Arminians: What happened to gentiles before the time of Christ?

[abacabb3]

Tell me you are not serious.

What else does Romans 10:12-14 say? I'm totally serious.

 

[janxharris]

What else does Romans 10:12-14 say? I'm totally serious.

Saint Paul's conversion proves otherwise.

A call to preach the word is just that - an encouragement to do what should be the desire anyway. You cannot draw the conclusion that you are. You would need an explicit assertion that those who never hear would be without access to salvation. If we follow your logic, then a Gentile might be damned because they died a nano second the wrong side of this supposed 'watershed'.

Isn't this another case of 'nimbyism'. As long as someone else, or some other group of people are put beyond the scope of salvation, then it's okay with me? No matter that God's good character is trashed in the process and droves of would-be believers turn away in disgust.

How do you reconcile your view with the scriptural God of love? John 3:16 does not sit with such a view. God so loved loved the world that he consigned all OT Gentiles (barring a few) to hell without hope? It would seem then that such a verse is just a disingenuous token gesture.

 

[abacabb3]

Wait, wait, wait...don't go off in three different directions. What does Romans 10:12-14 even mean if people must be preached to about the true God to be saved?

If you cannot answer that in light of what that Scripture actually says, the conversation is over.

 

[bling]

"on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus"

Jesus preached, repent, believe in Me, in truth that 'I AM HE'

And If you do not beleive in ME then you will surely die in your sins.

So the gospel of Jesus Christ whereby God will judge all men is clear that believers in Him have eternal life, and unbelievers do not.

there is ZERO ambiguity about this, so to say otherwise is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

The responses to the “gospel” includes: hearing, believing, confessing, repenting and being baptized, which a baby cannot do, so are all babies hell bound if they die?

It is not that there is “ambiguity”, but there is context. Jesus is speaking to adult Jews on this occasion and most other occasions He speaks, so that does not mean everything Jesus said to them applies to every person that was ever conceived.

Jesus can tell a group of adult Jews: “If you do not believe in ME then you will surely die in your sins”, but that does not mean it applies to all people that will never have the opportunity to believe in Jesus.



Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ro. 1: 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;

Ro. 2: 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Ro. 2: 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Ro. 5: 13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

Acts17: 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,

 

[bling]

Actually, it does:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:12-14)

It's the same for both Jew ad Greek. If you don't call upon the name of the Lord, you are not saved. If no one preaches to you, you will not know of the only true God in whom to call upon.

So, quite definitively, we know all who have not heard of Christ or whom have rejected preaching of Him are not saved. It's pretty simple, and without contradicting the Scripture, it is the only conclusion we can draw.

Yes, after the Pentecost it was the same for: mature adult Jews and mature adult Gentiles, but that does not address immature Jews and Gentiles.

Since babies especially those not born yet cannot; “call on the name of the Lord”, are all babies hell bound if they die, since: “…how will they hear without a preacher?”

Paul is writing to a group of mature adults.

 

[abacabb3]

Yes, after the Pentecost it was the same for: mature adult Jews and mature adult Gentiles, but that does not address immature Jews and Gentiles.

Since babies especially those not born yet cannot; “call on the name of the Lord”, are all babies hell bound if they die, since: “…how will they hear without a preacher?”

Paul is writing to a group of mature adults.

Does Paul make any distinction between mature and immature, or did you just make it up?

To answer your question, I believe that it is consistent with Scripture that all people, no matter time they were born, where they were born, or their respective age cannot be saved apart from God's grace available to us through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Does Paul make any distinction between mature and immature, or did you just make it up?

To answer your question, I believe that it is consistent with Scripture that all people, no matter time they were born, where they were born, or their respective age cannot be saved apart from God's grace available to us through faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you know all the ways that God's grace can save a person?

Is it possible to serve Jesus without knowing you are serving him?

 

[bling]

Does Paul make any distinction between mature and immature, or did you just make it up?

It is you; who assumes it applies to more than those Paul is addressing. If you make that same assumption throughout scripture Matt 10: These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans”. Does this make Jesus out to be a hypocrite?

To answer your question, I believe that it is consistent with Scripture that all people, no matter time they were born, where they were born, or their respective age cannot be saved apart from God's grace available to us through faith in Jesus Christ.

