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Arminians: What happened to gentiles before the time of Christ?

Discussion in 'Soteriology DEBATE' started by abacabb3, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    What else does Romans 10:12-14 say? I'm totally serious.
     
  2. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Saint Paul's conversion proves otherwise.

    A call to preach the word is just that - an encouragement to do what should be the desire anyway. You cannot draw the conclusion that you are. You would need an explicit assertion that those who never hear would be without access to salvation. If we follow your logic, then a Gentile might be damned because they died a nano second the wrong side of this supposed 'watershed'.

    Isn't this another case of 'nimbyism'. As long as someone else, or some other group of people are put beyond the scope of salvation, then it's okay with me? No matter that God's good character is trashed in the process and droves of would-be believers turn away in disgust.

    How do you reconcile your view with the scriptural God of love? John 3:16 does not sit with such a view. God so loved loved the world that he consigned all OT Gentiles (barring a few) to hell without hope? It would seem then that such a verse is just a disingenuous token gesture.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  3. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    Wait, wait, wait...don't go off in three different directions. What does Romans 10:12-14 even mean if people must be preached to about the true God to be saved?

    If you cannot answer that in light of what that Scripture actually says, the conversation is over.
     
  4. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    The responses to the “gospel” includes: hearing, believing, confessing, repenting and being baptized, which a baby cannot do, so are all babies hell bound if they die?

    It is not that there is “ambiguity”, but there is context. Jesus is speaking to adult Jews on this occasion and most other occasions He speaks, so that does not mean everything Jesus said to them applies to every person that was ever conceived.

    Jesus can tell a group of adult Jews: “If you do not believe in ME then you will surely die in your sins”, but that does not mean it applies to all people that will never have the opportunity to believe in Jesus.



    Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Ro. 1: 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;

    Ro. 2: 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

    Ro. 2: 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

    Ro. 5: 13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

    Acts17: 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,
     
  5. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Yes, after the Pentecost it was the same for: mature adult Jews and mature adult Gentiles, but that does not address immature Jews and Gentiles.

    Since babies especially those not born yet cannot; “call on the name of the Lord”, are all babies hell bound if they die, since: “…how will they hear without a preacher?”

    Paul is writing to a group of mature adults.
     
  6. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    Does Paul make any distinction between mature and immature, or did you just make it up?

    To answer your question, I believe that it is consistent with Scripture that all people, no matter time they were born, where they were born, or their respective age cannot be saved apart from God's grace available to us through faith in Jesus Christ.
     
  7. Do you know all the ways that God's grace can save a person?

    Is it possible to serve Jesus without knowing you are serving him?
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    It is you; who assumes it applies to more than those Paul is addressing. If you make that same assumption throughout scripture Matt 10: These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans”. Does this make Jesus out to be a hypocrite?

    Does that seem just and fair to you?

    Does God not follow the Bible examples of justice and fairness?
     
  9. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    Not possible, preaching and knowledge of Christ is necessary according to Romans 10:12-14.
     
  10. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    I responded and you have ignored what I said.
     
  11. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Either remove this or you will be reported.
     
  12. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    You did not answer my question. Does Paul make that distinction? No. Is there anything at all in the context that leads us to make a distinction? No.

    Now when Christ says that commandment, we do have contextual clues of that command being limited for a period of time, namely "go and preach to all nations."

    An inerrant view of Scripture requires an internally consistent interpretation of all ideas. So, reading Romans 10:12-14 the plainer and obvious way, it doesn't contradict anything else in Scripture and there is nothing compelling within the context of what actually is said to take another explanation, other than you being uncomfortable with the anti-universalist ramifications.

    All men deserve condemnation, the only unfair part is that anyone is given forgiveness at all.

    Before the time of Christ, God chose only one people in which to make Himself known, and that is Israel. Is that fair to you? Because, it was fair to God.
     
  13. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    No, you actually ignored Romans 10:12-14. You need to respond to the point actually given, or by any other action you betray how intellectually bankrupt your position actually is.
     
  14. That passage says nothing about who will not be saved.

    The sheep in Matt 25 didn't even know they were serving him.

    Also, Paul tells us this:

    1 Tim 4:10
    That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

    And Peter this:

    Acts 10
    34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
     
  15. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    The verses encourage believers to preach the gospel. There is no explicit statement to the effect that a man will be damned if they do not have the gospel preached to them by another human being.

    Paul got converted without such occurring.
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Paul also gets right to who gets saved in 2 Tim 2 and it is for them that Paul labors, Paul labors for the elect, not all of the world.


    Paul recognizes it is the elect who obtain salvation. So why dont you?
     
  17. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Where is your proof that God did not speak to others?
     
  18. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    I did. You ignored it.
     
  19. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    GOD says so,
    Do you deny it?

    Amos 3
    There was Baalam the mad prophet that God destroyed, But God did send His angel to talk to Baalam.
    Regarding salvation though is what is most important, not whether God spoke to some gentile person..
     
  20. Salvation comes from Jesus, but that is not the question. Must a person know the gospel to be touched by and respond to God's grace?

    Not according to scripture.

    The elect are those who respond to God's grace.
     
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