Ask a Christian philosopher a question

Breckmin

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3. What is a "symmetrical afterlife"?

Eternity forever and ever... never ending where billions of people receive perfect justice for
eternal sins (which are wrongfully called finite sins due to ignorance)...
and millions of people (maybe 1% of all humanity in human history) receive incredible
(unobligated from God) mercy/grace where God Himself has paid for their wickedness.

The temporary creation is setting up for this. Question why people are missing its
obviousness. (meaning "that it's a temporary creation and judgement/accountability/consequences is coming")
 
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Breckmin

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I have a question for a christian philosopher: what is good?

Well,
let's first talk about what "good" is NOT. Good is not just the absence of evil. (even though God is absent of
evil and TRUE cosmic good is not evil).
Good is also NOT the exact opposite of "good" because GOOD is the standard by which evil is judged...
evil is NOT/never a standard by which good is somehow judged.

Evil is not just the absence of good... contrary to the broken record from Christians who are being over-simplistic.

Good is really based on God's will and God's nature as Thomas Aquinas so elegantly defended against the
false dilemma of Plato's Euthyphro Dilemma centuries ago.

God is Good... may be tantamount to saying "God is God" BUT... the concision of generalizing about God
being good doesn't address all of the "specific" characteristics of how we KNOW that God is good. Such
is very important when you make the assertion that God is good. (faithfulness, just, merciful, truthful, etc)

So with respect to divine command theory... Good is neither good because God says it is good or commands
it to be good... nor is it good because it is intrinsically good on its own independent of God... no. Good is
Good because it is the will of the Creator Who made everything and owns everything...and good is consistent
with the nature and characteristics of such Creator Who sets the standard for Good in His own universe.

This is not arbitrary and whimsical... and it is actually pure ignorance to make such a claim. There are
specific aspects of good which we can identify and attribute to the Creator .... and clearly the Owner
of the universe Who is the Supreme Authority Who owns what He created and owns everything... is
not to be compared to other finite created beings within such Creator's universe.

If we say "moral good is whatever God wants and whatever characteristic(s) God has" it doesn't
mean that there are not specific characteristics that we can identify. We are NOT claiming...
"God can do whatever God does...and it will still be good." No. IF God punished a creature
for something they didn't do... like an innocent angel...and punished that angel for what someone
else did...then that would be an act of injustice on God's part.

IF God became and Man and gave Himself as a Self-sacrifice and punished the Man He became
for everyone's sins...THEN such would not be injustice but an act of mercy/grace and SELF-SACRIFICE
not to be confused with punishing a mere creature (this is one reasons why the Jehovah's Witnesses
preach blasphemy).

"Good" is specific things which God wants and specific things which God IS. Good is based on
the Infinite Creator of the universe... and THAT Creator owns everything because He created
everything... and you own what you create.

God sets the Standard for moral good in His Own universe. Such a standard comes with
specific characteristics and if we wrongfully miss these in concision then we might be
guilty of making a false accusation against the Owner and Creator of the universe...

by calling His wants and attributes "whimsical" or "arbitrary" because we "ignored" WHAT
specifically those wants and attributes are. Question everything!
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Eternity forever and ever... never ending where billions of people receive perfect justice for
eternal sins (which are wrongfully called finite sins due to ignorance)...
and millions of people (maybe 1% of all humanity in human history) receive incredible
(unobligated from God) mercy/grace where God Himself has paid for their wickedness.

The temporary creation is setting up for this. Question why people are missing its
obviousness.
Perhaps because it is not at all as obvious as some claim?
 
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Breckmin

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Good is also NOT the exact opposite of "good" because GOOD is the standard by which evil is judged...
evil is NOT/never a standard by which good is somehow judged.


God sets the Standard for moral good in His Own universe.

You can have good and not have evil.

You can NOT have evil unless there is good.

To have real knowledge of good... you must have knowledge of its contrast which is moral evil.

Knowledge of future moral evil, however, is NOT the same thing has moral evil existing in a
current present state. Contrasts are important for knowledge... but not always necessary
for the existence of one particular state (such as good or perfection).
Question everything indeed.
 
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Breckmin

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Perhaps because it is not at all as obvious as some claim?

Yes.

Clearly the gospel is said to be "hidden" in some respects... but knowledge of moral evil
and an expectation of a future perfection which no one could live up to in judgement...

should get those who have a desire for self-preservation thinking about the future...

If God is a perfect judge and is NOT obligated to give mercy... then forever is a long
time for justice. Q.E. indeed.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Yes.

Clearly the gospel is said to be "hidden" in some respects... but knowledge of moral evil
and an expectation of a future perfection which no one could live up to in judgement...

should get those who have a desire for self-preservation thinking about the future...

