Asking Christians to boycott evolution threads

[DJ_Ghost]

> Not only do I not accept your argument that the majority of Christian sects are heretical

Huh? I sure didn't say that. Who said that? Y'all got some pretty active imaginations

Then you have not thought your argument through properly. Since your argument hinges on the idea that scriptures are the inerrant and sanctified word of God, and since the Nicene council voted on which scriptures are cannon and which ones are not, then the council did not agree that scripture was the inerrant and direct word of God. Since the majority of modern Christian sects accept the Nicene creed, they also except the councils decision that scripture is not infallible. Since you claim it is infallible, if we accept your view then the Nicene council committed heresy and all sects based upon it are heretical.

If you are going to put a case, you may want to think it through fully first?

Ghost

 

[ILoveYeshua]

Its not (only) me who said that the scriptures could not be broken, it was Jesus. So take it up with him in prayer if you really want to. He isn't going to change his view though, so I suggest you simply change your perspective instead to agree with him, if you know what's best for you.

And while some things in the Bible are figurative, you can't just claim something is figurative as an excuse for doubting it really happened. The flood happened in real life with noah and the ark, sodom was destroyed even as the Bible said, as did the resurrection of God's Messiah Lord Yeshua, as well as Jonah and the whale, the parting of the red sea, the 10 egypt plagues, the 10 commandments, mt. sinai's storms, etc etc...

I think I didn't make it clear that I believe those literally happened because I put them in the paragraph where I said some things are figurative. Those things which are told as a literal story though are not figurative, including the account in Genesis you all disbelieve. Dreams in the bible are typically more figurative for instance, but they still literally had that dream.

As for the "picking which books", God led them to pick which books, according to his eternal will. The books in the Bible now are the ones God meant to be there, or they wouldn't be there now would they? But some of you don't believe God exists, so how could he predestinate the Scriptures to be as they are now if he isn't alive? He's alive, very much so. And unlike you, I'm not calling christians heretics because of the decisions of some council.

And those of you who are asking me to "act more Christlike" (but you don't even believe in Christ) I suppose you weren't referring to these words of Christ:

Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Luke 13:27-28 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 10:14-15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Amen I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.


I suppose you meant some of his "fluffier" verses when you asked me to be more Christlike eh? well know the whole man.

 

[Freodin]

IloveYeshua, you are aware that the Books of the Bible have been revised since the first compilation of a canon? For example, that the Catholic Bibles contain, and always did contain some books that the Protestant Bibles exclude?

So, which books does God want to have in his Bible? Which did he want in 400AD, which in 1600AD, which in 2000AD?

 

[ILoveYeshua]

By the way, Christ did refer to gravity and its effects.

Matthew 4:5-7 Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, (6) And said unto him, "If you are the Son of God, cast yourself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning you: and in their hands they shall bear you up, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone." (7) Jesus said unto him, "It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Which by the way also condemns suicide.

The Bible also refers to the quantum physics of light, though that may be reading a bit into it:
Job 38:24 By what way is the light parted

Also, this thread was addressed to Christians, so why are all you athiests etc bothering with it? And I have no intention of "single-handedly shutting down the C/E board, as Nathan Poe suggests.

If creationists start boycotting evolution threads, could they also boycott trying to change science curriculums around the world?

I sure hope so. If public schools teach religion as bad as they teach the other subjects, its a blessing that it isn't taught in schools. We have churches and ministers for that.

I'm also of the opinion that Christians should stay out of politics, especially the infamous "religious right" which are really just a bunch of legalistic Pharisees trying to push their beliefs on everyone else. I share my beliefs, they try to make them a law for everyone. I don't really care if anyone agrees with me or not, I only desire to agree with Jesus in every way.

You probably aren't surprised that I believe this verse as well:

And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say to you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard-seed, ye shall say to this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

Let us not forget that God also raised Lazarus from the grave. And nowhere has it been mentioned that Lazarus is sinless.

Lazarus had sinlessness imputed unto him through his faith in Christ the Holy One.

 

[Natro]

Lazarus had sinlessness imputed unto him through his faith in Christ the Holy One.

I thought he just had his sins forgivien

 

[ILoveYeshua]

I thought he just had his sins forgivien

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So while Lazarus was still a sinner, he had been washed by Christ's blood and thus was viewed by God as innocent.

And the reason I said that God raised Christ from the dead because he was sinless, is because Yeshua made some very strong claims about being from God, that if they were a lie, God would not have raised him from the dead to confirm those claims. But that resurrection affirmed that He was telling the truth, and was not a liar. They crucified him for blasphemy and lying, but God proved he was not a liar by raising him.

One other thing, if man were descended from animals, and not from God as the scriptures attest, then Christ would have had to die for sinful animals as well. But this is not the case.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

Which also definitively rules out the existence of aliens. Sorry conspiracy theorists...

 

[Phred]

Which also definitively rules out the existence of aliens. Sorry conspiracy theorists...

So should life ever be found on another planet the Bible would be in error?

 

[Tomk80]

Is it just me, or do others also think that there is a high measure of irony in creationists referring to other groups of people as conspiracy theorists?

 

[USincognito]

> P.S. Try acting a little more like Jesus.

last time I checked, Jesus didn't talk about evolution. There were more important things to discuss.

Jesus didn't discuss mortgages or the price of natural gas, does that mean we should ignore those subjects. Ironically for a favorite subject of the religious right - Jesus didn't talk about homosexuality either, yet they seem obsessed with it.

But I'll echo I love Jesus's effort in the OP. If you think your position can't pass analysis, then please, take the intelectually cowardly way out and just ignore the Creation and Evolution debate. Since, in an honest debate, you might find people who disagree with you, they must be avoided.

I'm sure you want to be a martyr for your faith when it comes to being fed to the lions, but confronting the fact that your literalist views of Genesis have no basis in fact I can't understand the fear and avoidance.

 

[Silent Bob]

One other thing, if man were descended from animals, and not from God as the scriptures attest, then Christ would have had to die for sinful animals as well. But this is not the case.

This is something some folks have a problem with. You use animals as a derogatory term which of course is not meant to be one in biology. You whether you like it or not belong to the animal kingdom. How do we know that? You are not a plant and have more than one cells.

Whether you like the fact that you are an animal or not is irrelevant biologically you ARE one. And if Jesus came in the form of a human then Jesus also belonged, for His stay, in the animal kingdom biologically.

We are however sentient which puts us in a special place withing the rest of the life forms. We are still part of the food chain and we are bound by our biology but we unlike every other life form have the ability to question our origin, existance and try to find meaning. The spirit IMO comes from God, the fact that we have eyes comes from our ancestors and the ancestors of the ancestors etc this whole thing was however kick started by God according to His rules that He set up and we discover through science. Is it so hard to understand?

