At Crossroads -- Cf's Vision Discussion Thread (2) - Please Vote in Poll Thread

[tulc]

whoever ever gained anything but false ego by not listening and understanding what the other has to say ?

tulc(and one more for good measure)

 

[JDIBe]

Regardless of how you feel, it might be profitable to take a look at the "Outreach" section, "Questions by Non-Christians" folder. It might provide a preview of the direction the forum might head under option 1.

(I still think there is a place for this type of thing, but not all over the forum.)

 

[KomissarSteve]

I was a 'declared atheist' until I discovered that love itself is a worth 'god', worthy of respect and admiration, and that Jesus showed us perfection of that love and told us that is what we know of God for now...

That really is a lovely way of putting it. I've been a Christian all my life, but I think my view of God has evolved into something quite similar.

 

[KomissarSteve]

Ah, so. disparaging, derogatory, or belittling isn't sinister to you.

That is correct. One can easily be those things without meaning to be. I don't think the poster in question had any malignant agenda; I just think he wasn't being very mindful of how he was coming off.

And if the loss of the gospel isn't sinister to you, I wonder what would be.

"Sinister" would be an atheist coming into CF, pretending to be a Christian, and then knowingly and deliberately leading Christians away from Christ because he or she wanted to recruit more atheists.

What I described doesn't fit the definition of "sinister." It's bad, but somebody didn't necessarily have to have knowingly caused it to happen.

Well that's great. But I don't see a vote for option #1 as ever getting us to something in between.

Again, I'm not here to stand up for option 1. I'm here to confront the attitude that led to voting for option 2.

I don't think you've really looked into what's going on in terms of cross-proselytizing and inoculation ....

Again, I await any evidence that you have to the positive.

Ah. Now you're denying the result instead of the attempt.

I'm denying both, obviously.

Exactly what's your criterion? Just so you don't go slipping around mercurically like the past hundred posts. And is that a solid criterion? Do you expect it to change in the next 20 minutes, or 20 hours, or 20 days, or 20 months?

My criteria hasn't changed. You made the positive assertion that non-Christians on CF are knowingly and willingly dangerous to the faith of new Christians here; you have thus far failed to provide me with any strong evidence to back up that claim. All you've shown me is an incident in which there is absolutely no evidence of a sinister motive.

I'll ask for evidence as many different ways as I have to, until I get a satisfactory answer from you (ie: "Here is my evidence...," or "I don't have any more evidence"). But the question at the center remains the same: you indicate that a significant portion, if not all, of the non-Christians here are conspiring against CF. Can you back up your claim or not?

 

[KomissarSteve]

See, mikey? Leading by example. The non-Christians here aren't bad people, on the whole.

 

[Trish1947]

Don't forget politics, morals and ethics, and non-theological/metaphysical philosophy - which, it seems to me, really encapsulates the majority of the type of discussion that goes on here at CF, and has since before the change of rules, too.

And there wasn't enough forums in here to do that for both?

 

[heymikey80]

My criteria hasn't changed. You made the positive assertion that non-Christians on CF are knowingly and willingly dangerous to the faith of new Christians here; you have thus far failed to provide me with any strong evidence to back up that claim. All you've shown me is an incident in which there is absolutely no evidence of a sinister motive.

You've set criteria and moved them around as long as I've engaged ya. Back up & read your postings.

I'll ask for evidence as many different ways as I have to, until I get a satisfactory answer from you (ie: "Here is my evidence...," or "I don't have any more evidence"). But the question at the center remains the same: you indicate that a significant portion, if not all, of the non-Christians here are conspiring against CF. Can you back up your claim or not?

Not only did you just state something false that I've never claimed, you've continued to state falsehoods about your opposition throughout this multi-thousand-post thread.

Don't wonder that I won't further answer someone who can't establish a basis for his position and won't tell the truth about his opposition.

 

[stranger]

I don't think you've really looked into what's going on in terms of cross-proselytizing and inoculation ....

