Asking Christians to boycott evolution threads

Numenor · Jan 14, 2006

One other thing, if man were descended from animals, and not from God as the scriptures attest, then Christ would have had to die for sinful animals as well. But this is not the case.

Biological make-up has nothing to do with being made in the image of God. You must understand this before you will make any progress in grasping this topic.

TheInstant · Jan 14, 2006

Since you decided to post your responses in three mega-posts (you sure have a funny way of boycotting something), I'll just respond to the ones made in response to my posts.

ILoveYeshua said:
God's children should believe what God believes.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And you know what God believes how? Through your interpretation of the Bible, right? The thing is, your interpration is different from other Christians' interprations. Do you think this gives you the right to say they are wrong? Maybe you should leave that to God.

The thing is, your interpration really is in the minority. So try as you might, you cannot turn this into a Christian vs. non-Christian debate. Because it is not.

ILoveYeshua said:
its true, some people change their mind, which is in conflict with my points #1 and #2, but i was hoping point #3 would temper points #1 and #2 back into the realm of reality. i still think people should spend less time posting in evolution threads and more time reading them instead, seeing as there are over 400 pages of threads about the subject. overkill people... it aint that interesting.

Some people do seem to find it interesting, even if you do not. Some people also seem to think it is an important debate because of the political movements pushing to change what is taught in schools in this country. So you don't think that's important, fine, don't worry about it. It doesn't change the fact that some people do care about this debate.

Have you happened to stop and think that perhaps your attempt to persuade others to boycott this debate is just as pointless as you think the debate itself is?

ILoveYeshua said:
to lead people away from Christ and the truth it would seem, and away from faith in God, who made man in the image of God, from dust, not evolving us from animals, according to the scriptures, which cannot be broken and should not be doubted.

NO. This is not my agenda, although I'm confused as to how you think you can tell what my motivations are based on a faith(or in this case lack of faith) icon.

The thing is, as far as I can tell it is your motivation to lead people away from Christ. Why? It is because of Creationists' stubborn refusal to accept modern science that is causing quite a few people to doubt the validity of Christianity. That, it seems to me, is the reason why most of the Christian theistic evolutionists in this forum are here. The faith needs to be defended against ignorance. You're not helping.

DJ_Ghost · Jan 14, 2006

ILoveYeshua said:
then that sentence must not have been directed at you then, was it? it must have been directed at those 'some people' who Don't believe in God. its not all about you you you man.

Once again you have miss understood my point. I did not think for a second it was directed at me, I was trying to point out that you had failed to address anything, you just obfuscated with the but some of you dont believe in God.

Let me try and clarify my point for you,
Not of all of us dont disbelieve in God, so instead of ignoring the points the original poster made to moan about non-believers is there any chance you could address some points instead.

Is that any clearer for you?

ILoveYeshua said:
here we go with the heretic stuff again. enough with putting words in my mouth,

I see that point escaped you as well. Okay I shall also try to simplify this one also;-

You make a claim that real Christians dont do X. The Nicene council did do X, hence, weather you actually openly call their actions heretical or not, the argument you are using results in that conclusion, unless you apply an escape clause to the councils actions, some special circumstances that apply to them and no one else.

ILoveYeshua said:
i'm quite capable of making a fool of myself without your help =)

So it would seem, but Im not trying to make a fool of you, I am trying to point to the flaws in your argument.

ILoveYeshua said:
oh, and yes, i absolutely accept the Nicene creed, and the apostles creed. i think there might be some other creed too but i havent read it yet. my faith goes deeper than creeds though.

Good, then you accept that from time to time scripture is amended by theologians.

ILoveYeshua said:
well if Ghandi did not believe that Christ the Lord rose from the dead, then he is in hell, no matter how nice he was. <puts up flame shield>. if he did believe that Christ the Lord rose from the dead, then he is in heaven. it aint for me to decide who goes where. all i can do is bring the gospel to people and hope they choose to be saved by the blood of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

Once again you seem to have elected yourself metatron. Your hubris is shocking.

