sure that many white people of the time held this opinion. After all, the bible speaks of segregation by tribes, slavery of other trives and submitting to higher rulership, does it not? And many people used the Bible to reason for these laws.

 

[stevevw]

No I am not confused. As long as they do accept Jesus into their heart etc etc then they are a Christian, regardless of their actions. You're choosing which sins are worse than others, and the ones that are worse must mean that person is not a real christian. I don't think anyone can really make that call for others, even if one has seen it. And again, you don't know everyone in prison.

No that is what you are saying. Besides just because a person may say this doesn't mean they mean it or have done the actions. But any person who has truly accepted Jesus into their hearts will be born again and have a new nature in God. I am not choosing any sins but saying that a christian will not habitually sin. Their new nature will have changed them and be changing them. They will not want to sin because they are not a new person in Christ. They are transformed, made new and born again.

I cannot judge anyone's heart but i am merely saying what i believe is a christian according to what the bible says. So the best way to answer this would be to state what the bible says.

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]First of all the Bible declares that a Christian is a person who has been radically changed by the power of God. Many different Bible phrases enunciate this truth about a Christian. Some verses assert that a Christian is a person who has been created anew in Christ Jesus (II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:9, 10; Ephesians 2:10; Galatians 6:15). Other Bible verses aver that a Christian is a person who has become a partaker of the Divine nature (II Peter 1:2-4). This means that when a person becomes a Christian he receives a new nature from God. It Is divine In two senses. It is created and put within us by God (James 1:17); it is divine in that it is a holy nature even as God’s nature is holy (I John 2:29; 3:7; I Peter 1:15, 16). Still other Bible verses testify that a Christian is a person who has been begotten or born of God (James 1:18; I John 5:1; John 1:12, 13). Then too, the Bible states that a Christian is a person who has been regenerated or made to live again (Titus 3: 5) In addition to this, the Scriptures affirm that a Christian is a person who has passed from death unto life and been quickened from the dead (John 5:24, 25; Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13; Luke 15:24, 32).
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]These various Biblical phrases describing a Christian abundantly testify to the fact that a Christian is a person who has been radically changed by the power of God. Becoming a Christian is a supernatural operation of God upon the spirit of man. Becoming a Christian is not merely a matter of outward reformation; it is not merely a matter of turning over a new leaf and endeavoring to live a new life; it is not merely a matter of education or of religion.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Becoming a Christian is the implanting of an entirely new nature within man. It is being born again, being born from above, being made a new creation, being remade and reoriented at the center of being. J. C. Ryle described the change that takes place when a person becomes a Christian like this:

Can a true Christian sin or not? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
The Bible’s Answer To The Question: What Is A Christian? by by Wayne Mack



[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Gadarene]

But all Christians habitually sin.

I've heard of no true scotsmen, but literally no true Christians exist by this standard.

 

[Autumnleaf]

But all Christians habitually sin.

I've heard of no true scotsmen, but literally no true Christians exist by this standard.

How do you know? Have you met all Christians and followed them around to see they sin?

 

[quatona]

How do you know? Have you met all Christians and followed them around to see they sin?

Well, it´s a fundamental Christian tenet.

 

[stevevw]

Always changed for the better?

Its not just about being good and doing good works as a proof that you are a Christian. It is that the old sinful nature has died and the new godly nature has risen and been born in you. It is an acknowledgement that as I am and on my own I cant do it and beat sin. I am unworthy before God because without God I am prone to sin and I am stained by that sin. By admitting this I am realizing my weakness and inability to overcome my sinful nature. We are all the same and are born into this world with that sinful nature. It is inherited from the beginning with Adam and eve.When the ate the forbidden fruit they knew they had sinned and were now aware of what sin is. They hid themselves from God. Before this their nature didn't entertain this thought it wasn't in their nature. So we all have this sinful nature from birth and are prone to sin.

God sent his son To take on our sins and die for us so that he defeated the power that sin and death had over us. Satan was defeated because no matter what Jesus did not give into his temptations. Jesus was a man just as we were so he was subject to the weakness of temptation. But he fully trusted in God and overcame the power of sin. When he rose from the dead he overcame the power of a physical death, of decay and sickness and suffering. These were the results of sin coming into the world and now Christ had defeated this with his righteous sacrifice. He was worthy before God and makes us worthy when we put our trust and faith in him.

So when we accept Jesus we are taking on the spiritual nature and Jesus reins in our lives. The holy spirit is our guidance and reveals all that God is and wants in our lives. The old sinful nature is defeated and dies and we become a new person and born again in the spirit of God. So it is not us that is able to defeat the power of temptations of sin but the strength and power comes from Jesus in our lives. It is an active and living thing and not something that we can switch on and off. It will affect every aspect of your life from the inside out. Sometimes its like when someone is trying to give up say smoking but they also have say an anger issue. The two dont go well together. So may just try one thing at a time as its to hard to deal with more than one thing. As it is many fail just at that one thing and it often takes medication aids, strong will power and a lot of support.