You made the positive assertion that non-Christians on CF are knowingly and willingly dangerous to the faith of new Christians here; you have thus far failed to provide me with any strong evidence to back up that claim

Religion has a long history of being a major threat to stealing men away from love, not to beliefe in love , as indeed what is behind this poll itself has shown ... atheists are a tiny minority in this world ,yet they do have some telling questions to ask of the particulat hypocrisy and unlovingness of many christians, even those who teach and proselytise ...

Jesus enlisted only saints to taech, but modern religion uses sinners , there is a difference... so divided religionist sinners with a 'zeal' to convert everyone are at leats as 'dangerous' , and I would say more so, than even the most ardent atheist ...

My experience of many athests is that they are sincere loving people and only ask christians the same questions that they are tackling themselves , or have found some truth about... thus this threat may be negligable compared to the threat from divided sinner christians within the site, not least from the ' right-wing christian conspiracy' motivated by zeal for their privvate beliefs, behind badgering Erwin into accepting this ridiculous poll and choosing democracy [which they think they can enginner control from] in place of the obvious theocracy of God's rule of Law of love between all men .......

One cannot obey Jesus and love all men by shutting people out ... God is big enough to deal eventually with even the most extreme of atheists ... we all know love in our hearts, bt chrsitains are as bad as anyone at not DOING it ,even HERE ...

 

[heymikey80]

Regardless of how you feel, it might be profitable to take a look at the "Outreach" section, "Questions by Non-Christians" folder. It might provide a preview of the direction the forum might head under option 1.

(I still think there is a place for this type of thing, but not all over the forum.)

http://www.christianforums.com/f74-questions-by-non-christians.html
Sure. Gather the information.

 

[IisJustMe]

On the one hand, my heart is for the lost and the hurting. On the other, it can be enormously hurtful and difficult to deal with them. Add in that they will see what imperfect, unlovely people we can be to each other that they will naturally ask themselves what could possibly be attractive to them about following Jesus.

What you have is a real dilemma.

I have voted for Option 1, but Erwin, it was an agonizing choice to make. I don't even like the fact I voted that way, but I have to choose to at least try to love the unlovely over making this forum an exclusive club of imperfect Christians who are no more loving to one another than the unbelievers are to us.

What I would hope for is this: You want revival? Then resolve to begin with yourself!

In the last year, month, five minutes ... have you posted an unkind, self-centered, egotistical and ugly remark to a fellow Christian? Or worse, to an unbeliever who knew he could get under your skin (because you wear your heart on your sleeve) by making a similar disparaging remark to you or a friend?

If so, you are the one I'm talking to right now. Do you raise doctrinal issues to the level (or above the level) of the saving message of the grace of Jesus Christ? Do you think it more important to espouse your particular denomination's articles of faith above the message of sin, grace, and God's love? Do you, by your discusion choices, make a single issue of worship more important to you than the sharing of the good news of what God has done in your life today? Do you come on this forum intent on arguing your opinion over discussing your f faith?

Even if you don't think you do, you probably do. I do. At least I'm honest enough to admit that. I'm not proud of it, but I'll own that fault as being mine.

When we as believers do that kind of thing, what are we saying to unbelievers? What do you suppose they think when they see us cut each other to ribbons over issues they don't understand, or even care about? How does it glorify God to insert verbal violence into another pointless rehash of tongues, OSAS, baptism, the Rapture, or any other favorite controversial subject? We often sound like a bunch of kindergartners playing the "My dad can beat up your dad" game, only we are pitting God against Himself, and I'm certain He does not approve. Read Mark 3:24, 26 for proof.

It is the primary mission of the body of Christ to spread the good news. We cannot do that by blocking the doors to our churches, our businesses or even our chat rooms and forums to the unbelievers we are supposed to evangelize.

But we've got to change our attitudes. We have to stop looking like the world. We have to stop shooting our own wounded, most of whom were wounded by "friendly fire."

Unless we are willing to look in the mirror and admit to the need for change, we may as well vote to have Erwin sell the servers to YouTube where they can really serve the world its own filth.