ILoveYeshua said:
again, its not all about you. look outside yourself and love one another as Christ loves you,

Yet again you have missed the point. When I said,
Well I didnt tell you to be more Christlike,

I was not because I thought it was all about me, but because I was about to posit what I thought the person who did say it may have had in mind. This should have been immediately obvious by reading the next part of hte paragraph
I suspect the person who did was suggesting you treat people more respectfully and you embrace debate rather than trying to force your fellow Christians to avoid it, but he may have had something else in mind.

Anyway, if the point of your thread was to petition Christians not to participate in debates on evolution i think that it is clear you have had your answer, and its no.

Congratulations you managed to get TEs and YECs to agree on something.

Ghost

ILoveYeshua · Jan 14, 2006

> Have you happened to stop and think that perhaps your attempt to persuade others to boycott this debate is just as pointless as you think the debate itself is?

oh i know its pointless, i dont expect you to listen, but i figured it would be polite to respond. as for being a minority, i dont mind that either! it is a narrow gate.

TheInstant · Jan 14, 2006

ILoveYeshua said:
> Have you happened to stop and think that perhaps your attempt to persuade others to boycott this debate is just as pointless as you think the debate itself is?

oh i know its pointless, i dont expect you to listen, but i figured it would be polite to respond. as for being a minority, i dont mind that either! it is a narrow gate.

So you're still asserting that only your interpretation Genesis is correct and all others are wrong. So, the vast majority of Christians won't be going through the "narrow gate" and are doomed to hell? All because they have a different interpretation of Genesis? Have you listened to anything anyone on this thread has said to you at all?

Erock83 · Jan 14, 2006

notto said:
Evolution != atheism.

Ok so what you are telling me is that even though by in large I can agree and support most the ToE. I have some pre-fiat positions that most Evolutionist would argue.

Suddenly means that I dont believe this?

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wow guy I did not know that believing the ToE which was taught to me at a private catholic grade school made me not catholic the things you can learn on CF!!!!! ßnote sarcasm

One Love

TheInstant · Jan 14, 2006

Erock83 said:
Ok so what you are telling me is that even though by in large I can agree and support most the ToE. I have some pre-fiat positions that most Evolutionist would argue.

Suddenly means that I dont believe this?

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wow guy I did not know that believing the ToE which was taught to me at a private catholic grade school made me not catholic the things you can learn on CF!!!!! ßnote sarcasm

One Love

'!=' = 'not equal'

Tomk80 · Jan 14, 2006

!= means unequal.

At least, I guess you were arguing that evolution does not equal atheism, Erock? Because that was what Notto said in his post. You may have misunderstood != to mean equal?

DJ_Ghost · Jan 14, 2006

Erock83 said:
Ok so what you are telling me is that even though by in large I can agree and support most the ToE. I have some pre-fiat positions that most Evolutionist would argue.

Suddenly means that I dont believe this?

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wow guy I did not know that believing the ToE which was taught to me at a private catholic grade school made me not catholic the things you can learn on CF!!!!! ßnote sarcasm

One Love

Whilst I agree 100% with your sentiments, I feel obliged to point out you are aiming at the wrong target. Notto is on your side. != means does not equal. Personally I prefer to use =/= because it seems to cause less confusion than != which looks like a typing error

Anyway, if you retrain your sites on ivedecidedimmetetron over there and fire the same shot, its a very good point youve made.

Ghost

Erock83 · Jan 14, 2006

Tomk80 said:
!= means unequal.

At least, I guess you were arguing that evolution does not equal atheism, Erock? Because that was what Notto said in his post. You may have misunderstood != to mean equal?

Never seen it represented like that more like this ≠

Amazingly enough I can learns something after hearing or reading it once.

One love

Tomk80 · Jan 14, 2006

I believe that, but sometimes people crosspost

chaoschristian · Jan 14, 2006

ILoveYeshua said:
then why do you still post in c/e threads?