Does that seem just and fair to you?

Does God not follow the Bible examples of justice and fairness?

 

[abacabb3]

Is it possible to serve Jesus without knowing you are serving him?

Not possible, preaching and knowledge of Christ is necessary according to Romans 10:12-14.

 

[janxharris]

Wait, wait, wait...don't go off in three different directions. What does Romans 10:12-14 even mean if people must be preached to about the true God to be saved?

If you cannot answer that in light of what that Scripture actually says, the conversation is over.

I responded and you have ignored what I said.

 

[janxharris]

The world through wisdom did not know God, so God chose the foolishness of preaching to save those who hear the message. Being able to hear in the inner man what God says gets people saved, God does not speak to all men, God only speaks the message that saves to those He has called.
1 Cor 1


Those who are not elect to salvation are just making up stories about God that turn into myths about what God has said. Their wisdom is of this earth and devilish, meant to deceive the simple minded.

Avoid Divisive Persons who are contrary to sound doctrine of grace
Romans 16

Either remove this or you will be reported.

 

[abacabb3]

It is you; who assumes it applies to more than those Paul is addressing. If you make that same assumption throughout scripture Matt 10: These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans”. Does this make Jesus out to be a hypocrite?

You did not answer my question. Does Paul make that distinction? No. Is there anything at all in the context that leads us to make a distinction? No.

Now when Christ says that commandment, we do have contextual clues of that command being limited for a period of time, namely "go and preach to all nations."

An inerrant view of Scripture requires an internally consistent interpretation of all ideas. So, reading Romans 10:12-14 the plainer and obvious way, it doesn't contradict anything else in Scripture and there is nothing compelling within the context of what actually is said to take another explanation, other than you being uncomfortable with the anti-universalist ramifications.

Does that seem just and fair to you?

All men deserve condemnation, the only unfair part is that anyone is given forgiveness at all.

Does God not follow the Bible examples of justice and fairness?

Before the time of Christ, God chose only one people in which to make Himself known, and that is Israel. Is that fair to you? Because, it was fair to God.

 

[abacabb3]

I responded and you have ignored what I said.

No, you actually ignored Romans 10:12-14. You need to respond to the point actually given, or by any other action you betray how intellectually bankrupt your position actually is.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Not possible, preaching and knowledge of Christ is necessary according to Romans 10:12-14.

That passage says nothing about who will not be saved.

The sheep in Matt 25 didn't even know they were serving him.

Also, Paul tells us this:

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

And Peter this:

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

 

[janxharris]

Not possible, preaching and knowledge of Christ is necessary according to Romans 10:12-14.

The verses encourage believers to preach the gospel. There is no explicit statement to the effect that a man will be damned if they do not have the gospel preached to them by another human being.

Paul got converted without such occurring.

 

[sdowney717]

That passage says nothing about who will not be saved.

The sheep in Matt 25 didn't even know they were serving him.

Also, Paul tells us this:

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

And Peter this:

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Paul also gets right to who gets saved in 2 Tim 2 and it is for them that Paul labors, Paul labors for the elect, not all of the world.

7 Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things.

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul recognizes it is the elect who obtain salvation. So why dont you?

 

[janxharris]

Before the time of Christ, God chose only one people in which to make Himself known, and that is Israel. Is that fair to you? Because, it was fair to God.

Where is your proof that God did not speak to others?

 

[janxharris]

No, you actually ignored Romans 10:12-14. You need to respond to the point actually given, or by any other action you betray how intellectually bankrupt your position actually is.

I did. You ignored it.

 

[sdowney717]

Where is your proof that God did not speak to others?

GOD says so,
Do you deny it?

Amos 3

Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:

2 “You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”

There was Baalam the mad prophet that God destroyed, But God did send His angel to talk to Baalam.
Regarding salvation though is what is most important, not whether God spoke to some gentile person..

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Paul also gets right to who gets saved in 2 Tim 2 and it is for them that Paul labors, Paul labors for the elect, not all of the world.


Paul recognizes it is the elect who obtain salvation. So why dont you?

Salvation comes from Jesus, but that is not the question. Must a person know the gospel to be touched by and respond to God's grace?

Not according to scripture.

The elect are those who respond to God's grace.