Arminians: What happened to gentiles before the time of Christ?

[sdowney717]

SO, is anyone saved by their works, such as gentiles before the time of Christ?

No, no one is saved by works.
People are only saved by faith.

 

[sdowney717]

That's not what the bible says. You are adding words to scripture.

We needs God's grace to turn to him, but he won't stop us from walking away.

We must endure to be saved.

How so , I am not adding, your taking away from Christ's work.
To be justified outside of Christ is a slap in His face.

Sorry, but Jesus said, 'No one comes to the Father except by Me'

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Jesus said if you then being evil know how to give good gifts...
Luke 11
13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children

, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

 

[catholichomeschooler]

How so , I am not adding, your taking away from Christ's work.
To be justified outside of Christ is a slap in His face.
Sorry but
Sorry, but Jesus said, 'No one comes to the Father except by Me'

I agree that we can't come to the Father without the grace of Jesus.

What does that have to do with this discussion?

You claimed that:

Those who persist in doing good are those who are of the faith of Jesus Christ.



That's not what the passage says:

Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

 

[sdowney717]

I agree that we can't come to the Father without the grace of Jesus.

What does that have to do with this discussion?

You claimed that:

Those who persist in doing good are those who are of the faith of Jesus Christ.



That's not what the passage says:

Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

Your missing it badly here...

first part of v7 -- must be saved believers, because what Paul writes further along of those 'who reject the truth'/ Persons are being contrasted here, those who believe the truth and those who reject the truth.
The ones who are doing good things are believers who do not reject the truth. As opposed to unbelievers who reject the truth and are evil.

 

[abacabb3]

We don't know the mind of God or the depths of the mercy of Jesus.

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.


Note that in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, the righteous didn't even know they were serving Jesus, but they were.

So, your position is that it is likely that gentiles before the time of Christ were saved? And if so, on what basis?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

So, your position is that it is likely that gentiles before the time of Christ were saved? And if so, on what basis?

I believe they will be judged based on the extent to which the followed God's grace. That's what the bible tells us.

Romans 2
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Your missing it badly here...

first part of v7 -- must be saved believers, because what Paul writes further along of those 'who reject the truth'/ Persons are being contrasted here, those who believe the truth and those who reject the truth.
The ones who are doing good things are believers who do not reject the truth. As opposed to unbelievers who reject the truth and are evil.

Look all the words you must add to scripture in order to make it conform to your dogma!! Doesn't that bother you? Why can't you accept what it says?

 

[sdowney717]

Look all the words you must add to scripture in order to make it conform to your dogma!! Doesn't that bother you? Why can't you accept what it says?

Actually you prefer to believe something else.
By works of the law will no man be justified.
The law written on the gentiles hearts. By nature gentiles do the things of the law, written on their hearts, condemnation not justification is the result.

Your suggesting a justification by works of the law which is an evil thing to say, an Antichrist thing to say.

 

[abacabb3]

Of course. We can't please God without his grace, but we must cooperate with this free gift to be saved.

His grace reaches out to all men. Do you think all men will be saved?

Not the same grace is available to all men, several Catholic Saints have made clear that there is a "general call" to all men and an "effectual call" to those part of His Church.

We indeed see it happen that the grace of the Saviour
passes by some men and that the prayers of the Church
in their favour are not heard. This must be ascribed
to the secret judgments of divine justice. We must
acknowledge that we cannot understand this profound
mystery in this life. (Prosper of Aquataine, Call of the Nations, Book 1 Chap 13)

 

[abacabb3]

No, no one is saved by works.
People are only saved by faith.

So, did God pass over the gentiles by not giving them the opportunity to have faith?

 

[sdowney717]

Lets keep reading the very same passage.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Men are to be judged by the gospel, what they believed and were obedient to the gospel.

Those who sinned without the law will PERISH.
'Their thoughts excusing themselves', is no justification with God, they refuse to accept personal responsibility for their evil deeds, and will think to excuse themselves to God's face.

 

[abacabb3]

I believe they will be judged based on the extent to which the followed God's grace. That's what the bible tells us.

TO what extent, if any, can they cooperate with God's grace if God showed His grace only to the people of Israel?

 

[sdowney717]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

In Romans 1, there are persons mentioned who suppress the truth. It is of such people who seek to establish their own righteous good deeds as justification for entrance in to the kingdom of Heaven. All those who suggest persons can get to God's heaven outside of being justified by faith of Jesus Christ are Antichrist, evil, and being led away by demonic doctrines.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Lets keep reading the very same passage.



Men are to be judged by the gospel, what they believed and were obedient to the gospel.

Those who sinned without the law will PERISH.
'Their thoughts excusing themselves', is no justification with God, they refuse to accept personal responsibility for their evil deeds, and will think to excuse themselves to God's face.

There is a difference between obedience to Jesus and following the Jewish Law.

Do you agree?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Lets keep reading the very same passage.



Men are to be judged by the gospel, what they believed and were obedient to the gospel.

Those who sinned without the law will PERISH.
'Their thoughts excusing themselves', is no justification with God, they refuse to accept personal responsibility for their evil deeds, and will think to excuse themselves to God's face.

Gal 6
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[sdowney717]

Gal 6
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Wow, well who is Paul addressing? Believers in Jesus Christ.

Your appropriating this and applying it to unbelieving gentiles who are without hope and without God in this world. They are the one reaping destruction because they sowed to the flesh.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

TO what extent, if any, can they cooperate with God's grace if God showed His grace only to the people of Israel?

The bible tells us that God's grace reaches out to ALL men.

ISA 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."


Do you believe God condemns people who have never heard the gospel?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Wow, well who is Paul addressing? Believers in Jesus Christ.

Your appropriating this and applying it to unbelieving gentiles who are without hope and without God in this world.

Yes, believers also will reap destruction if that is what they sow.

You are making my case for me.

 

[sdowney717]

A very good applicable verse to this discussion, notice what it says they are without hope and without God, Who?
unbelieving gentiles.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—

12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Who can dare deny exactly what this is saying?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

A very good applicable verse to this discussion, notice what it says they are without hope and without God, Who?
unbelieving gentiles.



Who can dare deny exactly what this is saying?

Was Noah a God-fearing man? Yes

Was he circumcised? What he part of the Covenant with Abraham? No.


Was Rahab a Jew?

How about Ruth?