Indeed, that is a very good question for you to be asking yourself. Why are you still posting here after so stridently calling for a boycott of such things? Why are you continuing to engage in these debates, or do you count yourself among the Spartans at Thermopylae?

If I were to call for a boycott of Walmart, I certainly would not set up my HQ in the checkout line with a cart full of stuff, such as you virtually have done here.

ILoveYeshua · Jan 14, 2006

TheInstant said:
So you're still asserting that only your interpretation Genesis is correct and all others are wrong. So, the vast majority of Christians won't be going through the "narrow gate" and are doomed to hell? All because they have a different interpretation of Genesis? Have you listened to anything anyone on this thread has said to you at all?

No, not THAT narrow!! =) This narrow:

Romans 10:9-11 That if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.

It just so happens that I believe it when Jesus said the Scripture can't be broken, and others believe that's not the case. Jesus never condemned those with "little faith", but he always impelled them to have greater and greater faith in Him, and in His doctrine.

Matthew 12:18-21 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles. (19) He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. (20) A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. (21) And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

He accepted even those with the tiniest amount of faith, and has saved those who believe in his name. Consider this prophecy from Isaiah about him, and his relation to those with much and little faith:

Isaiah 22:23-25 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. (24) And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. (25) In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

The narrow gate has to do with faith in him, in his name, in who he is, and what he did, in his Lordship and resurrection. And the "burden that was upon" him was the sin of the whole world, which was forgiven through his death on the cross. God is no longer angry at those who believe in Him.

I have literalistic beliefs about Genesis, and others are free to have a figurative interpretation about it. After pursuing the Lord for a long time, I've come to accept the inerrancy of Scripture, and I've been blessed in my life because of it. If others choose to think it can be broken, or don't want to accept certain parts of it, that's their decision and I don't judge them for it whatsoever.

John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

I personally believe that a literalistic interpretation of the Holy Bible is a more pruned state of faith, and I believe it produces more fruit in Christ. But in no way do I condemn those, or call them heretics who, believe in the theory of evolution. Being a son of God through faith in Christ is a growing process, starting with the milk, onto the meat when one is ready.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (3) And this will we do, if God permit.

You've got your basic principles, then stronger meat when one is ready. Coming to accept the 6 day creation story takes strong faith, and is not necessary unto salvation. But the apostles believed it, and so do I, and so should everyone who comes to full blossom in Christ. But all in due time, and Christ will not reject those who call upon his Holy Name.

John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

and

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

The Father told Christ His Son exactly what to say and how to say it, and his sayings are faithful. You say I interpret what he says, I simply listen to him and believe it. Hopefully you will come to believe in Him with complete faith. Until then, God accepts even our small faith in His Son.

Whosoever believes in him will be redeemed.

John 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So yeah, I hope that clears things up for you a little?

ILoveYeshua · Jan 14, 2006

chaoschristian said:
Indeed, that is a very good question for you to be asking yourself. Why are you still posting here after so stridently calling for a boycott of such things? Why are you continuing to engage in these debates, or do you count yourself among the Spartans at Thermopylae?

If I were to call for a boycott of Walmart, I certainly would not set up my HQ in the checkout line with a cart full of stuff, such as you virtually have done here.

I'm only posting til I finish up this discussion with you guys, then you won't be seeing me anymore in this subforum. Like I said before, I don't want to have a "hit n run" thread, I want to cover my reasons fully as you all have asked me to. You may not like my reasons, or you might think I'm a nutter fundie, but at least I've responded to your questions, as I would have wanted you to do for me. But don't worry, I won't be here too much longer in the c/e area. ["and there was much rejoicing" -mp]

re: walmart, sometimes the best way to reach your audience is to go to where the audience is. no point posting this thread in the rec room or the gamers zone forum right? anyway, even if you don't like my answers, you asked! if i didn't answer, you'd accuse me of not answering and trolling, if i do answer, you accuse me of hanging around in an area i want others to boycott. so you see the silliness of your accusations. anyway, i'll be going soon, fear not! =)