We don't need to be specially created, we don't need to live in the center of the universe we were blessed by God with spirit and that is all the special treatment we need to feel His touch. Everything else is an effort to raise our status above His creation just to make us feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Its not (only) me who said that the scriptures could not be broken, it was Jesus.

We don’t know that, we only have a second hand account that Christ ever said any such thing.

So take it up with him in prayer if you really want to.

You seem to dare to speak for him, I’ll take it up with you, you are the one making the claims that lead to the conclusion that most modern Christian sects are heretical, so you can defend your own argument rather than trying to dodge it.

He isn't going to change his view though, so I suggest you simply change your perspective instead to agree with him, if you know what's best for you.

Do not presume to threaten me in Gods name, I suggest you ask forgiveness from God tonight for doing so.

And while some things in the Bible are figurative, you can't just claim something is figurative as an excuse for doubting it really happened. The flood happened in real life with noah and the ark,

All the physical evidence that God himself left in the world attests against a world wide flood.

As for the "picking which books", God led them to pick which books, according to his eternal will. The books in the Bible now are the ones God meant to be there, or they wouldn't be there now would they?

You really do not know what you are talking about do you? The books in which Bible? Since the books in the Catholic bible the books in the Orthodox bible and the books in the protestant bible are all different, and the votes at the council of Nicea were not unanimous, if God had been guiding the council directly the votes would have been unanimous.

But some of you don't believe God exists,

But I do beleive in God, so stop trying to obfuscate.

so how could he predestinate the Scriptures to be as they are now if he isn't alive? He's alive, very much so. And unlike you, I'm not calling christians heretics because of the decisions of some council.

No you are calling the majority of Christians heretics for not agreeing with you, and what is more it is not “Some council” did you bother to read this sites terms and conditions? Because if you had you would notice that the definition of Christian used here is some one who accepts the creed of that council. So tell me, do you accept the creed or do you not? A simple yes or no will do.

Also I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension, I am not calling you a heretic for not accepting the council of Nicea and its creed, i am directly refuting your belief that the rest of us are heretical for accepting it.

And those of you who are asking me to "act more Christlike" (but you don't even believe in Christ) I suppose you weren't referring to these words of Christ:

Well i don’t usually like to speak for others but I feel compelled to point out that they don’t disbelieve in the existence of a man named Christ (on the whole, although some do), they disbelieve in Christ as the messiah, so do Muslims, Jews and many others. Ghandi for example believed in the existence of Christ, but not that Christ was the messiah. he also pointed out that few Christens act like Christ, his truism holds to this day.

I suppose you meant some of his "fluffier" verses when you asked me to be more Christlike eh? well know the whole man.

Well I didn’t tell you to be more Christlike, I suspect the person who did was suggesting you treat people more respectfully and you embrace debate rather than trying to force your fellow Christians to avoid it, but he may have had something else in mind.

Ghost

 

[ILoveYeshua]

hi again

 

[ILoveYeshua]

You seem to think that all the Christians are on the anti-evolution side and everyone on the pro-evolution side is anti-Christian. What makes you think that?

God's children should believe what God believes.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Not true, for both sides. It's called debate: it sharpens the mind.

I agree, it does. But there comes a point when you're just beating your head against a wall. Like I said, there's 400 pages of posts. Read them if you want, learn, decide.

You mean to the fundalmentalist community, as there as those pesky people called theistic evolutionists.

Do you think Jesus was a fundamentalist? And yes, they are pesky in their doubt of the Word. But that's not my problem, its theirs.

They're here to learn more and more about something, and to help others along the same path. And "they" are against the interpreted account, which is often wrongly called God's account.

"Always learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth." God made everything the way he said he did.

Not for the noobies who just joined. That's a main reason why people still debate, for the lurkers.

lurky them

Now please debate, or this will just be spam.

That reminds me of Monty Python. "I don't like spam!!!"

So, we shouldn't ask any questions at all about anything because God will reveal it all to us eventually? How do you think that car you drive to work was invented, the very computer you're using now to talk? I'm sorry but that's a horrible argument.

Well that's one way to misquote and misinterpret someone. What car or computer or ? will be invented by the further study of evolution hmm? What is the evolution end-game, hundreds of years from now when biologists have exhausted the study of it? What fruit will it produce? I daresay nothing much more than confusion. Though wait, I admit it has helped motivate the study of genetics. But wasn't it a monk who began work in genetics? Pesky theists. =)

*shrug* The creationism VS science debate was resolved decades ago, but that hasn't stopped anyone from continuing it.

it was resolved a couple millenia ago when Christ, the Creator, rose from the dead on the third day.

You can't stop creationists from feeling threatened by the evidence, and it's natural for them to defend their belief by attacking science and its conclusions.
Since creationists are bound to keep doing this, the only ones likely to heed your call are theistic evolutionists. It would be a shame if they did, however, as their presence automatically destroys the #1 creationist argument, that evolution is atheistic.

I'm not threatened by any of evolution's so-called evidence for the origin of man. As for lower creatures, God may or may not have used evolution, no one can say for certain.

And whether anyone heeds my call to stop wasting time debating this topic (that you say has been resolved decades ago) is of no concern to me. Since we both agree that the debate has been resolved about c vs. e, then why do you still post in c/e threads?

These types of threads should be utterly ignored as well as banned.

no, i believe in freedom of speech even if i dont like the speech. no speech should be banned.

An unbelievable amount of arrogance?

Faith in the truth is not arrogance.

But since we're on the topic, how's this for arrogance:

(Matthew 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Matthew 26:64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

(Mark 13:26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

(Mark 14:62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

He's not arrogant because he's correct.

P.S. Try acting a little more like Jesus.

an agnostic telling me to act like Jesus? You don't even believe in Jesus! but anyway i'll try.

After years now of dealing with Fundie Creationists, I believe it.

ooh more name calling, that'll bolster your argument. gotta love that word Fundie.

and you'd think after that many years you'd be tired of it?

Wouldn't this same argument, if followed to it's logical conclusion, kind of mean simply banning non-Christians from this website altogether?

nope. nice try tho

After two years of this with literally thousands of posts, three formal debates and two Quiet Thread submissions, I think I'll take your advice. Very little science is needed for the antitheistic satire of these debates to flourish. I am finishing up a thread on the meaning of the word science and the topic was trampled to death on the first page. I was hoping to focus on etymology, epistomology and the history of science. Instead I got the same tired old rationalizations and satire that went on for 35 pages.

