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Ask a Christian philosopher a question

oi_antz

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Acceptance of claims which can be objectively and independently corroborated is better than accepting claims that are unsupportable.
This is a statement I do expect is generally always true. However, it has some potential weaknesses:

1. It's acceptance and promotion may encourage a belief that claims should not be accepted unless they are objectively and independently corroborated. Sometimes this might be wise, but other times it might cause unnecessary deprivation.
2. "Objective and independent corroboration" can potentially be unreasonably frustrated by the dishonest.
3. "Better" is a very loose word.
 
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Davian

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I am not bothered by the fact that the consensus of atheists here is that I am an unworthy opponent. It is a consensus I actually expect.
This response would seem to be in contradiction with your apparent enthusiasm to engage atheists in debate.
 
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HitchSlap

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This is a statement I do expect is generally always true. However, it has some potential weaknesses:

1. It's acceptance and promotion may encourage a belief that claims should not be accepted unless they are objectively and independently corroborated. Sometimes this might be wise, but other times it might cause unnecessary deprivation.
2. "Objective and independent corroboration" can potentially be unreasonably frustrated by the dishonest.
3. "Better" is a very loose word.
Could you give an example of #1?
 
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oi_antz

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Could you give an example of #1?
I think so. How about a level train crossing, as an example. Since the lights and bells at the crossing are employed to indicate that traffic should stop and wait for the train to pass, people come to rely on that technology. However, technology is prone to error, and although the risk is so small that most people accept the risk and do not look before proceeding, the risk exists and there is still some possibility that the bells and lights may fail. In this case:

Traffic must independently verify that a train is not coming before proceeding to cross the tracks. If they fail to do this, and their confidence in the reliability of the technology is proven to have been in error, then it will have been unwise to have not checked first. On the other hand, when the technology is independently verified to have been working as expected, then stopping to perform that check has caused an unnecessary deprivation of transport efficiency.

Thinking of this example, as I reflect on my own attitudes, of course I am one of those who routinely stops to independently verify that it is safe to cross the tracks. I believe it is wise to do so, and I do not regret the unnecessary deprivation. An example of when an unnecessary deprivation might be regrettable, might be if someone needs to drink water so urgently that they do not have time to test whether the water may be harmful, so they accept the risk to drink it knowing that if they do not take the risk, then they will certainly perish. They might have to decide whether they continue looking for another source of water, for which they have no guarantee. In this case, they will look at the quality of the environment to consider whether the water appears to be harmful or beneficial to life, and they will choose to act based on their instinct. Probably better examples will come to mind as I keep it in mind.
 
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bhsmte

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According to what He claims, that if those who love the truth recognise that what He says is true, then we would first need to identify a person who loves the truth. Then when such a person is found, they would put this claim to the test by considering whether they recognise that what He says is true. I am one of those people, so I am able to do this. But in having said that, you are asking a loaded question, seeing as it assumes objectiveness is always achievable.

You personally determine the story to be true, based on your personal experience and interpretation. Nothing wrong with that, but it is why it is called; faith.

Some can't just jump on board like that, without a means to verify something as having a minimum level of outside objectivity, that goes beyond, personal interpretation.
 
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anonymous person

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If I may permitted to add that IMO you are not a worthy opponent to these people. However, I do believe The Truth is a worthy opponent, and I believe you are a capable servant.

I am making effort to suggest that you could be useful by concentrating less on viewing yourself as their subject, and more on representing the truths He has shown you, and to be impartial. In other words, as I was discussing with a friend last night, do not let your personal likes and dislikes affect your judgements. He was describing how he had tolerated people's boasting of having taken billboard posters for their keepsake, because the event was one that he was morally opposed to, and describing how in hindsight he would have discouraged it if the event had been one of his favour. I found that he was motivated by spite to do that. We established that a repentant Christian (the one who loves the truth) actually does not refuse to know of their faults, because by acknowledging our faults then we can improve and become less faulty. Yet, a Christian who is proud to represent their clan might resist acknowledging their fault so as to not expose their weakness and bring Jesus Christ into disrepute. To answer that, I would suggest James 4:5-6

Or what do you think the Scripture means when it says that the Holy Spirit, whom God has placed within us, watches over us with tender jealousy?

But he gives us more and more strength to stand against all such evil longings. As the Scripture says, God gives strength to the humble but sets himself against the proud and haughty.