If God is a perfect judge and is NOT obligated to give mercy... then forever is a long
time for justice. Q.E. indeed.
In what way would it be "justice" to punish people everlastingly, particularly when the principles underpinning this supposed justice system are in no way obvious, as you already admitted?
 
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quatona

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Eternity forever and ever... never ending where billions of people receive perfect justice for
eternal sins (which are wrongfully called finite sins due to ignorance)...
and millions of people (maybe 1% of all humanity in human history) receive incredible
(unobligated from God) mercy/grace where God Himself has paid for their wickedness.
Ok, i have no idea why to call that "symmetrical" of all adjectives, but ok.

The temporary creation is setting up for this. Question why people are missing its
obviousness.
Well, I could explain to you why it´s not obvious to me.
 
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Breckmin

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"You can have good and not have evil."

You can have perfection and not yet have imperfection. Clearly you would have to
have knowledge of future contrast in order for the concept of "perfection" to be
meaningful in any way...but you can have "good" (just God... or even God
plus holy (good) angels) and not have any "evil" yet. IF these beings/angels have
true self-generating freewill, then eventually the potential for having the possible
byproduct of choosing the/a wicked thing will have to be dealt with.


"You can NOT have evil unless there is good."

Good is the standard which judges evil... evil is not a standard.

You can just have God and His Perfection and not have evil...(no
other beings yet (or no finite beings) to commit it using their freewill).

If there is no such thing as good... then there is no such thing as missing
the mark of being good. You can have a mark (good) and not have anyone
missing such mark... but you can't have "missing the mark" (sin) unless you have
the mark (good).
 
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Breckmin

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In what way would it be "justice" to punish people everlastingly, particularly when the principles underpinning this supposed justice system are in no way obvious, as you already admitted?

The way to salvation/grace/mercy may not be obvious... but I didn't say (admit) that sin/wickedness wasn't obvious.

We violate our own moral consciences when we sin (begin to sin). We may continue in such behavior as to
burn/sear and ruin our own moral compass/conscience... but we still have been given a conscience for knowing
when we are FIRST committing moral evil.

To answer your question, however, (in what way would it be "justice" to punish people everlastingly?) we
would first have to make a distinction between "separation" and "punishment." God is Perfect and absolutely
Holy... God will not fellowship with a morally tainted creation/creature (freewill creature) unless that creature
has been made righteous (in Christ Jesus through His perfect Sacrifice). So if someone taints themselves with
committing moral evil then God will logically "separate" them from His affectionate fellowship AND from the
new heaven and new earth. This separation is due to their "taintedness." (self-taintedness and guiltiness.
God doesn't punish the innocent.)

Now the punishment is for exact actions. This is why eternal hell can be thought of as "unequal punishment
AND separation." Everyone in the afterlife receiving justice will receive "unequal" punishment BASED ON
their exact infractions.

Now there is also something eternal about the nature of sin itself. Sin stays in the historical record from this
temporary creation forever. If sin (moral evil) is never responded to with perfect justice, then it would remain
in existence (the historical record from the temporary creation) as a mockery against the JUSTICE and holiness
of God. It is the RIGHTNESS/righteousness of justice that makes punishing eternal sin/wickedness a logical
retribution.

It is the nature of sin itself to be eternal in multiple ways. There is no such thing as a finite sin. Just think
about if you kill someone... you affect their eternity forever.... by sending them into eternity sooner than
if you had NOT killed them. If you rape a woman... you will affect her life and the things she might have
done in her life. You will logically affect her eternity (either rewards or consequences)by changing/altering
her life experiences and circumstances. This is true for any sin you commit against another person that
has an effect on them. You change or contribute to affecting their eternity (their life) in some way.
Eternity involves eternal rewards for an adopted person/child of God and eternal consequences for the
disobedient slave (owned by God...but not an adopted child) who must pay for all of their sin debt.

An imperfect person can clearly never reach completely paying for their sin debt (especially IF they are
continuing to sin in the afterlife). They could eternally approach payment but never actually reach
complete payment.

We are just barely scratching the surface here on how it is the nature of "sin" (wickedness) to be
eternal and NOT finite. We are all (all humans and angels) eternal beings...which means we will
exist forever. We as humans are created in the Image of God (not physical image but rather
spiritual and conscious Image of God) and we are eternally going to exist in some form forever.
Most will "exist" in the afterlife and receive consequences... while others will have "life" in the
afterlife and receive rewards by God's incredible (unobligated) unfathomable GRACE/mercy.

So there are multiple reasons here involving both "separation" of an eternal being who is tainted
AND "punishment" for exact actions which can not be wrongfully lumped together as though there
is not distinction between separation and unequal punishment.