Grace and peace,
Mark

well, you tried. and i appreciate that. but these ones have hardened their hearts against the Lord, and have no interest in his eternal paradise.

buddy you dont have to mock christains, because they dont agree with you, by saying try acting a littile more like Jesus.

eh i dont mind. God will judge those who hate him when He's ready.

re: #1
Probably not. Including the CHRISTIANS who are pro- evolution who post here. In fact several polls have been conducted at this forum, and it truns out that evolutionis christians out number young earth creationist christians by a wide margin. Do a search if you don't believe me.

I can't help it if they don't believe the Word.

THe only reason people oppose evolution is because of fear and ignorance. I for one do not long for the good old days of the dark ages.

I've studied evolution and it has gaping holes in it, so my reasons are neither out of fear, nor ignorance, but reason and common sense. If your faith in evolution fills in those holes for you, so be it. I just can't buy into that garbage tho.

I only hope to dispell igorance.

I'm sure you do, by your definition of the word ignorance. I too hope to dispel ignorance, by my definition of the word ignorance. May the best definition win =)

I think young earth creationists do a dis-service to both christianity and to the well being of man-kind.

source? =)

jk. the six day creation theory put forth in genesis is a testament to the power of God to do that which should have taken billions of years in less than a week. you do not know how powerful God is. and he has given all that power to his son Yeshua of Nazareth, His only-begotten Son.

re: #5
If you really believe that then you have issues man. If not, then you are not exactly being honest. As I said before, most christians are evolutionists.

well first off, everyone has issues, me included. secondly, i'm being as honest as i know how. third, you don't know most christians, so its impossible for you to determine if most of them are evolutionists or not.

If you don't like the debate, by all means - don't participate.

i participated for a while, but then i realized no one was listening. thus my request for the boycott.

Oh by the way, there is a creationist forum in the Christian's only section. It's a theology sub-forum and moderated by a young earth creationist, yours truely. If you are interested in learning YEC without all of the drama and debate come check it out some time.

well God bless america. =) anyway

So, you don't feel like debating your assertions? Then please retract them, it's the Christian thing to do.

hope this reply makes you happy, there won't be many more like this one. but i didnt want to "hit n run" i believe the expression goes.

But, some people think that if they go around talking about Jesus they don't have to try acting like Him (or listening to what He said)

With Jesus, he wanted people to do as he said and do as he did. But most importantly he wanted people to believe in him 100% and follow him. Different measures of grace are given to different people though, some can walk the walk better than others, and some are given no grace, destined unto eternal shame and destruction. C'est la vie. Repent.

Where in the world are you getting some of this stuff? Wow!

yes wowie zowie. whats your point, you think i'm crazy? i dont care.

Until then, let's just get cozy with ignorance.

ooo poke poke, why dont you act a little more like Jesus?

[bible]romans 1:1-3[/bible]

I think that the replies to this thread make the case that you may have been wrong in some of your assertions. Would you like to respond to some of the replies? Like maybe the first one?

its true, some people change their mind, which is in conflict with my points #1 and #2, but i was hoping point #3 would temper points #1 and #2 back into the realm of reality. i still think people should spend less time posting in evolution threads and more time reading them instead, seeing as there are over 400 pages of threads about the subject. overkill people... it aint that interesting.

If you were hoping to focus on etymology, epistomology, and the history of science, why did your second post in the thread (only the 6th post overall) state Now for the point of this thread, can we know God? Thats it. Thanks for your participation.

Why didn't you just make your hopes for the thread clear in the OP instead of having start with the following antagonistic line:
As usuall I am confronted with over zealous apologists for science who have no clue what the term means

From your first and second post in that thread, it would be hard to discern your hope for it and see it as an honest attempt by you to want to focus on etymology, epistomology, and the history of science. All I see is an accusation in the first post and some strange shift of purpose in your second post.

I appreciate that God has chosen the simple to be recipients of his grace and hidden it from the wise and prudent, but still I wish creationists could make more sense with their arguments, myself included. But alas, we are simple folk.

And that's a fine stance. Now please retract your posts if you're unwilling to defend them. Or wait, it's better to leave them as an example of how people new posters should not act.


So, you don't feel like debating your assertions? Then please retract them, it's the Christian thing to do.

hope this post helps you feel better. and what do you know about the christian thing to do? you don't seem very loving, telling me to retract my posts and saying people shouldnt act like me. very edifying...

reason 9)
knowledge puffs up, love builds up.

So, you're a troll? That's in violation of forum rules, so please don't.

You should debate or don't post at all, I say that the nicest way possible.

...and they accused him of many things

And here you are, deep in the belly of discussions about evolution. I don't know if it's a control issue or what, but these discussions have been taking place years before you showed up a month ago, and will continue long after you're gone.

If you are so opposed to people discussing this topic, why are you here doing it yourself?

you're right! obviously i must be a hypocrite. please forgive me. yet one cannot say "be quiet" without speaking, can one? so really that doesn't make one a hypocrite does it?

You know what? Let's just have creationists boycott debate, science and politics in general. Then we'd all be better off.

lol, we probably would.

Umm, what's my agenda, exactly? Please let me know, because I wasn't aware I had one.

to lead people away from Christ and the truth it would seem, and away from faith in God, who made man in the image of God, from dust, not evolving us from animals, according to the scriptures, which cannot be broken and should not be doubted.

Maybe it's better to stop feeding the trolls.

again with the baseless accusations...

But I wanna call for more boycotts!

me too! talk about stirring the pot... never thought it'd get this kinda reaction.

come on guys come down. I dont think he meant to hurt anyones feelings here. He was just saying it is getting pointless on making the threads about evolution sense no one is going to change there minds about it.

thanks timmothy. and it is pointless and vain.

[bible]ecc 1:2[/bible]

You may be right, he's clearly not here to discuss what he's posted.

It is, however, frustrating that you don't want to discuss the valid points that were made in response to your OP.

happy now? =) but like i said you feed on the controversy. is my post yummy to you? savor the taste, there wont be many more. feel free to clap about that too, i dont care =)

I don't think he's hurt anyone's feelings. What he has done is perpetuate the falsehood that this is a Christian vs. Atheist debate. It's one thing to not participate because you think it's pointless. It's quite another thing to dirty the waters.

i merely speak what i believe, and you speak what you believe. i believe it is a big waste of time, and you can also be sure i wont be wasting much more time in this subforum or on this thread. i dont think i'm dirtying any waters though, any more than you are. see romans 2, dont judge me. i dont judge you, and if i have, i retract that judgement.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

The unwillingness to discuss your arguments can easily be put under "trolling". It's an observation, did I say you're smelly and stupid?

