Arminians: What happened to gentiles before the time of Christ?

[abacabb3]

They won't....Are you saying that all those who never heard of Jesus go to hell, even if they cooperated with God's grace as they understood it?

Unless shown otherwise from the Scripture, I believe so. Knowing Jesus Christ is God's grace. What can compare to it?

 

[abacabb3]

If men cannot exercise faith without being regenerated by God first, then there is nothing to be pleased about. Tell me what exactly could God be pleased about? Pleased that what was going to happen, happened? Unless something was overcome, then there can be no celebration....Actually, it confirms that God does speak to men which can result in conversion, and this occurred in the OT to non-Israelites.

Jan, I say this out of all love, but do you realize how you're veering off somewhere totally else? If you honestly want answers to these questions, PM me.

 

[sdowney717]

They won't.


Are you saying that all those who never heard of Jesus go to hell, even if they cooperated with God's grace as they understood it?

Pure antichrist there to suggest there is any other way to God except by Christ.
Yes all those who never hear the gospel will go to hell.

Your post is what Pagans believe.
Christians should know the truth.
But not all are real Christians.

11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’

12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

And if that is not good enough then argue against this.
John 3

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned;

but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[janxharris]

Jan, I say this out of all love, but do you realize how you're veering off somewhere totally else? If you honestly want answers to these questions, PM me.

My post relates directly to the OP. Obviously, Noah was a non-Israelite and God spoke to him. We cannot know how many other non-Israelites God spoke to. Your suggestion:

So, can we all agree that all the gentiles before the time of Jesus essentially are going to hell? What other conclusion can we draw?

is false.

Essentially, you are saying that a Gentile who died a few seconds the wrong side of this 'watershed' (having the chance to hear the gospel preached) would be eternally damned. Perhaps you should make this supposed 'fact' regarding the nature of God part of the Gospel you preach. After all, you wouldn't want unbelievers to be ignorant of God's character would you?

Reductio ad absurdum.

 

[janxharris]

Pure antichrist there to suggest there is any other way to God except by Christ.
Yes all those who never hear the gospel will go to hell.

You seem to have a complete knowledge of the the spiritual experiences of every person that has ever lived.

Please present it.

Also, you should read the CF rules because you continue to break them.

 

[janxharris]

Granted, there are specific situations where God shows His mercy on gentiles, but what you posit is that there are stories of God's grace to the gentiles that are not recorded in the Scripture and that these gentiles are saved somehow. However, based on Scripture, how can we come to this conclusion? We have no indication of this.

Based on what scripture should we discount the possibility that God spoke to non-Israelites and that such occasions are were not recorded in scripture?

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

 

[abacabb3]

Based on what scripture should we discount the possibility that God spoke to non-Israelites and that such occasions are were not recorded in scripture?

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

You're not applying Scripture appropriately here.

 

[abacabb3]

My post relates directly to the OP.

Actually, it really doesn't and it is sad you don't realize that.

Obviously, Noah was a non-Israelite and God spoke to him. We cannot know how many other non-Israelites God spoke to.

Isn't the Bible sufficient to us to answer such a question? If we base our religion of pure speculation that God must've spoke to other people and said other stuff not in Scripture, then on what authority do you even base the Christian religion?

Essentially, you are saying that a Gentile who died a few seconds the wrong side of this 'watershed' (having the chance to hear the gospel preached) would be eternally damned.

Show from the Scripture, and not from plain speculation, how this is wrong without contradicting Scripture.

 

[sdowney717]

Death REIGNED from Adam to Moses!!!!!!

Yes, there were some who received favor from God during that time, their names are mention in scripture. But for most all, they were dead even while they lived, lived their life, died and went to hell. However, hell back then was split in two, the fiery torments for the unrighteous dead, where most went, and the place of Paradise Jesus described as Abraham's bosom. Abraham came before Moses and demonstrated righteousness by faith of those whom God had called and chosen to reveal Himself. Abraham was called of God, Noah found favor with God, Enoch walked with God. Scripture though is clear that
Death Reigned until Moses and the covenant of the Law. But those who went to Abraham's bosom were called of God as He had chosen to reveal Himself to them even back then!

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Going way way back we read that in Gen 4, men began to call on the Name of the Lord.

The family of Cain who were of the devil are in stark contrast to the family of Seth who began to call on His name.
Even Eve acknowledge and thanked God that with God's help she had gotten herself a new son.

16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad; and Irad begot Mehujael, and Mehujael begot Methushael, and Methushael begot Lamech.

19 Then Lamech took for himself two wives: the name of one was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah. 20 And Adah bore Jabal. He was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal. He was the father of all those who play the harp and flute. 22 And as for Zillah, she also bore Tubal-Cain, an instructor of every craftsman in bronze and iron. And the sister of Tubal-Cain was Naamah.

23 Then Lamech said to his wives:

“Adah and Zillah, hear my voice;
Wives of Lamech, listen to my speech!
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
Even a young man for hurting me.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”

A New Son

25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.” 26 And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh. Then men began to call on the name of the Lord.

Even so almost all went to hell, except for Enoch and Elijah who God took. So you cant say all went to hell, but only Enoch and Elijah are mentioned by name. Abraham also went to hell but was in Paradise which was a part of hell, hell being split in two with fire on one side and Paradise on the other.

PARADISE

While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham’s Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25). As we mentioned before, Tartarus may be a specific place in Sheol/Hades.

We know that Jesus Christ went “into the lower parts of the earth” (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, “in the heart of the earth,” for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham’s Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham’s Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took “captivity captive” (see Eph. 4:8-10).

https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/hell-sheol-hades-paradise-and-the-grave/

 

[bling]

Let's try hard to maintain a positive dialogue.