Good question.... even if the answer is not what any of us want to hear.
 
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Breckmin

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IOW, I wish God could save "everybody." But if everybody gets saved then no one really gets saved because the word "saved" would be completely meaningless... since there would be no "opposite condition" from which to be actually saved "from."

It would just be inevitable fate.... that everyone ends up back with God with no guarantee of their gratefulness
or loyalty TO God in eternity... or the logic of them never sinning again (abusing their freewill).

There would be no contrast to demonstrate the meaningfulness of forgiveness.... or the gift of reconciliation, etc.

With inevitable fate...these concepts (as well as the meaningfulness/specialty of a "gift") would be non-existent.

Someone HAS to go to eternal hell to make the consequences a reality...(and meaningful in eternity)if satan can go...
so can any other angel/demon. If satan/fallen angels/demons can go to eternal hell, then why not guilty humans?

If one person can go... and one person is so infinitely/unfathomably tragic for the individual to receive justice...
then why not 2 people? Why not 10 people? Who is to say "who" are to be the 10 or the 1?

It is ABSOLUTELY NO worse for 50 billion guilty people to go to eternal justice than it is for 1 evil angel (satan)
to go to eternal justice. For one, there is nothing wrong with perfect justice.... and two - if someone has to
demonstrate the eternal consequences of wickedness...and thereby put God's perfect justice on display in suffering
the consequences of their objective guilt of God's law... then why can't 50 billion?

There is a rightness to justice which is often ignored... because eternal separation and perfect justice for
wickedness is unfathomable to us and our carnal minds. Question everything!
 
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quatona

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IOW, I wish God could save "everybody." But if everybody gets saved then no one really gets saved because the word "saved" would be completely meaningless...
...and, of course, God´s greatest goal is keeping human language meaningful.:doh:
since there would be no "opposite condition" from which to be actually saved "from."
So what?
 
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Breckmin

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...and, of course, God´s greatest goal is keeping human language meaningful.:doh:

So what?

That would bring back the potential for future evil and an abuse of freewill.

It's not about human language being meaningful...it is about concepts, truth and knowledge being
meaningful (for cognitive beings/creatures) to the point of allowing some to remain His children and
not end up losing one of "them" (the adopted children) in eternity. It is also much much more than
this one thing (you can't isolate one thing and wrongfully claim it is God's greatest goal) because
everything is connected to love's existence in eternity...and not hiding the truth...and the glory of
God, and the glory of Jesus Christ, and the glory of holy angels and the glory of those who share
in Jesus' glory through adoption...and the glory of grace and mercy, etc. You can never say..
it's all about one thing. That is wrongful isolation.... meaning isolating a premise which is
dependent and connected on other premises.... which can not be ignored (or you have the
state of ignoring...which is true ignorance).

Inevitable fate doesn't remove the potential the way that loyalty and relationship does.
 
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Breckmin

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Ok, i have no idea why to call that "symmetrical" of all adjectives, but ok.

Eternal life vs. eternal death/separation

Eternal fellowship and reward(s) vs eternal disfellowship and consequences for exact actions.

grace/mercy vs. perfect justice (which is unfathomable for the guilty wicked sinner because of the Perfection of God)

Joy vs. despair (from receiving perfect justice)

fellowship vs. possible isolation (in hell everyone is in trouble... it is not demons tormenting you...because they
are in trouble and in a type of isolation too).

adopted children out of disobedient slaves may not seem symmetrical because of only millions vs. billions but
the symmetry is related to contrast... the numbers are both finite so mathematically in comparison to infinity
the numbers are inconsequential.

Perfect eternal justice vs. incredible amazing grace (for both groups of guilty cognitive beings) is where some
of the symmetry comes in... yet with holy angels... these were never guilty but yet because of their circumstances
they are called God's elect (chosen) angels.

You might argue that "chosen" vs. "non-chosen" (past over/allowed to perish/allowed to become guilty
and receive justice) is somehow "unfair" (but your philosophical problem is that you are just claiming that
it is not 'equal').

There is no such thing as equal circumstances in this universe...so such an appeal to "equality" is
appealing to something which is non-existent. No two people have equal circumstances... The
theological law of unfairness deals with equality only...not justice. The law of perfect justice and
the law of unfairness go hand in hand...the former addressing justice and allowing mercy whereas
the latter addresses the absolute reality of unequal circumstances for everyone.

You can never appeal to having equal circumstances... it doesn't exist in this universe and it
never has. The closest thing was holy angels in the beginning...but even they had different
circumstances based on their relationships. Freewill changes everything. Question everything.
 
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