But when someone experiences the change that Christ can have in their life it can change things across the board so that they are able to change multiple things at once. They are a new person, the old one that was angry or weak or gave in so easily has gone and there is this new strength and understanding. Its not the same for all and some people will gradually change but they will eventually completely change. It maybe they are not quite as open to fully receive Gods gift or havnt let go completely. But once it has started its hard to stop it and they will never be the same again. Its like they had their eyes opened and they caught a vision of what the truth was in their life and that it was a matter of saving their soul not just their physical being. In fact a healthy respect for what the consequences of sin and a spiritual death can shake a person into reality. As the bible says dont be scared of losing your physical body dying but be worried about losing your soul for ever.

 

[Gadarene]

Well, it´s a fundamental Christian tenet.

Right. They're perfected upon death. Till then they might try not to sin, but that says nothing about what moral failings they might succumb to. It's just excuse-making for bad behaviour to say that certain sins mean you're not a true Christian but other sins don't, and when they're all equally bad too.

 

[Gadarene]

How do you know? Have you met all Christians and followed them around to see they sin?

Given that they're human beings, they do.

 

[JGG]

Its not just about being good and doing good works as a proof that you are a Christian. It is that the old sinful nature has died and the new godly nature has risen and been born in you. It is an acknowledgement that as I am and on my own I cant do it and beat sin. I am unworthy before God because without God I am prone to sin and I am stained by that sin. By admitting this I am realizing my weakness and inability to overcome my sinful nature. We are all the same and are born into this world with that sinful nature. It is inherited from the beginning with Adam and eve.When the ate the forbidden fruit they knew they had sinned and were now aware of what sin is. They hid themselves from God. Before this their nature didn't entertain this thought it wasn't in their nature. So we all have this sinful nature from birth and are prone to sin.

God sent his son To take on our sins and die for us so that he defeated the power that sin and death had over us. Satan was defeated because no matter what Jesus did not give into his temptations. Jesus was a man just as we were so he was subject to the weakness of temptation. But he fully trusted in God and overcame the power of sin. When he rose from the dead he overcame the power of a physical death, of decay and sickness and suffering. These were the results of sin coming into the world and now Christ had defeated this with his righteous sacrifice. He was worthy before God and makes us worthy when we put our trust and faith in him.

So when we accept Jesus we are taking on the spiritual nature and Jesus reins in our lives. The holy spirit is our guidance and reveals all that God is and wants in our lives. The old sinful nature is defeated and dies and we become a new person and born again in the spirit of God. So it is not us that is able to defeat the power of temptations of sin but the strength and power comes from Jesus in our lives. It is an active and living thing and not something that we can switch on and off. It will affect every aspect of your life from the inside out. Sometimes its like when someone is trying to give up say smoking but they also have say an anger issue. The two dont go well together. So may just try one thing at a time as its to hard to deal with more than one thing. As it is many fail just at that one thing and it often takes medication aids, strong will power and a lot of support.

But when someone experiences the change that Christ can have in their life it can change things across the board so that they are able to change multiple things at once. They are a new person, the old one that was angry or weak or gave in so easily has gone and there is this new strength and understanding. Its not the same for all and some people will gradually change but they will eventually completely change. It maybe they are not quite as open to fully receive Gods gift or havnt let go completely. But once it has started its hard to stop it and they will never be the same again. Its like they had their eyes opened and they caught a vision of what the truth was in their life and that it was a matter of saving their soul not just their physical being. In fact a healthy respect for what the consequences of sin and a spiritual death can shake a person into reality. As the bible says dont be scared of losing your physical body dying but be worried about losing your soul for ever.

So...Christians always change for the better?

We agree that you're claiming that Christians are superior to others, yes?

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Well, it´s a fundamental Christian tenet.

That's true in general, but (there's always a "but") the way that different denominations understand that can vary a lot.

Some groups, mostly from the more conservative Wesleyan branches and their charismatic descendants, believe that Christians can receive a "second blessing" of Earthly moral perfection where they don't even desire to sin. Obviously that's pretty out there. I would imagine that it would require a drastic redefinition of what behaviors are sinful. Or, at the very least, it would require that you be at a point in life where...certain things...wouldn't be considered sin.

 

[Cute Tink]

How do you know? Have you met all Christians and followed them around to see they sin?

Are you saying that there are Christians who are perfect or that "true Christians" are perfect?

 

[stevevw]

So...Christians always change for the better?

We agree that you're claiming that Christians are superior to others, yes?

What gives you that impression. I have just explained that all are sinners and that a christian realizes their weakness and inability to do it on their own. If anything I am saying that you have to be honest with yourself and acknowledge your limitations. The only difference between a christian and a non christian is that they have trusted God to be in their life and help them overcome things. They are actually submitting and lowering themselves not putting themselves on a pedal-stool. Christ was humble and his followers were humble. Jesus was saying dont tell others of my miracles. He was saying treat others like you want to be treated. He washed the feet of his disciples as a mark of showing he was a servant and obedient to God.

If anything Christians should be more humble and put others first. Secular society is built of materialism and having things. On power and position and the haves and have nots. It is built on self and looking after self and keeping up with the Jones. So I'm not sure where you are coming from on that one. A christian is subjecting his will to the will of God so this is not superiority.