I feel that is what I am doing.

You are adding the word "mature," but that aside being that everyone on Earth fro all time was either a Jew or a gentile, then you would agree that Romans 10:12-14 does apply to all Jews and Gentiles?

Paul writes to people that can understand, both Jews and Gentiles and specifically in Romans it is written to Jew and Gentile Christians (you have to be a mature adult to make the commitment to be a Christian).

Again, I think you are adding to the Scripture, but children aside, are full grown men that never heard about Christ not "mature" to you?

There are definitely mental challenged individuals that never mature. I think people mature at different ages partly due to their environment. God would determine the maturity of people not me.

Who is in a "safe" condition that Adam and Ever supposedly were?

Those that through no fault of their own have not had the opportunity to accept God’s help in the form of forgiveness.

To be honest, such a position is in my mind clearly heresy and contradicts the preponderance of Scripture, but let me put my opinions aside and ask you this: What benefit is there to knowing about Christ? It seems to me by preaching His name we make people now liable for their sins by your theology, so instead of bringing a blessing we bring a curse.

Scripture tells us God is our Father, He is merciful, Loving, gracious, fair and just beyond measure, so any interpretation of scripture has to take into consideration: who God is.

Your question: “What benefit is there to knowing about Christ?”

The whole reason man spends time on this earth is to possible fulfill man’s earthly objective which cannot be fulfilled in heaven. Willing individuals can fulfill this objective, they just have to want to fulfill it.

There are people throughout the world that want to or would want to fulfill their objective if they knew about it, so God has given us the privilege and honor of living through us and presenting the gospel to these individuals. If we do not allow God to live through us presenting the gospel to those that do not know yet would be willing to accept, than they would go on to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective and thus not have Godly type Love in heaven, but only a wonderful child for parent type love.

Seriously reconsider your thoughts about this, as it would totally undo the Great Commission and the whole Christian religion.

What benefit is there to your “preaching” to other people that are the elect, since they are heaven bound anyway?

If everyone on Earth who has ever lived, apart from Christ, has sinned against God and deserves damnation, isn't it a great act of unimaginable love if anyone is given mercy at all?

God has unlimited amounts of Godly type Love, so to limit God’s mercy to a few is unimaginable and not the God we know.

Is your God powerful enough to provide a free will choice to all mature adult individuals?

Does your God love enough to provide a free will choice to all mature humans, if that free will choice enables at least some of those humans to be gifted with the greatest gifts possible including a Love like God himself has that would make those humans like God himself?

The problem is most humans given the free will choice will chose to be selfish, maintain their false pride, and not humble themselves to the point of accepting pure charity. This is very sad, but it is their choice and that real option has to remain in order to be a real choice.

God's love is so great, it is great enough to help those not willing to accept His help. That once was me.

So you never had to humble yourself to accept God’s charity?
God certainly want to help everyone (they are His children) but to force His Love on them (like you are suggesting) would neither be “loving” on God’s part nor would the Love they got be truly Godly type Love, but more of an instinctive (robotic) type love.
Would you have God holding the shotgun at this shotgun wedding where the bride was Love?
The soldier, that surrenders, does not really want to give anything good to his enemy, but is just willing to accept the charity of his enemy.
Sinful man does not have Godly type Love and thus can do nothing of “value”(1 Cor. 13: 1-4), but can he just wimp out, surrender to his enemy (God [who is still his enemy when he surrenders]), give up and accept God’s Love?

Please tell me what Romans 10:12-14 actually means and if you take something other than the explain explanation, show from the context of the chapter or other Scripture how it means something different, please.

Ro. 10: 9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. 13 For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?

This comes in the middle of Paul’s teaching in chps. 9-11 concerning Jews and Gentile Christians and becoming Christians. There is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles even though the Jews were given a privilege initial position and responsibility of being the “chosen” people from whom Christ would come. The Jews were very much prepped for the Messiah, but had just as much issue accepting Jesus as the Gentiles did even though the Gentile were not prepped and had different issues in accepting Christianity.

Paul does not explain what immature humans should/could do, so Paul is not addressing immature humans. If you say: “Paul is addressing all humans from conception on” then all immature humans through no fault of their own are condemned to hell if they die in that state, which is not just nor fair and is certainly not the Father we know.

What is he saved from if he is saved from if he does not know Christ?

Some like Adam and Eve before they sinned are in a safe condition not needing to be saved.

God can save any people from hell He wants to save. God would not save people that have repeatedly refused and would never accept God’s help (Love/mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness). These individuals do not like or want Godly type Love (Charity), so would not even be happy in heaven where there is only Godly type love and one huge Love feast.

How do we get forgiveness?

You humbly want to accept the Creator’s forgiveness.

Because Gentiles who did not know the name of God could not call upon His name and be saved.

Nineveh did, so why could others not?

God tells the Israelites that they are His special people. he chose them out of all the people's of the Earth. DO you think it is unfair that God would love His chosen people more?

There is no problem with God loving His chosen people, but do you have a problem with God Loving other people also?

These people were chosen for a very special purpose (to be the nation that would bring Christ into the world and be prepared for the starting of the Kingdom on earth. If you look are the history of this group of “chosen” people you see a ton of problems and not much in the way of being what they were called to be. Being special can be great, but it also carries with it a great deal of responsibility which the jews for the most part did not fulfill. As Paul will point out in Romans 9-11 and all of Romans, it really does not make any difference in the long run (with what really counts [individual salvation]) whether you were born Jew or gentile.