Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[LastSeven]

What do think Isaiah 9:5 means?

Not sure if your question was directed at me, but this entire passage speaks of Christ's victory over sin, and it uses the imagery of a physical battle to depict the spiritual battle that was. The precise verse you speak of indicates that the battle is over and we won't be needing our uniforms ever again, because the enemy has been soundly defeated.

You'll notice that it continues with:

"And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever."

That battle has been won, Hallelujah!

 

[vinsight4u]

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[keras]

You need to see how the day of the Lord and the day of Christ -are the day of His coming/His appearing. Rev. 7 is a new vision. It repeats the time just foretold in previous visions, but with further details.
after these things - things means others visions ended first

I disagree with shuffling the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. They are written in a sequence; then, after that, next, etc. You can't just insert visions prophesied later between the Fifth and Sixth Seal.
Remember that seals must be removed before any scroll can be opened. The Seventh Seal is a time gap, allowing for all the rest of Revelation up until Jesus' Return.

The Sixth Seal will be the same as the Psalms 83 event, where the Lord will destroy the attackers of Israel and clear His holy Land. Zephaniah 2:4-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5 It will be the first prophesied event to happen, commencing the end times.

 

[Waterwerx]

This is one of those topics that demands studying numerous different verses from both OT & NT. However, a lot of clues are given in the OT. We can establish with certainty that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel and Revelation are both separate events simply by comparing them.

Ezekiel 38:16 "You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.”
38:12 " to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land."

Revelation 20:7-8 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

In Ezekiel, God Himself brings Gog and allies against Israel as an easy target(in Gog's thinking) for spoil and destroys them so that the nations may know Him. If one tries to put this after Christ has been reigning with a rod of iron for 1,000 years, this creates a problem: the nations do not know God despite going through the tribulation judgments and living under His Millennial reign on earth. Thusly, the Gog & Magog account in Revelation must be a different event that is unrelated to Ezekiel 38-39.
There are a lot of verses that support the Ezekiel event being placed in the tribulation period, and it is in my strong opinion that the fall of commercial Babylon and the Ezekiel 38-39 event are all tied together in the general timing of their occurrence.

Jeremiah 6:22-23
"Thus says the Lord: “Behold, a people comes from the north country, And a great nation will be raised from the farthest parts of the earth. They will lay hold on bow and spear; They are cruel and have no mercy; Their voice roars like the sea; And they ride on horses, As men of war set in array against you, O daughter of Zion.”
6:24 "...pain as of a woman in labor" sets the timing as being in the tribulation.
Jeremiah 50:41-42
“Behold, a people shall come from the north, And a great nation and many kings Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth. They shall hold the bow and the lance; They are cruel and shall not show mercy. Their voice shall roar like the sea; They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle, Against you, O daughter of Babylon.
50:43 "...pangs as of a woman in childbirth" as mentioned above.

Coincidence? I'm not one who believes in coincidences such as that illustrated in the above comparison of the two references when it comes to Scripture. This is why eschatology is a very difficult and time consuming subject to study. I would compare it to integral calculus.

Overall, I believe there are going to be three great historical battles:
1st. will be the battle of Ezekiel's Gog & Magog, which will be over materialism directly against Israel and will grow in scope involving western and western-aligned nations vs the Gog confederacy and the east(i.e. China, SCO).
2nd will be the battle of Armageddon, which will be over "emperor worship" with the nations' armies under the leadership of antichrist being destroyed by Jesus Christ at His 2nd earthly return.
3rd will be the battle of Gog and Magog at the completion of 1,000 years of Christ's reign on earth and will be over "rebellion" and involve the entire world attempting to revolt against Christ's authority.

For now, I'm going to have to leave a lot of stuff out because this forum uses some kind of odd tool set for modifying the text(i.e. you can't highlight to delete or change all of the text you want and instead have to manually type it). Maybe if I try doing it in an MS Word document first? Any help would be appreciated, because right now it is very tedious trying to type it all out into a single unwieldy document with minimal highlights, same text size, etc. =)

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

Two different satanic ploys .... 1000 years apart .... same devil [gog], different rebelling nations [magog]

 

[vinsight4u]

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[LittleLambofJesus]

I view the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel and the invasion of Judaea described in Matthew 24:15, and the war described by the prophet Daniel as one historical event that stretches from the beginning of the Second Half of Tribulations to the Battle of Armageddon, (call it the Third World War if you like), which culminates with the Second Coming of Christ and the Rapture.

That is a good view, however since it only happens in Israel-Judea, I don't see how that would even come close to being all out global worldwide war.
Thanks for your input.........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If Gog-Magog doesn't happen until after the 1000 yr period, why is this event from Ezekiel 39 concerning Gog shown happening before it?