We have to act Christlike. Otherwise, what is the point?

 

[KomissarSteve]

And there wasn't enough forums in here to do that for both?

My point is, there's plenty of topics that atheists and Christians can discuss civilly without even getting onto the topic upon which they differ.

 

[Lisa0315]

On the one hand, my heart is for the lost and the hurting. On the other, it can be enormously hurtful and difficult to deal with them. Add in that they will see what imperfect, unlovely people we can be to each other that they will naturally ask themselves what could possibly be attractive to them about following Jesus.

What you have is a real dilemma.

I have voted for Option 1, but Erwin, it was an agonizing choice to make. I don't even like the fact I voted that way, but I have to choose to at least try to love the unlovely over making this forum an exclusive club of imperfect Christians who are no more loving to one another than the unbelievers are to us.

What I would hope for is this: You want revival? Then resolve to begin with yourself!

In the last year, month, five minutes ... have you posted an unkind, self-centered, egotistical and ugly remark to a fellow Christian? Or worse, to an unbeliever who knew he could get under your skin (because you wear your heart on your sleeve) by making a similar disparaging remark to you or a friend?

If so, you are the one I'm talking to right now. Do you raise doctrinal issues to the level (or above the level) of the saving message of the grace of Jesus Christ? Do you think it more important to espouse your particular denomination's articles of faith above the message of sin, grace, and God's love? Do you, by your discusion choices, make a single issue of worship more important to you than the sharing of the good news of what God has done in your life today? Do you come on this forum intent on arguing your opinion over discussing your f faith?

Even if you don't think you do, you probably do. I do. At least I'm honest enough to admit that. I'm not proud of it, but I'll own that fault as being mine.

When we as believers do that kind of thing, what are we saying to unbelievers? What do you suppose they think when they see us cut each other to ribbons over issues they don't understand, or even care about? How does it glorify God to insert verbal violence into another pointless rehash of tongues, OSAS, baptism, the Rapture, or any other favorite controversial subject? We often sound like a bunch of kindergartners playing the "My dad can beat up your dad" game, only we are pitting God against Himself, and I'm certain He does not approve. Read Mark 3:24, 26 for proof.

It is the primary mission of the body of Christ to spread the good news. We cannot do that by blocking the doors to our churches, our businesses or even our chat rooms and forums to the unbelievers we are supposed to evangelize.

But we've got to change our attitudes. We have to stop looking like the world. We have to stop shooting our own wounded, most of whom were wounded by "friendly fire."

Unless we are willing to look in the mirror and admit to the need for change, we may as well vote to have Erwin sell the servers to YouTube where they can really serve the world its own filth.

We have to act Christlike. Otherwise, what is the point?

Amen! Humbling post for me...

Lisa

 

[KomissarSteve]

You've set criteria and moved them around as long as I've engaged ya. Back up & read your postings.

I did, just to make sure, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Would you be so kind as to show me where I've moved around my criteria?

Not only did you just state something false that I've never claimed,

You've implied it pretty strongly, by attributing nefarious and sinister motives to the non-Christians here...

Don't wonder that I won't further answer someone who can't establish a basis for his position

I don't think you're in much of a position to be accusing someone of that, when you can't provide evidence to back up your own positive assertion.

 

[stranger]

Regardless of how you feel, it might be profitable to take a look at the "Outreach" section, "Questions by Non-Christians" folder. It might provide a preview of the direction the forum might head under option 1.

(I still think there is a place for this type of thing, but not all over the forum.)

Simply LOOK at the number of denominations, sects, subsects,... of christianity ... christians do not have the ONE truth of God promised by Jesus to his followers [Jonh 16:13]

Thus christian sinners have no right to exclude anyone from ths site from asking valid questions of what many call their faith... the 'faiths' of christians are all different [despite attemopts to unify into one very uigly unloving 'creed' which people could not stick to anyway, any more that israel could save their souls by keeping the creedal old covenant]
Thus all beliefs are subject to needing to give account to men and to God, it is integral to the way Jesus showed men of trial of faith by 'fire' to perfect one's love....