Oops, betrayed my own motto "Don't feel the trolls".

well i guess i'm not trolling then. are you going to apologize? i doubt it.

If you won't debate with us, and in fact are advocating ognoring us by people who share your worldview, what could possibly make you say that?

i'm advocating more listening, less yammering. i also advocate that anti-evolution christians stop banging their heads against a wall in trying to "convert" you when you have obviously hardened your heart against God's word. its win win really.

One should not stop posting because everything has been gone over before. Ignorance must be confronted head on, not left to chance as to whther lurkers bother to look everything up.

there's no such thing as chance, only God's will. but that's another post altogether.

it is suggested somewhere in the NT that after two admonitions against a heretic that you should just give up on it, cuz they aint gonna change their mind. that's what the OP is suggesting, though not everyone who believes evolution is a heretic, my point is that christians' time could be better used in other subforums. y'all pro-evolutionists can spend all day every day here for all i care. =)

QFT!

GFO!

Well, I see you are not going to respond to me. Thanks. Goodnight.

me me me, is that all you care about? <insert obligatory retort that i too am selfish> i agree, i am selfish, i admit it. next?

I have to disagree strongly with you. Some creationists have changed their minds because of debates in this forum, and some who had a minimal understanding of the ToE have had it explained and taught to them by some very patient and educated people (some of them christians). So for him to ask christians to eschew the debate is simply ridiculous and highly arrogant.

oh i know they have, nothing i can do about that. i really dont think its arrogant tho, but i might be wrong. are you ever wrong? Lord knows I am wrong quite often. the TOE has lots of holes though with no suitable filler in my opinion.

P.S. I agree with the other posters, he should try to act christ-like.

right back at you! btw that's a capital C. but you'll discover that one day, hopefully the easy way.

Why should the job of fighting ignorance be left only to non-Christians ? I think Christians can do the job at least as well as we can.

well, we try. if only y'all would listen!

(hears echo coming back from you)

i know. guess we'll have to agree to disagree!

Fighting ignorance should be everyone's job.

I totally agree. but ignorance about evolution is the LEAST of mankind's problems.

I just attended my friends Youth Group. He goes to the most fundamentalist church I have ever seen. The moment I got back I watched Inherit The Wind and felt better.

were they all moanin and swaying and stuff? boy that gets annoying. just cuz you're a christian doesnt mean ya gotta act like a moron in public. but oh well. i'm pretty chill, even if you do call me a fundie. i'm not one of those fundies that goes screamin JESUS in your ear, i'm pretty chill. If you dont wanna hear it, i dont care. I know that certain people are blind and there's nothing that can be done about it, so it doesnt get under my skin. Thus my call for a boycott by christians. just let y'all argue it amongst yourselves, and we sons of God can save our time for better pursuits, like "fellowship with the willing" as i said.

Not unless evolution can be falsified.

the evolution of man must be proven true, not false. the TOE is missing a lot of links, and sense.

Untrue, we have seen many former YECs on these very forums accept teh evience for evolution.

roxor dude

None of which they would see if they followed your dictum to boycott the threads.

he's catching on! =) just protecting my brothers from the lies of the TOE regarding the origin of man. as for lower animals, i dont care what people believe.

Don’t presume to think you speak for the Christian community, most of us accept evolution, as do most of the major Christian sects.

right or wrong, its still a waste of time. what is the fruit of the endless debate about evolution? confusion, upset feelings, feelings of pride, vanity... but we're not going to get the next car or computer or ? out of it.

It is not Gods account, it is mans account. The bible is inspired by God not dictate by him. The Nicene council established this fact when it split scripture into cannon and apocrypha and I seem to recall that to call ourselves Christians on CF we have to accept the Nicene councils creed.

Genesis is God's account. we will have to agree to disagree there. and i've read some of the apocrypha, most of it sucks. the nicene council picked the canon well.

Evolution does not equal atheism.

but claiming man descended from animals does equal disbelief in God's account of creation, which many would argue equals disbelief in God.

> we all should do that (listen)

Most of us have, you apparently have not or else you wouldn't have made the obvious mistakes that you did in the OP.

Why can't Christian evolutionist stay?

obvious mistakes? well we all make mistakes. sorry!

Is there hair between God's knuckles? Are there wiskers on God's chin?

how is this relevant to anything? anyway

Perhpas you have a different interpretation of what 'in the image of' means than other Christians. For you to definitively claim that Christians cannot disagree with you otherwise they are not Christians is a poor argument. We are not disagreeing with Jesus, we are disagreeing with YOUR interpretation of the words of Jesus.

i dont think so. God is able to safeguard the accuracy of his scriptures, or else he is dead.

I love those of the literalist cloth.

i love you too! =)

You will help bring the demise of religion faster than any atheist ever could.

I hope so, I don't like religion. I like my Master Yeshua of Nazareth. He is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through the Son.

As long as you maintain the false dichotomy of evolution and religion then the demise of religion will be as certain as the earth revolves around the sun.

you can tell me all about it when i'm rejoicing in heaven with my Lord and Savior, if you are able to speak at that time.

>> Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

> If you can't get past v.1, you're not a christian.

Wow, so you get to choose who's Christian and who's not.

The Bible defines what it means to be a christian. if you don't believe the Bible, how can you call yourself a christian? and if you don't believe the very first line in the bible, how can you claim to believe in God? its not about whether or not I say who gets to be a christian or who doesn't.

It only makes sense that if you are a christian, then you believe the Bible as truth. (and the contrapositive) If you do not believe the Bible, then you are not a christian. The Bible testifies about God's Son, Christ. So how can you believe in Christ if you don't believe the Bible?

Of course that doesn't say what means God use to create heaven and earth now does it?

God spoke, it happened. poof.

"Real Christians" of course, being the ones that agree with you. Nobody else counts.

"Real Christians" of course, being the ones that agree with CHRIST our LORD. There you go with the accusations again.

You know, as an Atheist, I have no reason to care about this, and should be applauding such arrogance.

<clap clap clap> ooh and a capital Athiest. so you believe you have a monkey for an uncle?

As AnEmpiralAgnostic pointed out, you're doing more to sabotage religion than any Atheist would ever want to.

good, I never liked religion. I like Yeshua.

But even I can't help but find such arrogance to be offensive.

of course you can't help it, you are offended at Christ the Lord too! nothing i can do about that...

And if you can offend the people you're helping, how do you think "real Christians" are reacting?

real christians are probably forgiving me and praying for me. why don't you?