ImmortalTechnique · Jan 14, 2006

you should encourage christians to boycott YEC threads since the Bible warns about foolishness and lying

ILoveYeshua · Jan 14, 2006

1 Peter 2:21-23 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: (22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: (23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Matthew 12:36-37 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (37) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

ImmortalTechnique · Jan 14, 2006

so its good to lie about science in order to support a demonstrably false interpretation of scripture?

is that what those bible verses mean?

chaoschristian · Jan 14, 2006

ILoveYeshua said:
anyway, even if you don't like my answers, you asked! if i didn't answer, you'd accuse me of not answering and trolling, if i do answer, you accuse me of hanging around in an area i want others to boycott. so you see the silliness of your accusations. anyway, i'll be going soon, fear not! =)

The only thing I asked you was by authority you were invested to judge that Christians who accepted evolution were not true Christians.

I would have much greater respect for you and your integrity if you had simply post "Folks, my faith doesn't allow me to hang out in the C/E threads, and so I'll be going now." And have that be the end of it.

I can respect that. And I respect that if you feel called by your faith not to participate in these threads to act on that guidance.

What I do not respect is any Christian using their Bible Hammer to smack away at other Christians simply because we don't see eye to eye on points of science and scripture.

I think your reasoning and interpretations are wrong. But I have no doubts about your faith.

TheInstant · Jan 14, 2006

ILoveYeshua said:
No, not THAT narrow!! =) This narrow:

Romans 10:9-11 That if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.

It just so happens that I believe it when Jesus said the Scripture can't be broken, and others believe that's not the case. Jesus never condemned those with "little faith", but he always impelled them to have greater and greater faith in Him, and in His doctrine.

Matthew 12:18-21 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles. (19) He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. (20) A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. (21) And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

He accepted even those with the tiniest amount of faith, and has saved those who believe in his name. Consider this prophecy from Isaiah about him, and his relation to those with much and little faith:

Isaiah 22:23-25 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. (24) And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. (25) In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

The narrow gate has to do with faith in him, in his name, in who he is, and what he did, in his Lordship and resurrection. And the "burden that was upon" him was the sin of the whole world, which was forgiven through his death on the cross. God is no longer angry at those who believe in Him.

I have literalistic beliefs about Genesis, and others are free to have a figurative interpretation about it. After pursuing the Lord for a long time, I've come to accept the inerrancy of Scripture, and I've been blessed in my life because of it. If others choose to think it can be broken, or don't want to accept certain parts of it, that's their decision and I don't judge them for it whatsoever.

John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

I personally believe that a literalistic interpretation of the Holy Bible is a more pruned state of faith, and I believe it produces more fruit in Christ. But in no way do I condemn those, or call them heretics who, believe in the theory of evolution. Being a son of God through faith in Christ is a growing process, starting with the milk, onto the meat when one is ready.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (3) And this will we do, if God permit.

You've got your basic principles, then stronger meat when one is ready. Coming to accept the 6 day creation story takes strong faith, and is not necessary unto salvation. But the apostles believed it, and so do I, and so should everyone who comes to full blossom in Christ. But all in due time, and Christ will not reject those who call upon his Holy Name.

John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

and

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

The Father told Christ His Son exactly what to say and how to say it, and his sayings are faithful. You say I interpret what he says, I simply listen to him and believe it. Hopefully you will come to believe in Him with complete faith. Until then, God accepts even our small faith in His Son.

Whosoever believes in him will be redeemed.

John 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So yeah, I hope that clears things up for you a little?

So do you admit that one can still be Christian and accept the theory of evolution? That's all that I've really been asking you about this whole time.

USincognito · Jan 15, 2006

I have to begrudginly give ILY credit for taking the time to respond to replies, even if they're filled with the same old same old. The continued martyr angle is a trite and tired, but it's some response.

ILY, I'm pressed for time so I scrolled through your parts 1-4 without seeing if you responded to me, but I'll get to them, if you did, within 24 hours.

Asking Christians to boycott evolution threads

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