Ask an atheist!

[fritz300]

Okay, I grasp that, fritz. So instead of the sins now being laws in a potential theocracy, they are now the rules one must abide in order to get into heaven. That about right?

Now all I need from you is a specific quote where the curse of the law is defined as punishment of death for having commited sin.

of course not, we cannot be saved by works or by following the Law.

We are only saved by grace, through faith.. the works and obedience to what God has said comes AFTER and in itself is not necessarily an issue of Salvation...

Hmm I will look for some more versus regarding the curse of the Law, death on the tree, not able to keep the whole Law and etc.
but now you have gotten me started on my next one

'Heaven' as interpreted by most Christian's does not exist, nor is it even Scriptural... most of the references by Yeshua Himself are talking about the New Jerusalem... as well as versus in Ezekiel 40+... another delusion of mainstream Christianity... now there WILL be a 'new heaven and new earth', but that's after the millennial era and is not discussed much.

Regards,
fritz

 

[Drosophila1]

of course not, we cannot be saved by works or by following the Law.

We are only saved by grace, through faith.. the works and obedience to what God has said comes AFTER and in itself is not necessarily an issue of Salvation...

Yes, I assumed that belief is a requisite. But if that is the ONLY requisite, why then should one not eat lobster, as your god forbids?

 

[SonicBOOM]

Yes, I assumed that belief is a requisite. But if that is the ONLY requisite, why then should one not eat lobster, as your god forbids?

health reasons. Lobster [without the modern cooking techoligy we have today] is absurdly unhealthy. Eating lobster is very bad for you if you don't have the right supplies. you need to find a way to clean the lobster, check for diseases [it cleans the ocean floor after all], and to cook it right. the people in OT times lacked all of this... so God forbid the eating of lobster. it's about health really. Proverbs [or psalms?] claims that if we obey the laws of the Lord we will live a long and healthy life [and indeed, we will]

 

[SiderealExalt]

Well, you might recall Tibet up until the middle of the last century. Not exactly what you may call a lovely theocracy. More like a theocrazy.

Nice not reading the entire post. Especially the part about the reaction to theologies in AMERICA. Woot.

And to answer a question, no I don't ever find it depressing. I do find the insanity and idiocy of religious wackos during the time I lived in the South depressing. There are levels of stupidity human beings should never reach.

 

[français]

Do you ever find it depressing?

Not at all. It was actually a relief to me.. I am gay, and always feared eternal hell because of it. I would not be able to sleep at night for soooo many years because of it. I tried so hard to change who I was because I feared hell and thought i was in sin.

When I became atheist, I was so relieved to know that I can now be who I wish without fearing. I do not hurt anyone by being gay. And I am glad that I realized that religion was in error when it told me I was.

No one can imagine how hard it is for a gay christian. I mean they may try and act happy, and act as if it is not a sin according to their religion.. But deep down, they are filled with sadness.. They are sad because they feel that homosexuality really is a sin.. But they know that they did not choose to be gay. And they are just so upset that they(feel) they are in sin for something that they did not choose, and they are not hurting anyone.

So when I realized I no longer believed in god, I was so relieved, and so happy.

At the same time though, there is a part of me that was upset. I mean this is the religion of my ancestors, the religion of my family.. My grandpa is a pastor for heavens sake! It is the religion that I grew up, and that I had so much respect for. It was the religion that even though condemned me for being gay, I always felt loved by Jesus, even in bad times. It was a religion that made me not fear death, because I felt there would be an afterlife.

So there are aspects I miss, and aspects that I don't. For the most part though, I am happier an atheist now then a Christian.

 

[fritz300]

health reasons. Lobster [without the modern cooking techoligy we have today] is absurdly unhealthy. Eating lobster is very bad for you if you don't have the right supplies. you need to find a way to clean the lobster, check for diseases [it cleans the ocean floor after all], and to cook it right. the people in OT times lacked all of this... so God forbid the eating of lobster. it's about health really. Proverbs [or psalms?] claims that if we obey the laws of the Lord we will live a long and healthy life [and indeed, we will]

Yep.. another awesome example of God actually protecting us with His commandments! It's about protection, it's a marriage covenant to love God and your neighbor!

 

[Drosophila1]

health reasons. Lobster [without the modern cooking techoligy we have today] is absurdly unhealthy. Eating lobster is very bad for you if you don't have the right supplies. you need to find a way to clean the lobster, check for diseases [it cleans the ocean floor after all], and to cook it right. the people in OT times lacked all of this... so God forbid the eating of lobster. it's about health really. Proverbs [or psalms?] claims that if we obey the laws of the Lord we will live a long and healthy life [and indeed, we will]

So that warrants a commandment to not eat lobster? A COMMANDMENT to not eat lobster. Basically, God likes us to have free will so that we can make up our own mind about his existence, thereby letting many of his beloved creations burn in hell forever. But lobster... no no, that's too risky to gamble with. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but it seems a bit well.. strange.