I always thought a christian is someone who accepts Christ as their savior?

it goes a liiiiiitle deeper than that. you also have to believe he never lied. and theres more too. but you're not here to become a christian are you? i hope you are, but i dont think you are.

I never realized it had anything to do with taking a literal interpretation of Genesis. Maybe you should notify the mods about what a christian should be. I'm sure they'd enjoy hearing from you.

cute. i'll get right on that they can define christian however they want to! as for me, I fully affirm the Nicene creed and i like that as a definition of christian. but believing those things in the creed also implies belief in other things as a necessary logical conclusion.

Probably true, but what about the countless many who troll here or the few who actually do seek. Would you say they're lost causes? Of course not!

whether christians waste their time in c/e or not, no one will be able to pluck the elect out of the Father's hand. its not like there's any shortage of threads to read if they really wanted to.

That's the interesting other side. This isn't entirely true, I know of a good Christian brother who as a result of coming here became an evolutionist. I think if one's beliefs aren't strong and well grounded then yes you shouldn't be coming here.

like i said, i'm just asking, not demanding a boycott. ultimately people with their free will are going to do whatever they want! and i rejoice in that fact. i do wish they would choose to do as Christ the Lord wants though.

But if the other side isn't posted within those threads; how will they ever know it?

but it already is posted. a stand has been made. and plus, God will find a way to let them know it, like, uh, the Bible? yep. and uh, the Holy Spirit? yep. i'm not worried.

"And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

yep he did! so where is evolution in the gospel? like paul said, he determined only to know Christ crucified among them. he viewed everything else as dung. i paraphrase slightly though, forgive me.

"but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you"

and arguing over genetics etc defends the gospel how? plus, dont you think that has already been done by many?

Yes that's true, and that's why I try to not argue from man's perspective, but God's. It isn't always easy! So yes if one uses worldly means and ideas to argue then we'll just feed the controversy, but if we rely on the Holy Spirit and God's Word we'll be far more successful.

and if you keep arguing our side, i really dont mind. good luck! just be careful to not cast your pearls before swine at the same time.

You forgot to add gravity to your boycott list.

irrelavent, rude, and unnecessary.

Then I guess that the last two Popes the general synod of the church of England and tens of thousands of Christians across the world are not true christians becase your interpretation if infalible.

you say it. evolution is the least of the church of england's and roman catholic church's problems though, doncha think? i dont remember Christ banning birth control for married couples, but popes have, right? and didnt the church of england start when henry the 8th couldnt get a divorce? anyway, thats irrelavent to this discussion/debate/whatever this is. i dont judge them, but i dont agree with some of their doctrine either.

i would guess more than tens of thousands of christians... most catholics, for instance, should accept evolution since the last two popes did... which should be almost a billion right there... certainly some don't, but several hundred million certainly do

well lets all do what the popes do then. have you seen their track record? not too pretty. but thats not the issue here either. the issue is not doubting the scriptural account of creation.

You are of course quite correct, that should have read tens of millions and not tens of thousands. Anyway, apparently none of us a real Christians, because ILoveYesua has obviously elected himself metatron and decreed it.

lol yea obviously. =) i've never heard the word metatron before! what's that? i simply believe what i read in the Bible, and think everyone else should too. that's my right. but you can believe whatever ya want! thats your right too! i love living in a free country. i hope the religious right allows it to stay free.

I question that "IloveYeshua" has the personal or academic skills or stature to claim that these thousands of men and women are not Christian. The "IloveYeshua" person quite obviously is poorly informed about the sciences as well as Christian theology and the Torah.

so i lack personal skills AND academic skills? and stature? oh i'm so hurt. =) my poor wittle bwain. if only i was as smart as you.

This thread does a great job of displaying the creationists' last defense mechanism: if all else fails, ignore what you don't agree with.

when you have the Truth (= Jesus), its easy to spot lies and ignore them. All truth flows from him.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

Don't the Jewish people have Genesis or a version thereof in their Torah?

Also isn't the Gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) the only real thing that makes you 'Christ'ian?

This logic is so unstable.

Christianity is a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, so no. Christ attested to the accuracy of the Law and the Prophets.

Isn't that the very first thing they do?

My mind works in conjunction with my spirit, led by the Holy Spirit, to determine the truth of the matter. Whether ignoring lies is the first or last defense mechanism is irrelavent. I don't have a monkey for an uncle.

Rather than attacking every one else here would you address some of the criticisms levelled at your argument by Christians?

here ya go! ^^^^^^^ (and below). yum.

Judge not...

Talk about distasteful. Standing against ignorance isn't anti-christian. It's anti-ignorance. But hey, if the shoes fit...

Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Very few of the people who responded here are set up against the christian religion. Sure, they aren't christians, but they also aren't trying to pull people away from christianity.

like i said earlier, those who do not gather people into Christ scatter. but you blew that comment off.

Most people here, however, are against ignorant or bigoted statements, as expressed by some people on this very same thread.

oh really? how can they be against them when they make them?

Saying that some christians are not christians without any clear justification fall amongst such statements.

yer probably right. guess i'm a sinner. sorry!

You were attacked, not because you are christian, but because some of your statements were incorrect and offensive.

well this IS a debate forum right? still don't attack me, attack the statements. or don't attack at all: love! if thats possible. or perhaps i'm just too stupid to match the magnificence of your intellectual might. thats entirely possible!

I am pretty sure that "ILoveYeshua" didn't botther to read the statement affirmed by over ten thousand Christian clergy supporting evolutionary theory and Christian faith together. In his cramped narrow view they are not Christian anyway.

ooo i have a cramped narrow view. awesome! and here i thought i had carefully considered all the evidence and made an educated choice. silly me and my poor wittle bwain.

So, skip him.

Whatsoever you would have men do unto you, do ye also unto them.

But I did have an idea. It might help matters if people would restrain themselves from posting quick "one-liners" about evolution. (I am guilty, but I'll try to do better).

i agree completely. one-liners suck.

uh oh, that was a one liner! ahhhhhh i'm trapped in the conundrum of my own statement!

anyway, just feeling a little goofy there, its been a long post.

What if every question was treated in as much detail as possible? Approach even the most lamebrained PRATT seriously and present a thoroughly documented refutation. Plenty of cut'n'paste can be used with proper citation- that is why I wrote those things, and this is true for most TalkOrigins contributers.

ooo am i a lamebrained pratt now? wow. thats ever so loving of you to say. at least you weren't the one to tell me to act more christlike.

If there are some responces ahead of you, that is fine. We could try to find some detail or nuance that has not been covered. Plus, we should cite and reference everything to the extent possible. That way everyone can see directly where there is additional supporting information.

and then - world peace will arrive.