Reve 19:
17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, 'Come and be gathered together/sunagesqe<4863> to the supper of the great God, [Ezekiel 39:17]
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together/sunhgmena<4863> to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;

Reve 20:8
and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together/sunagagein<4863> to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;

 

[Douggg]

If Gog-Magog doesn't happen until after the 1000 yr period, why is this event from Ezekiel 39 concerning Gog shown happening before it?

Reve 19:
17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, 'Come and be gathered together/sunagesqe<4863> to the supper of the great God, [Ezekiel 39:17]
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together/sunhgmena<4863> to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;

Reve 20:8
and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together/sunagagein<4863> to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;

Ezekiel 39:17-20 is Revelation 19 is at Armageddon. And 7 years before Ezekiel 39:17-20, is the feast on Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4.

 

[Waterwerx]

That is a good view, however since it only happens in Israel-Judea, I don't see how that would even come close to being all out global worldwide war.
Thanks for your input.........

Ezekiel 38:13
"Sheba, Dedan, the merchants of Tarshish, and all their young lions will say to you, ‘Have you come to take plunder? Have you gathered your army to take booty, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to take great plunder? "

I wasn't aware that Sheba, Dedan, the merchants of Tarshish and all of her young lions are all nations within Israel-Judea. That would just be silly.

 

[bjdea1]

My 2 cents worth.

I believe there is only a SINGLE Gog / Magog battle and that it occurs AFTER the millennium. I believe Rev 20:8 is describing the same event as Ezekiel 38,39. The Gog / Magog event is only mentioned twice in the Bible, it makes sense that this unique naming would be God telling us its the same event. That just makes logical sense to me. I believe this means that looking for Gog / Magog today (or in the near future) will lead us astray and simply frustrate our understanding of prophecy. I always have believed that God intends us to understand things in a reasonably straight forward way. If 2 places in the Bible uniquely call an event "Gog / Magog" then imho they must be the same event.

God Bless.

 

[Davy]

What are others views of the "armegeddon/gog-magog in Revelation.

I and some others are of the view they are 1 and the same event, since the Bible only mentiones 1 Great Day of the Lord God Almighty.

I would like to expound on these 2 verses as this thread progresses. Thank you

Reve 16:16 And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:14]

What you are confusing is the Rev.20 Gog with the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog. They are not the same events. The Ezekiel 38-39 event is for the end of this present world when Jesus returns. The Rev.20 Gog event is for after Jesus' future thousand years reign.

In the Ezekiel 38 Gog, literal nations are given in the alignment of the great army coming upon Israel on the last day of this world.

In the Revelation 20 Gog, there is no specific mention of nation names, only the idea of a great gathering coming upon the "camp of the saints" on earth.

Do you see a difference between today's state of Israel compared to the future "camp of saints" of Rev.20 which is for after Christ's return when His 'believing' saints will dwell safely in Jerusalem? You should see a difference between Jerusalem today vs. Jerusalem then. If you don't, then no wonder why you would be confused about the Gog events.

 

[Waterwerx]

My 2 cents worth.

I believe there is only a SINGLE Gog / Magog battle and that it occurs AFTER the millennium. I believe Rev 20:8 is describing the same event as Ezekiel 38,39. The Gog / Magog event is only mentioned twice in the Bible, it makes sense that this unique naming would be God telling us its the same event. That just makes logical sense to me. I believe this means that looking for Gog / Magog today (or in the near future) will lead us astray and simply frustrate our understanding of prophecy. I always have believed that God intends us to understand things in a reasonably straight forward way. If 2 places in the Bible uniquely call an event "Gog / Magog" then imho they must be the same event.

God Bless.

This is because you haven't considered the fact that God uses metaphors throughout the Bible. When you compare both accounts of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel 38-39 vs. Revelation 20, they do not match in:
Scope: specific group of nations, north vs. all nations, 4 quarters of the earth.
Purpose: to take plunder vs. rebellion.
Instigator: Gog vs. Satan.
Ending: armies defeated by various elements(pestilence, hail, fire, infighting, etc.) followed by a massive cleanup vs. armies simply consumed by fire with no cleanup.
The only logical explanation is that the names of Gog and Magog in the Ezekiel account are used as a metaphor in Revelation 20 in order to express the overwhelming and decisive defeat of all the nations when they rebel against Christ's rule and try to attack Israel.

I've also mentioned previously that God's purpose in bringing Gog and his allies against Israel is so that the nations may know Him. This presents a major problem when tying it together with Revelation 20 because at that point, Christ would have been reigning on the earth(with a rod of iron, i.e. strict rule) for 1,000 years. To say that the nations do not know God at that point is ridiculous.
It becomes obvious that they do know Him during the millennium because of the mandate imposed upon the nations as given in Zechariah 14:16-17
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. "

As I've said before, simply going on the fact that they have the same names "Gog and Magog" as reason to conclude they are same event presents too many problems/inconsistencies with the Scriptures. The simple explanation is that the Revelation 20 account is a metaphor, just as Babylon is used as a metaphor.