Backing into a corner and refusing to talk to anyone who doesn't agree with you already is NOT trial of faith, and so one's love is NOT perfected and one cannot thus expect to be translated to spirit at Jesus' return ... refuse to follow Jesus and he will refuse you too ! :-

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

There is no harm and much good in a social chat side to the forum ,so long as it doesn't pretend to be more than a 'cafe' for casual talk ... and one might well like to redirect those who want serious discussion to another part from those wishing to just idle the hours in chatter...

But there is a serious side to Jesus' talk about love, and it is being igored here in favour of divisive religionism of extremists with an agenda to control what is said...

That is not love, and has nothing to do with what Jesus taught is the way of saints ... thus it is reliionism that is the main non-christ-like aspect of this site, not atheism or those who do not yet believe...

Option 2 is like building a firewall with the problem within already and closing the doors on open discussion of the problem , like closing a wound with infection inside ! ... miles away from what Jesus did in talking with unbelieving sinners and bnot what he taught his followers to do , nor wha Paul taught as apostle TO the UNBELIEVING gentiles !!

 

[Trish1947]

My point is, there's plenty of topics that atheists and Christians can discuss civilly without even getting onto the topic upon which they differ.

My point is..we already have that. And since we do, if you want to bring the topic up of faith, you can do that too.

 

[KomissarSteve]

My point is..we already have that. And since we do, if you want to bring the topic up of faith, you can do that too.

So then you agree that the argument that atheists can't be here for any reason other than to subvert new Christians' faith is bogus?

 

[Lisa0315]

I can with all honesty say that in the 2+ years I have been on Christian Forums, I have spent the majority of my time in GA. Never, not a single time, has an atheist tried to de-convert me. It has also been rare for an atheist to be rude or inflammatory about my beliefs. I have run into far more rude brothers and sisters than I have atheists.

Lisa

 

[Debbie61]

Well... I think we have gone around and around and around...

I hope that we hear from Erwin soon as to what the decision is.

God Bless,

Debbie aka D'Ann

 

[stranger]

Originally Posted by KomissarSteve
My point is, there's plenty of topics that atheists and Christians can discuss civilly without even getting onto the topic upon which they differ.

My point is..we already have that. And since we do, if you want to bring the topic up of faith, you can do that too.

Religionists studiously avoid noticing that all who followed Jesus are saints, wheras those who follow modern religion are sinners ...

The original 'christians' were saints then , and Erwin ahs a point that the site name is wrong because modern religion does not insist on one becoming a saint before being called 'christian'.... the name has ths been perferted by religious changes fromm what Jesus taught and most people who call themselves christian are ndeed not worthy of Christ because they ahve not "overcome the world" and become saints ...

[that is not to say that Jesus did not come to save all sinners, oly that he came to save the few sants first . and the many afterwards inhis kingdom come -Rev 7:3-10]

thus the name is in fact wrong, bur most people abise it anyway and call themselves christians despite not being anything like saints...

it does however make an utter nonsense of sinners trying to shut out others from the site for any reason... the motto is get yourself straight first before trying to pull that mote out of other people's eyes... the plank is in the eyes of chriistian sinners that continue to work iniquity, the mote may be in non-believers' eyes, but is a much smaller problem because at least they did not accept divided beliefs told by sinners who dress up and run churches of other sinners, not saints like Jesus' 'church' of God , he order of Melchisedec...

 

[KomissarSteve]

I can with all honesty say that in the 2+ years I have been on Christian Forums, I have spent the majority of my time in GA. Never, not a single time, has an atheist tried to de-convert me. It has also been rare for an atheist to be rude or inflammatory about my beliefs. I have run into far more rude brothers and sisters than I have atheists.

Lisa

Hooo boy, I couldn't agree with you more. If anyone poses a threat to new Christians' faith, I'd say the number one culprit is other Christians who don't reflect the love of God.