Nice not reading the entire post. Especially the part about the reaction to theologies in AMERICA. Woot.

What you wrote about buddhism, I took as a general statement about buddhism, and not specifically in America. So you didn't mean it in general. No need to get your knickers in a bunch.

 

[Everlasting33]

In what positive ways does Christianity affect the community and self? What about atheism?

 

[fritz300]

So that warrants a commandment to not eat lobster? A COMMANDMENT to not eat lobster. Basically, God likes us to have free will so that we can make up our own mind about his existence, thereby letting many of his beloved creations burn in hell forever. But lobster... no no, that's too risky to gamble with. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but it seems a bit well.. strange..

The biggest picture that most of the mainstream church doesn't recognize is that it's about marriage covenant. You need to look at it from that perspective.

In reality, it's about protection! God says I will be your God and I will be your people. It's a very intimate thing. Marriage covenant, protection!

 

[Drosophila1]

In what positive ways does Christianity affect the community and self? What about atheism?

Personally, I don't think organized religion brings anything good to the table that a secular organization couldn't do without the need to bring in beliefs. Atheism doesn't affect the community, I don't think. For good or for bad. It's just an answer to the question: do you believe in a god?

The biggest picture that most of the mainstream church doesn't recognize is that it's about marriage covenant. You need to look at it from that perspective.

In reality, it's about protection! God says I will be your God and I will be your people. It's a very intimate thing. Marriage covenant, protection!

What do you mean by looking at it from the perspective of the marriage covenant?
But how can God be protective to the point of forcing someone to obey with regards to lobster (a commandment), and not a belief in him? If he cares about us getting food poisoning, why not our eternal soul? That part doesn't make sense if you think about it objectively.

 

[Blackguard_]

But how can God be protective to the point of forcing someone to obey with regards to lobster (a commandment), and not a belief in him? If he cares about us getting food poisoning, why not our eternal soul? That part doesn't make sense if you think about it objectively.

Uhh, beleiving in God is a commandment. The first in fact.

 

[SonicBOOM]

So that warrants a commandment to not eat lobster? A COMMANDMENT to not eat lobster.

whats wrong with a commandment? All a commandment is a word of instruction.

Basically, God likes us to have free will so that we can make up our own mind about his existence, thereby letting many of his beloved creations burn in hell forever. But lobster... no no, that's too risky to gamble with. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but it seems a bit well.. strange.

it's alot more complex than "denying God and burning". those who deny God also deny his ways as Jesus seems to tell us. There are people who deny God on an intellectaul level and thats a completely diffrent story in my oppionion. The group I am refering to are those who deny God because they prefer evil. Have you ever considered the connection the bible makes with the word "Godless" and the word "evil"? Back in biblical days EVERYONE beleived in some sort of god. Some gods liked child-sacrifice while other gods adored sex. So in the bible it wasn't a matter of IF you beleived in a god... it was more a matter of WHAT TYPE of god you beleived in. the god you beleived in effected your morel beleifs very strongly. The people in the biblical days didn't reject God on intellectaul grounds... they rejected him because they prefered the evil ways of their OWN gods. So thats why in the biblical days evil is connected with disbeleif. it wasn't intelectaul disbeleif that was being presented... it was simply a beleif in evil over good.

 

[Blackguard_]

Back in biblical days EVERYONE beleived in some sort of god.

Not true. There were Epicureans and other athiests in Biblical days. They were rarer then in the modern West sure, but they existed.

 

[Drosophila1]

Uhh, beleiving in God is a commandment. The first in fact.

Granted, but which one? There are many religions. If I were God I'd make it absolutely clear who I was. ...Or I would just let everyone into heaven anyway. Or better yet, make earth heaven.

whats wrong with a commandment? All a commandment is a word of instruction.

No, I didn't mean there was something wrong with A commandment. But warning us against food poisoning via lobster seems arbitrary and very much bares the sign of coming from the man who wrote, and not some deity that inspired him. Wouldn't it be strange if Jesus came back, and the first thing he said was "Remember to floss!" ?

it's alot more complex than "denying God and burning". those who deny God also deny his ways as Jesus seems to tell us. There are people who deny God on an intellectaul level and thats a completely diffrent story in my oppionion. The group I am refering to are those who deny God because they prefer evil. Have you ever considered the connection the bible makes with the word "Godless" and the word "evil"? Back in biblical days EVERYONE beleived in some sort of god. Some gods liked child-sacrifice while other gods adored sex. So in the bible it wasn't a matter of IF you beleived in a god... it was more a matter of WHAT TYPE of god you beleived in. the god you beleived in effected your morel beleifs very strongly. The people in the biblical days didn't reject God on intellectaul grounds... they rejected him because they prefered the evil ways of their OWN gods. So thats why in the biblical days evil is connected with disbeleif. it wasn't intelectaul disbeleif that was being presented... it was simply a beleif in evil over good.

