Arminians: What happened to gentiles before the time of Christ?

[sdowney717]

Yes, believers also will reap destruction if that is what they sow.

You are making my case for me.

Nope, your not well taught in God's grace.
Paul teaches specifically this in Romans 8

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Your also saying Christians can lose their salvation. Paul teaches the opposite in all of Romans 8.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Nope, your not well taught in God's grace.
Paul teaches specifically this in Romans 8

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Your also saying Christians can lose their salvation. Paul teaches the opposite in all of Romans 8.

If Christ is in you. Exactly!! But sin can separate us from Christ. He won't leave us, but we can leave him.


2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

 

[abacabb3]

The bible tells us that God's grace reaches out to ALL men.

So, if grace reaches all men by default, why do they need faith in Christ to be saved?

Do you believe God condemns people who have never heard the gospel?

God condemns those who by the Law, or by their own conscience as they are a law onto themselves, that have violated it. Faith in Christ is only thing that pays the penalty for violating the Law. God has bound up all to disobedience so He may show mercy on all.

If someone does not have faith in Christ, then he dies in his own sins.

 

[sdowney717]

So, if grace reaches all men by default, why do they need faith in Christ to be saved?


God condemns those who by the Law, or by their own conscience as they are a law onto themselves, that have violated it. Faith in Christ is only thing that pays the penalty for violating the Law. God has bound up all to disobedience so He may show mercy on all.

If someone does not have faith in Christ, then he dies in his own sins.

yes. it is up to God to show mercy or not show mercy.
Our being saved is not dependent on man who wills or man who runs the race.
The pure truth of the gospel must be preserved because wicked and evil forces want to corrupt that in people's minds.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I mean, how much clearer does God have to tell us what He does than what He says He does?

 

[abacabb3]

I think the problem we see here is that it is being asserted that people who do not know Christ can be saved. That is the position being put forth here. This is not what the Bible says, nor the testimony of the early Catholic church either.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

I think the problem we see here is that it is being asserted that people who do not know Christ can be saved. That is the position being put forth here. This is not what the Bible says, nor the testimony of the early Catholic church either.

You are mistaken. The bible says that it is only through Christ that a man will be saved. The bible doesn't say that if you don't know Christ you will not be saved.

We don't know how God's grace works in every situation. You are on dangerous ground if you claim to know who will be saved. That is God's choice.


FYI:


1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Romans 2
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.


Also, those sheep saved in Matt 25 didn't even know they were serving Jesus, but they were.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

I mean, how much clearer does God have to tell us what He does than what He says He does?

What does God say?

1 Tim 2
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Eze 33
18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19"But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.

Eze 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

 

[sdowney717]

I think the problem we see here is that it is being asserted that people who do not know Christ can be saved. That is the position being put forth here. This is not what the Bible says, nor the testimony of the early Catholic church either.

Yes, such a position is AntiChrist.
As Jesus says, no one comes to the Father but by ME.

When you say heaven's door is open to all depending upon the 'good works' that unsaved people who God testifies are evil do, (God says of the world there are none that do good, none that seek God, none that seek to do right) then that is a demonic evil doctrine. If that was true, then Christ' purpose was void.

Christ was also with the wilderness wanderers of the OT, for they all drank from the Spiritual Rock, and that Rock was Christ.
1 Cor 10

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”[a] 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

People in the OT either had a covenant relationship with God and were spiritually 'of Israel', or they were of the people of the world.

Paul teaches this in Romans 9

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]

This passage gets twisted a lot to fit into person's theology, but it means exactly what it says.

There were people who God saved in the gentile world, they were joined into the congregation of Israel. That was written into the Law and also confirmed by God in Isaiah.

Isaiah 56

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them[a] an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

After they entered the promised land, the only lawful sacrifices to the Lord in the OT were to be done in Jerusalem. They had to travel there and if they did not do so but offered sacrifice somewhere else God said that was evil. Which you can read that Jeroboam 1 Kings 12 did setting up another alter with golden calves.