I like this and must concur that the temptation is always to defend oneself. I concur that we are called to turn people's attention to Truth. To Jesus.
 
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anonymous person

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In my opinion it's exactly why you're "unfazed." Just because you're a Christian and god's on your side, doesn't make what you say any less vacuous.

I don't consider people disagreeing with me an instance of them persecuting me. I consider it an instance of them disagreeing with me.

And I do not claim God is on my side. Rather I would claim that I wish to be found by Him to be on His side.
 
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anonymous person

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Would you agree that:

1. Reality exists.
2. We can learn some things about reality.
3. Falsifiable models with predictive capabilities work better than those without.

I agree with one and two and would add a qualifier to three. The qualifier would be: "when possible or feasible".

Not every claim is subject to falsification.

What do you do with those?
 
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HitchSlap

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I agree with one and two and would add a qualifier to three. The qualifier would be: "when possible or feasible".

Not every claim is subject to falsification.

What do you do with those?
Would you agree that all claims should have evidence for their assertion?
 
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anonymous person

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1 Chronicles 3:15King James Version (KJV)
15 And the sons of Josiah were, the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum.

This is not listing the birth order?

Obviously not. As Keil and Delitzsch observe:

The kings of the house of David from Solomon till the exile. - Until Josiah the individual kings are mentioned in their order, each with the addition בּנו, son of the preceding, 1 Chronicles 3:10-14; the only omission being that of the usurper Athaliah, because she did not belong to the posterity of David. But in 1 Chronicles 3:15 four sons of Josiah are mentioned, not "in order to allow of a halt in the long line of David's descendants after Josiah the great reformer" (Berth.), but because with Josiah the regular succession to the throne in the house of David ceased. For the younger son Jehoahaz, who was made king after his father's death by the people, was soon dethroned by Pharaoh-Necho, and led away captive to Egypt; and of the other sons Jehoiakim was set up by Pharaoh, and Zedekiah by Nebuchadnezzar, so that both were only vassals of heathen lords of the land, and the independent kingship of David came properly to an end with the death of Josiah. Johanan, the first-born of the sons of Josiah, is not to be identified with Jehoahaz, whom the people raised to the throne. For, in the first place, it appears from the statement as to the ages of Jehoahaz and Jehoiakim in2 Kings 23:31, 2 Kings 23:36; 2 Chronicles 36:2, 2 Chronicles 36:5, that Jehoahaz was two years younger than Jehoiakim, and consequently was not the first-born. InJeremiah 22:11 it is expressly declared that Shallum, the fourth son of Josiah, was king of Judah instead of his father, and was led away into captivity, and never saw his native land again, as history narrates of Jehoahaz. From this it would appear that Shallum took, as king, the name Jehoahaz. Johanan, the first-born, is not met with again in history, either because he died early, or because nothing remarkable could be told of him. Jehoiakim was called Eliakim before he was raised to the throne (2 Kings 23:24). Zedekiah was at first Mattaniah (2 Kings 24:17). Zedekiah, on his ascending the throne, was younger than Shallum, and that event occurred eleven years after the accession of Shallum equals Jehoahaz. Zedekiah was only twenty-one years old, while Jehoahaz had become king in his twenty-third year. But in our genealogy Zedekiah is introduced after Jehoiakim, and before Shallum, because, on the one hand, Jehoiakim and Zedekiah had occupied the throne for a longer period, each having been eleven years king; and on the other, Zedekiah and Shallum were sons of Hamutal (2 Kings 23:31; 2 Kings 24:18), while Jehoiakim was the son of Zebudah (2 Kings 23:36). According to age, they should have followed each other in this order - Johanan, Jehoiakim, Shallum, and Zedekiah; and in respect to their kingship, Shallum should have stood before Jehoiakim. But in both cases those born of the same mother, Hamutal, would have been separated. To avoid this, apparently, Shallum has been enumerated in the fourth place, along with his full brother Zedekiah. In 1 Chronicles 3:6 it is remarkable that a son of Jehoiakim's son Jeconiah is mentioned, named Zedekiah, while the sons of Jeconiah follow only in 1 Chronicles 3:17 and 1 Chronicles 3:18. Jeconiah (cf. Jeremiah 24:1; shortened Coniah, Jeremiah 22:24, Jeremiah 22:28, and Jeremiah 37:1) is called, as kings, in 2 Kings 24:8. and 2 Chronicles 36:9, Jehoiachin, another form of the name, but having the same signification, "Jahve founds or establishes." Zedekiah can only be a son of Jeconiah, for the בּנו which is added constantly denotes that the person so called is the son of his predecessor. Many commentators, certainly, were of opinion that Zedekiah was the same person as the brother of Jehoiakim mentioned in 1 Chronicles 3:15 under the name Zidkijahu, and who is here introduced as son of Jeconiah, because he was the successor of Jeconiah on the throne. For this view support was sought in a reference to 1 Chronicles 3:10., in which all Solomon's successors in the kingship are enumerated in order with בּנו. But all the kings who succeeded each other from Solomon to Josiah were also, without exception, sons of their predecessors; so that there בּנו throughout denotes a proper son, while King Zedekiah, on the contrary, was not the son, but an uncle of Jeconiah (Jehoiachin). We must therefore hold צדקיּה for a literal son of Jeconiah, and that so much the more, because the name צדקיּה differs also from צדקיּהוּ, as the name of the king is constantly written in 2 Kings 24:17. and in 2 Chronicles 36:10. But mention is made of this Zedekiah in 1 Chronicles 3:16 apart from the other sons of Jeconiah (1 Chronicles 3:17 and 1 Chronicles 3:18), perhaps because he was not led away captive into exile with the others, but died in Judah before the breaking up of the kingdom. (Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament, by Carl Friedrich Keil and Franz Delitzsch [1857-78])