You write this justifying scripture based on the fact that people of that time wrote it. I agree with that, and that could be a reason why they wrote it like that, even though it wasn't true. The christian God does not have the copyrights to moral behavior. And as you said, one has to believe in God to get into heaven. No ifs ands or buts.

We are getting a bit off topic with this though, and it's my fault. What I'm trying to see is if you follow all of scripture 100% and that this is a good thing.

 

[SiderealExalt]

What you wrote about buddhism, I took as a general statement about buddhism, and not specifically in America. So you didn't mean it in general. No need to get your knickers in a bunch.

No knickers, no bunch. But considering the paragraph was about why people in America tend to call out Christians more than they do other religions, so it seems rather obvious you didn't bother reading the paragraph.

 

[Blackguard_]

Granted, but which one?

Are you serious?

"The God of Abraham just carved on a tablet that he is our god and we should have no gods before him. So, umm, which God are we supposed to put before all others? Marduk? Ra?"

There are many religions.

You don't say.

 

[Drosophila1]

No knickers, no bunch. But considering the paragraph was about why people in America tend to call out Christians more than they do other religions, so it seems rather obvious you didn't bother reading the paragraph.

I did read it, even though I didn't quote everything and respond to everything. I thought you meant something you clearly didn't mean. Have a cookie and get over it.

 

[Drosophila1]

Are you serious?

"The God of Abraham just carved on a tablet that he is our god and we should have no gods before him. So, umm, which God are we supposed to put before all others? Marduk? Ra?"


You don't say.

Okay, and can you produce these tablets for us to see?

 

[SonicBOOM]

No, I didn't mean there was something wrong with A commandment. But warning us against food poisoning via lobster seems arbitrary and very much bares the sign of coming from the man who wrote, and not some deity that inspired him. Wouldn't it be strange if Jesus came back, and the first thing he said was "Remember to floss!" ?

not really... the first thing Jesus did after his reserection is go fishing. Christainity is a very common-sense beleif. it's nutjobs who make Christainity out to be some sort of phycodic head-trip.

We are getting a bit off topic with this though, and it's my fault. What I'm trying to see is if you follow all of scripture 100% and that this is a good thing.

Why must a Christain beleive the bible with 100% accurecy? Most Christains are confused as to what the bible actully IS! Cathlics and protestants, in a sense, read 2 completely diffrent bibles entirely. The bible is not meant to be infallable in the sense that we are to obey it verse by verse [not even Jesus did this, the OT law commands us to seek revenge while Jesus tells us that we are to love our enemies]. The bible is infallable in a sense that it has the greatest possability to speak to us about God and life. I'm sort of confused why people assume Christainity always has to be about the super-spiritail. Isn't it this kind of mindset that Jesus saught to correct? The very first Christain fathers beleived that the purpose of Christainity was to free ourselves to love God and love our neighbor more effectively.... and they lived it by example as well. St therese of Liseriex and St John of the Cross both had a profound profound love for God and for people and for life in general. when you got a person loving God with all their heart, soul, strength, and mind as well as loving their neighbor as theirself. than you got a 100% complete person in God. all christain generations have beleived this.

 

[Drosophila1]

not really... the first thing Jesus did after his reserection is go fishing. Christainity is a very common-sense beleif. it's nutjobs who make Christainity out to be some sort of phycodic head-trip.

Hehe, yes but now you're explaining why arbitrary commandments make sense by giving an example of Jesus being strange after he resurrected. It's still strange.

Why must a Christain beleive the bible with 100% accurecy?

I'm glad they don't, but where then does one draw the line? My answer would be that we draw the line where our conscience tells us to. "Let's see, is this part nice? No... Okay, let's not obey that stuff". If I'm wrong about that, which parts of the Bible have more merrit than the others?

Most Christains are confused as to what the bible actully IS! Cathlics and protestants, in a sense, read 2 completely diffrent bibles entirely. The bible is not meant to be infallable in the sense that we are to obey it verse by verse [not even Jesus did this, the OT law commands us to seek revenge while Jesus tells us that we are to love our enemies]. The bible is infallable in a sense that it has the greatest possability to speak to us about God and life. I'm sort of confused why people assume Christainity always has to be about the super-spiritail. Isn't it this kind of mindset that Jesus saught to correct? The very first Christain fathers beleived that the purpose of Christainity was to free ourselves to love God and love our neighbor more effectively.... and they lived it by example as well. St therese of Liseriex and St John of the Cross both had a profound profound love for God and for people and for life in general. when you got a person loving God with all their heart, soul, strength, and mind as well as loving their neighbor as theirself. than you got a 100% complete person in God. all christain generations have beleived this.

You define true christians as those who have all those nice attributes and then conclude that this is what true christians have always believed. This is a circular argument, surely. People do what they believe, and so people who are nice believe in being nice. That's all you have established.