There is no need to post hundreds of minor quibbles and chatterings.

i agree! thus my call for a boycott.

Take the creationist's position and obliterate it.

The Creator has the position of a creationist, so I guess you won't mind when he obliterates unbelievers? but right, you dont think there is a creator. it all just accidently popped into existence. how lucky! boy are you gonna be surprised when Christ returns.

You're absolutely right, of course.

yep all hail dr. gh! =)

It's just a matter of will, and of patience - and there are those around that exhibit those in abundance.

and unbelief, you forgot that.

I must say it's often difficult to resist the temptation to respond to a creationist's silver bullet without a quick (but uninformative) smackdown.

its a lot easier to resist temptation when you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you. wouldn't you like that?

You are in violation of the rules of this forum. Many christians accept evolution. By saying "real christians" you are strongly implying that anyone who accepts evolution is not really a christian.

I have reported this to the moderators.

i'm gonna tell yer mommy! its ok, i retract the word "real". happy?

Great, now your friend is an enlightened good Christian brother. I congradulate him for embracing the 21st century.

now he's ready for the chip in his brain! jk

I ask you to answer this: by what authority were you invested with the power to judge who is and who is not a real Christian? And by what authority were you invested with the power to determine how the Bible is to be interpreted and that your preferred interpretation is the only basis by which to determine scriptural truth?

Take your Bible Hammer back to your theological playroom where nobody else can get hurt by your acrimonious self-righteousness tantrums.

acrimonious - niiiiice. did you use a thesaurus to find that one? I simply believe what the Lord Yeshua Christ said and all the implications that flow from his truth. I'm not judging anyone, nor creating new doctrine. "Believe what the Bible says" shouldn't be foreign doctrine to you as a christian.

This thread still going?

I too am shocked... so I figured i'd post a nice big response. enjoy!

I'm gonna have to say "no". I'm frankly rather disappointed with the way you've responded to Christians and non-Christians alike. You have, with a wave of your hand, labeled all attacks on your OP as "anti-Christian", which is patently not true. Your OP was attacked because, quite frankly, it sucks. It's a cop-out and exactly the sort of attitude that created this sort of rampant ignorance in the first place.

yea it sucks. oh well. it did stimulate some debate though, and you like debate right?

The difference, ILoveYeshua, between evolutionary theory proponents and creationists is that many creationists won't change their mind no matter what evidence is presented to them (they in fact admit to this!). Evolutionary theory proponents, on the other hand, won't make up their minds until they've been convinced of a position's validity into the ground.

so one is based in doubt and one in faith. mmkay.

*wastes a bunch of time looking thru thread at peoples icons*

36 respondants
- a little over half atheist / agnostic (presumably all accept evolution)
- 3 other beliefs (also presumably all accept evolution), and
- 14 Christian, of those 10 accept evolution (counting self)

So, most of the Christians who have responded to this thread accept evolution as the means by which diversity of life was created. Unless we're not real Christians.

I love diversity, it sure makes things interesting, doesn't it?

Christians who accept evolution as the source of the origin of man should reconsider that stance because Christ affirmed the truth of the Law and the Prophets which stated that God created man in his own image and likeness from the dust. But disbelieving evolution is not a prerequisite to salvation. It would just be nice if christians believed what they read in the Bible.

I get more meaningful discussion from my magic eight ball.

must be cuz of my poor wittle bwain. sorry! next time i'll consult a thesaurus.

"Not being able to be broken" is not the same as "literally true."

in your opinion.

Ok, I really don't think that any of the Christians here doubt Christ. Yet they still accept evolution.

nutin i can do about that. evolution as the origin of man is a fraud in my opinion. but we all have a right to our opinions!

You think all of these things are to be taken figuratively? So where's the problem? "Not to be doubted" is not the same as "must be taken as literal history."

most of the Bible should be taken literally. just because we don't like a verse doesn't mean we can just declare it figurative and walk away. Lot's wife really did turn into an actual pillar of salt. Do you believe that or was that just "figurative" in your opinion? Why not just say she melted or died, why a pillar of salt? Anyway

Where did Christ say anything about man not descending from animals? Why does "in the image" of God have to be physical?

The geneaology of Christ affirms that man's origins begin with God, not animals. Image is physical, likeness is spiritual.

Christ didn't mention bacteria either. I suppose you shouldn't care about disease or believe it exists?

And he didn't mention computers. yet here i am using one. <head explodes> i'm ok, i'm ok... =) he healed disease in case you don't remember, so bacteria were irrelavent to him. in healing people, was he slaughtering millions of bacteria? in blaming craziness on demon-possession, was he discounting psychological theories? no, he simply understood the root spiritual cause of these problems. Anyone who believes can be healed by him of any condition, even if they are missing an arm or a leg, even if they are dead, Christ can raise them. Was he insane when he said that the dead girl was only sleeping? They all mocked him for that, until he "woke her up". or is that just another thing we're supposed to take figuratively?

Nice try but being made in the image of God has nothing to do with our biological makeup, so being biologically descended from animals is absolutely irrelevant.

nice try but no banana huh. then what do you think image of God means?

I think he meant irrelevant to your argument.

probably. oh well

You have to spell every little thing out with some people.

B-e-l-i-e-v-e! Christ is risen!

It is not irrelevant at all, for as long as people continue to pedal the notion that one must believe the bible is literal physical truth and not spiritual or allegorical, and as long as they use this to deny evolution and Christianity is possible some people will believe this fallacy. As evolution can be demonstrated empirically and faith can not, then people who believe the fallacy and accept the empirical evidence will be forced to conclude that there is no God.

portions of evolutionary theory have been demonstrated empirically, but the changes which take place in a person's life after they accept Christ also can be demonstrated emprically.

In this way creationism turns tens of thousands from Christ. I’ve often heard creationists claim evolution is the work of the devil, but it is not evolution but the steadfast refusal to accept genesis as allegorical that turns people from Christ.

Right, creationism turns people away from the Creator. uh huh. maybe you are wrong about that?

Once again I remind you, you are not Metatron, you do not get to decide what is and what is not relevant for Christians to discuss. Besides which, if you read the post in context, he meant that being biologically related to animals is irrelevant to salvation and your argument, not irrelevant in a blanket manner.

there's that word again! cute word. maybe i'll go look it up. =) God I enjoy the internet, its so resourceful.

Even if it was, pokemon is irrelevant but if people want to talk about they have every right to do so.

yep! they sure do =) and i have a right to ask people to boycott, and they have the right to ignore me or not! aint free will great?