In addition, Shallum was an utter disgrace and would have been listed last by the chronicler by virtue of this, along with the aforementioned reasons.


I am aware of this defense, and that is why I did not say that Jehoiachin's rule contradicts the prophecy. However, an 11-year rule by his brother would contradict the prophecy.

So once again we have a contradiction either way.

Wrong.

As Gill observes:

He shall have none to sit upon the throne—fulfilled (2Ki 24:8, &c.; 2Ki 25:1-30). He had successors, but not directly of his posterity, except his son Jeconiah, whose three months' reign is counted as nothing and could not be called sitting upon the throne; and, besides, was never confirmed by the king of Babylon, in whose power he was, and by whom he was carried captive; and Zedekiah, who followed, was not his lawful successor, was brother to Jehoiakim, and uncle to Jeconiah, and was set up by the king of Babylon in contempt of the latter; and as for Zerubbabel, he was no king, nor was there any of this family till the Messiah came. (Exposition of the Entire Bible by John Gill [1746-63])
 
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anonymous person

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Nothing specific. Just trying to establish the best way to evaluate claims made.
Depends on the claim.

Claims subject to these "objective and independently verifiable and falsifiable models" you speak of can be verified by these models.

Claims not subject to these models are verified by other means.

For example, the claim that Jesus was crucified by order of Pontius Pilate is not subject to verification via an objective and independently verifiable and falsifiable model.

You make use of the various tools a historiographer employs in their discipline. Geology is a similar discipline.
 
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HitchSlap

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Depends on the claim.

Claims subject to these "objective and independently verifiable and falsifiable models" you speak of can be verified by these models.

Claims not subject to these models are verified by other means.

For example, the claim that Jesus was crucified by order of Pontius Pilate is not subject to verification via an objective and independently verifiable and falsifiable model.

You make use of the various tools a historiographer employs in their discipline. Geology is a similar discipline.
Then it's prudent to limit claims to available evidence, otherwise, it's simply speculation. In the case of historicity, scholars follow very strict methods of evaluation. These methods also apply to the NT.
 
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Davian

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I like this and must concur that the temptation is always to defend oneself. I concur that we are called to turn people's attention to Truth. To Jesus.
That would be inappropriate for this forum, even if you were able to establish your opinion as truth.
 
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anonymous person

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Then it's prudent to limit claims to available evidence, otherwise, it's simply speculation. In the case of historicity, scholars follow very strict methods of evaluation. These methods also apply to the NT.
I am aware of this. I am a New Testament scholar myself.
 
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anonymous person

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That would be inappropriate for this forum, even if you were able to establish your opinion as truth.
No it would not be inappropriate but appropriate. Truth is a very integral part of philosophy in general.
 
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Davian

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No it would not be inappropriate but appropriate. Truth is a very integral part of philosophy in general.
lol. I was referring to proselytizing. It does not seem that you are attempting to establish "truth" in a philosophical context.
 
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