 

[Skala]

Of course. We can't please God without his grace, but we must cooperate with this free gift to be saved.

His grace reaches out to all men. Do you think all men will be saved?

So we can credit both ourselves and God's grace?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

So we can credit both ourselves and God's grace?

Without God's grace we cannot be saved.

However, God's grace reaches out to all men. I don't believe all men will be saved, do you?

Is this God's fault, or the fault of those who refuse to cooperate with God's grace?


1 Tim 2
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Eze 33
18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19"But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.

Eze 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

 

[bling]

So, if you don't know Christ you are judged by works?

God always looks at the heart of the individual, but what is on the heart of the person can be seen in his "works".

Also “work” in the spiritual realm is believe, John 6: 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[abacabb3]

You are mistaken. The bible says that it is only through Christ that a man will be saved. The bible doesn't say that if you don't know Christ you will not be saved.

We don't know how God's grace works in every situation. You are on dangerous ground if you claim to know who will be saved. That is God's choice.

Are you aware the fathers of the church disagreed with this understanding?

Further, what benefit is there to know Chirst if you can be saved apart from know Him?

 

[abacabb3]

God always looks at the heart of the individual, but what is on the heart of the person can be seen in his "works".

Also “work” in the spiritual realm is believe, John 6: 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Can anyone's works please God apart from them knowing Christ?

 

[bling]

Can anyone's works please God apart from them knowing Christ?

Deity includes Christ, so Christ has been around since Adam and is thought to have been the being that walked with Adam in the cool of the day.

Believe/faith/trust in a benevolent creator to the point of humbly accepting Deity’s help has been rewarded with God’s help.

 

[abacabb3]

Deity includes Christ, so Christ has been around since Adam and is thought to have been the being that walked with Adam in the cool of the day.

Believe/faith/trust in a benevolent creator to the point of humbly accepting Deity’s help has been rewarded with God’s help.

So, has anyone done this without having Christ preached to them?

 

[bling]

So, has anyone done this without having Christ preached to them?

The Bible does not talk about nor does it need to talk about the salvation of those that never hear about Christ. We do have a few words:

Ro. 2: 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

The person’s conscience does not spell out Jesus the person and the Bible does not say they were preached to, but his conscience does point him toward a Loving Creator which is also a description of Jesus. God judges the secrets in man’s heart.

God is loving, just and fair and we are all children of God, so he will do what is fair and just for us.

 

[sdowney717]

The Bible does not talk about nor does it need to talk about the salvation of those that never hear about Christ. We do have a few words:

Ro. 2: 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

The person’s conscience does not spell out Jesus the person and the Bible does not say they were preached to, but his conscience does point him toward a Loving Creator which is also a description of Jesus. God judges the secrets in man’s heart.

God is loving, just and fair and we are all children of God, so he will do what is fair and just for us.

"on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus"

Jesus preached, repent, believe in Me, in truth that 'I AM HE'

And If you do not beleive in ME then you will surely die in your sins.

So the gospel of Jesus Christ whereby God will judge all men is clear that believers in Him have eternal life, and unbelievers do not.

there is ZERO ambiguity about this, so to say otherwise is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

 

[abacabb3]

The Bible does not talk about nor does it need to talk about the salvation of those that never hear about Christ.

Actually, it does:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:12-14)

It's the same for both Jew ad Greek. If you don't call upon the name of the Lord, you are not saved. If no one preaches to you, you will not know of the only true God in whom to call upon.

So, quite definitively, we know all who have not heard of Christ or whom have rejected preaching of Him are not saved. It's pretty simple, and without contradicting the Scripture, it is the only conclusion we can draw.

 

[abacabb3]

So, can we all agree that all the gentiles before the time of Jesus essentially are going to hell? What other conclusion can we draw?

 

[janxharris]

So, can we all agree that all the gentiles before the time of Jesus essentially are going to hell? What other conclusion can we draw?

Tell me you are not serious.