Do you realize there was a time when all the greatest Western scientists were Christians who believed that God wanted them to fully understand their surroundings?

that's false. not "all". some scientists are sons of God through faith in Christ, some reject Christ and his salvation. But God does want us to explore and undertand our surroundings nonetheless.

You, conversely, express no curiosity whatsoever. In fact, you're suspicious of those Christians who do have an interest in science, as though curiosity is some sort of character flaw that negates their Christian beliefs.

You don't know me. I've explored it in great detail. my high school even voted me 'most likely to be a scientist'. really.

(oh where did it all go wrong, eh?)

once you explore science far enough, you know that there has to be a God. and once you get to know Christ, you realize that HE is the one that everyone should worship. has there ever been a man so loving as Yeshua of Nazareth? nope. Buddha shirked suffering, considered it something to be avoided. Christ jumped right into suffering, embraced it with both arms (and feet). He's the Lord, like it or not.

Here's an idea. Rather than spend your time telling theistic evolutionists why they aren't really Christians, why not ask them how they reconcile scientific findings with their faith? I bet you'll get some good responses.

I can read older posts. I don't need to ask, there's about 400 pages of threads, with tens and hundreds of posts each. Plenty to consider.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

The scriptures came from God but they HAVE been written by man, edited, translated, re-edited, re-translated and finally voted into or out of canon BY MEN.

yet still not broken.

Some of those edits and translations where not around when Jesus was around. So we don't know in what exact form the scriptures where when Jesus was talking about them.

but we know what form they are in now, and we know they cannot be broken, so we know they are still ok despite all that editing yada yada. having looked at some of the apocrypha, i wasn't impressed. the council made the right decision in picking the canon.

Furthermore you need to take everything into context. If Jesus talks about Adam and Eve then it is at all possible that He was referring to the common belief of His time.

sorry, can't buy that. but you are welcome to!

He could be referring to this literally or not. However IF He really believed in Adam and Eve and we have completely disproved such a belief then there is no point to being a Christian as Jesus was obviously wrong. I believe otherwise but you can feel free to believe anything.

he made adam and eve, so of course he believed in adam and eve. and yes, we can believe whatever we want. but there is a right belief: God's belief, as described in God's book that God wrote (through people that he inspired).

funny about all those fulfilled prophecies though...

He didn't have to lie. He could be referring to a common belief that His listeners held. It is at all possible that He spoke against that belief or He didn't knowing that the belief would be proven wrong. Think of it as an adult saying that Santa brought the kid his presents, it is not a lie. It is just a story. It could be the only story primitive minds where ready to listen to.

so adam and eve is like santa claus or the tooth fairy to you? or maybe you're saying Jesus was trying to trick us into believing something that wasn't true because it was easier for people to swallow? doesn't seem like his style. he told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, even if it got him crucified, because he IS the truth.

The messenger uses his own interpretations, context and ideas. Therefore the messenger is not really a messenger.

sigh, then why even bother reading the Bible at all if its just a bunch of out-of-context interpreted figurative baloney thats been edited and mangled throughout the years?

We have no qualms with Christ. We do have problems with what your interpretation of the Bible says. To us it says otherwise. In fact the "do not bear false witness" commandment applies DIRECTLY to creationism and those who weave the web of lies associated with the sale of books and DVDs.

huh? sorry, ya lost me there. it sucks that people try to make profit off God's Word, but that's no reason to disbelieve the Word itself, or interpret it in a purely figurative way.

It also applies dirrectly to TEs who have seen the evidence and have the intellectual honesty to take the hardest path of them all. To re conciliate their faith with the truth and not act like an ostrich.

sorry, too many holes in the ToE for me to buy it as the origin of man. maybe in a few hundred years... til then, i'll believe the creationist account of events.

Then why don't you understand that Genesis is to be taken figuratively along with the flood and adam and eve and Sodom and Gomorrah and maybe a few more like Job?

it is all to be taken literally. sorry you disagree. i think one of my earlier posts about figurative/literal might have confused you... sorry bout that.

Oh no all you do is interpret them as you wish that way the scriptures can say anything you want.

To interpret them as they are written is the simplest and most effective way to read the Bible. Its when you start saying its all figurative that you are interpreting it any way you want.

If you disbelieve the Creation itself what does that make you?

you don't believe you exist? how do you spose anything came into existence? one big cosmic accident? silliness.

Through the process of evolution.

saith silent bob. when the blind lead the blind they both fall into a pit.

(...) book of the wars of the Lord(...)

I guess Moses just kept the good parts. who knows? i sure don't. do you? nope. then we can only guess what it was.

The average post/view ratio is double of this thread. Chances are, it's not interesting. But I thought I would help out and bump it again for ya.

"for ya"? shrugs. read it or not, i dont care. i addressed it to christians.

Then you have not thought your argument through properly.

or maybe you're just putting words into my mouth? seems more likely.

Since your argument hinges on the idea that scriptures are the inerrant and sanctified word of God

my life hinges upon that fact.

and since the Nicene council voted on which scriptures are cannon and which ones are not

and they did a very good job picking them.

then the council did not agree that scripture was the inerrant and direct word of God.

is that what you think? they carefully examined the texts available and chose which were good teaching and which were false teaching. i accept their findings, and use the Bible canon they picked.

Since the majority of modern Christian sects accept the Nicene creed, they also except the councils decision that scripture is not infallible.

bzzzzz wrong. Jesus said the scripture cannot be broken, and I believe him. Sorry you don't! but hopefully you'll come around.

Since you claim it is infallible, if we accept your view then the Nicene council committed heresy and all sects based upon it are heretical.

talk about stretching logic, you leaped over a few intermediary conclusions there. if you want to think they're heretical, you think that. i don't.

If you are going to put a case, you may want to think it through fully first?

same to you! =)

IloveYeshua, you are aware that the Books of the Bible have been revised since the first compilation of a canon? For example, that the Catholic Bibles contain, and always did contain some books that the Protestant Bibles exclude?

So, which books does God want to have in his Bible? Which did he want in 400AD, which in 1600AD, which in 2000AD?

<head explodes again> woops, there goes my faith. not. wait, i have 2 heads? kinda like ol' Zaphod Beeblebrox. ah douglas adams, we miss you.

i've looked into this differing bible question, and it doesn't bother me one iota. the gospel itself has remained unchanged. Christ was crucified, died, and resurrected, and all who repent and believe in Him will be saved. are there christians who believe evolution who will be saved? absolutely. and are there christians who reject evolution who will be saved? absolutely. i just think talking about evolution is a total waste of time and resources for christians, its just vanity.

So should life ever be found on another planet the Bible would be in error?

well, Christ came as a man, right? God picked man as the highest life form in the visible world, and gave him dominion over all other life forms. should real aliens show up in space ships, that would put a serious damper on the accuracy of the Bible now wouldn't it? you bet it would. but i'll bet my life there are no aliens. God made life on Earth. the nearest star is how many light years away? even if you did think there were aliens on other planets in other solar systems, they'd never reach us, so they are irrelavent. star trek is a pipe dream.

Is it just me, or do others also think that there is a high measure of irony in creationists referring to other groups of people as conspiracy theorists?

<chuckle> irony rocks

Jesus didn't discuss mortgages or the price of natural gas, does that mean we should ignore those subjects. Ironically for a favorite subject of the religious right - Jesus didn't talk about homosexuality either, yet they seem obsessed with it.

sure he did. did you miss this part?

Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


So if you believe in his idea of marriage as the right idea of marriage, then that rules out homosexuality as the right idea of marriage. Maybe homosexuality was too base for him to even mention, seeing as it is an abomination to the Lord. Christ affirmed the Law and the Prophets, and also sent the apostles, who all spoke against homosexuality and in favor of normal marriage.

But I'll echo I love Jesus's effort in the OP. If you think your position can't pass analysis, then please, take the intelectually cowardly way out and just ignore the Creation and Evolution debate. Since, in an honest debate, you might find people who disagree with you, they must be avoided.

hehe. so faith is intellectual cowardice now? what will they think of next

I'm sure you want to be a martyr for your faith when it comes to being fed to the lions, but confronting the fact that your literalist views of Genesis have no basis in fact I can't understand the fear and avoidance.

thats ok, i cant expect you to understand. but in true christian fashion: i'll pray for you. =)

This is something some folks have a problem with. You use animals as a derogatory term which of course is not meant to be one in biology. You whether you like it or not belong to the animal kingdom. How do we know that? You are not a plant and have more than one cells.

I eat animals. they're quite tasty. However I don't eat people, because they are created in the image and likeness of God. thats also why you don't kill people, but can kill animals. how many animals did they sacrifice in the old testament? hundreds of thousands. Christ is the Lamb of God who was sacrificed for our sins, and he completed his mission, and he is our High Priest forever.

Whether you like the fact that you are an animal or not is irrelevant biologically you ARE one. And if Jesus came in the form of a human then Jesus also belonged, for His stay, in the animal kingdom biologically.

he was indeed a mammal. =) does that make you happy?

We are however sentient which puts us in a special place withing the rest of the life forms. We are still part of the food chain and we are bound by our biology but we unlike every other life form have the ability to question our origin, existance and try to find meaning.

and who gave us that ability praytell?

The spirit IMO comes from God, the fact that we have eyes comes from our ancestors and the ancestors of the ancestors etc this whole thing was however kick started by God according to His rules that He set up and we discover through science. Is it so hard to understand?

God made everything, so the spirit isn't the only thing that comes from God. whats hard to understand is why y'all think it happened by chance/accident and was not purposefully created by God.

We don't need to be specially created, we don't need to live in the center of the universe we were blessed by God with spirit and that is all the special treatment we need to feel His touch. Everything else is an effort to raise our status above His creation just to make us feel warm and fuzzy.

and you have a right to that opinion! i'd reccomend you read the Bible more tho, you might change your mind.

We don’t know that, we only have a second hand account that Christ ever said any such thing.

Well if he is resurrected, he is in control, and if he is in control, he can preserve the scriptures about what he said by his omnipotence.

You seem to dare to speak for him, I’ll take it up with you, you are the one making the claims that lead to the conclusion that most modern Christian sects are heretical, so you can defend your own argument rather than trying to dodge it.

The Bible speaks for itself. I happen to believe it, you seem not to. To each his own!

Do not presume to threaten me in Gods name, I suggest you ask forgiveness from God tonight for doing so.

Huh? I'm not threatening anything! If you actually do know what is best for you, for your soul, then you will believe every word that God said! I don't see the threat... sorry you felt threatened!

All the physical evidence that God himself left in the world attests against a world wide flood.

maybe it was just a very effective flood. did you ever consider that? God is more powerful than you obviously believe.


[bible]
You really do not know what you are talking about do you? The books in which Bible? Since the books in the Catholic bible the books in the Orthodox bible and the books in the protestant bible are all different, and the votes at the council of Nicea were not unanimous, if God had been guiding the council directly the votes would have been unanimous.
[/bible]

I go to the store, I buy a Bible. Believe what you want, I don't overcomplicate things.

> But some of you don't believe God exists,

But I do beleive in God, so stop trying to obfuscate.

then that sentence must not have been directed at you then, was it? it must have been directed at those 'some people' who Don't believe in God. its not all about you you you man.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

No you are calling the majority of Christians heretics for not agreeing with you, and what is more it is not “Some council” did you bother to read this sites terms and conditions? Because if you had you would notice that the definition of Christian used here is some one who accepts the creed of that council. So tell me, do you accept the creed or do you not? A simple yes or no will do.

Also I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension, I am not calling you a heretic for not accepting the council of Nicea and its creed, i am directly refuting your belief that the rest of us are heretical for accepting it.

here we go with the heretic stuff again. enough with putting words in my mouth, i'm quite capable of making a fool of myself without your help =)

oh, and yes, i absolutely accept the Nicene creed, and the apostles creed. i think there might be some other creed too but i havent read it yet. my faith goes deeper than creeds though.

Well i don’t usually like to speak for others but I feel compelled to point out that they don’t disbelieve in the existence of a man named Christ (on the whole, although some do), they disbelieve in Christ as the messiah, so do Muslims, Jews and many others. Ghandi for example believed in the existence of Christ, but not that Christ was the messiah. he also pointed out that few Christens act like Christ, his truism holds to this day.

well if Ghandi did not believe that Christ the Lord rose from the dead, then he is in hell, no matter how nice he was. <puts up flame shield>. if he did believe that Christ the Lord rose from the dead, then he is in heaven. it aint for me to decide who goes where. all i can do is bring the gospel to people and hope they choose to be saved by the blood of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

Well I didn’t tell you to be more Christlike, I suspect the person who did was suggesting you treat people more respectfully and you embrace debate rather than trying to force your fellow Christians to avoid it, but he may have had something else in mind.

again, its not all about you. look outside yourself and love one another as Christ loves you, as he has commanded. or was that supposed to be figurative too in your opinion?

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Mmkay, time for lunch. Take care y'all! And don't forget to repent =)

 

[Silent Bob]

I'm out. I ll go talk to a wall.

Bye bye now.