 

[bjdea1]

This is because you haven't considered the fact that God uses metaphors throughout the Bible. When you compare both accounts of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel 38-39 vs. Revelation 20, they do not match in:
Scope: specific group of nations, north vs. all nations, 4 quarters of the earth.
Purpose: to take plunder vs. rebellion.
Instigator: Gog vs. Satan.
Ending: armies defeated by various elements(pestilence, hail, fire, infighting, etc.) followed by a massive cleanup vs. armies simply consumed by fire with no cleanup.
The only logical explanation is that the names of Gog and Magog in the Ezekiel account are used as a metaphor in Revelation 20 in order to express the overwhelming and decisive defeat of all the nations when they rebel against Christ's rule and try to attack Israel.

I've also mentioned previously that God's purpose in bringing Gog and his allies against Israel is so that the nations may know Him. This presents a major problem when tying it together with Revelation 20 because at that point, Christ would have been reigning on the earth(with a rod of iron, i.e. strict rule) for 1,000 years. To say that the nations do not know God at that point is ridiculous.
It becomes obvious that they do know Him during the millennium because of the mandate imposed upon the nations as given in Zechariah 14:16-17
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. "

As I've said before, simply going on the fact that they have the same names "Gog and Magog" as reason to conclude they are same event presents too many problems/inconsistencies with the Scriptures. The simple explanation is that the Revelation 20 account is a metaphor, just as Babylon is used as a metaphor.

Thanks for replying to my post, that's the first reply I've got on these forums, I'm new here.

I do believe God uses metaphors but I believe much of Revelation describes literal events in the future. There are obviously metaphors used in Revelation, the descriptions of beast etc, but as far as EVENTS being represented - they are pretty much ALL literal future events imho. So regarding the mention of Gog/Magog in Rev 20 - I consider that to be a literal event to happen after the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Also not much information is given in Rev 20, while Ezekiel gives a LOT of detail. There is nothing in Rev 20 that doesn't fit into what Ezekiel 38,39 says. In fact imho the 2 are remarkably similar.

I don't have a lot of time to devote to this, so if at some point I stop replying to you - this just means I can't give it more time.

Some more things to consider and in reply to your post. Imho during the millennium the majority of the earths population will still be UNSAVED. Jesus Christ being King of the earth won't mean everyone believes upon Him, knowing Jesus is not the same as BELIEVING upon Him, it rather means justice will be done fully and properly in the earth. There will still be sin and death and while it will be a far better time to be alive, there will still be MANY unbelievers. Recall that the first time Jesus came to earth - despite all the miracles, all the Words He spoke - there were still MANY who did NOT believe upon him, it was only a remnant in Israel that believed upon Him at that time. So I see no reason why the nations would not rebel against Christ after the millennium, mans sinful nature says to me that they naturally would. In fact I believe this is the LAST rebellion and once the matter is dealt with by God it will bring in the Eternal Kingdom, New Heaven and New Earth.

Finally the necessity of the Zechariah 14:16-17 decree (command) IMPLIES there WILL be rebellion to this command. Otherwise it would not have been stated - obviously there will be some families at different times who do not obey and will not receive rains.

There is much more to say regarding the specific conditions mentioned in Ezekiel. If you look at those condition you will see its impossible for some of them to be met in today's world (our present AGE). For example Israel could NEVER be dwelling safely and securely as an unwalled village, what we see in Israel today is the exact opposite, walls and we know the Last Days will just get worse, more violence, more wars, desolations and God Wrath. So Ezekiel 38,39 simply cannot fit our present time, but it does fit perfectly the peaceful and secure MILLENNIAL Israel that has Jesus as its King.

I don't have any more time to discuss this now but I hope I have given a fair response to you. God Bless

NOTE: One last thing - regarding the title of this thread (just to stop any confusion) I believe Armageddon to be a different event to Gog/Magog. I believe Armageddon happens in this Age, just before the millennium starts.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If Gog-Magog doesn't happen until after the 1000 yr period, why is this event from Ezekiel 39 concerning Gog shown happening before it?

Reve 19:
17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, 'Come and be gathered together/sunagesqe<4863> to the supper of the great God, [Ezekiel 39:17]
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together/sunhgmena<4863> to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;

Reve 20:8
and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together/sunagagein<4863> to war,
of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;

Ezekiel 39:17-20 is Revelation 19 is at Armageddon. And 7 years before Ezekiel 39:17-20, is the feast on Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4.

Huh? Sorry that is confusing to me. Is that a Dispensationalist teaching?

 

[Douggg]

Huh? Sorry that is confusing to me. Is that a Dispensationalist teaching?

Please read my post to Davy, #55 at this thread link. Basically it is Gog/Magog, then the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, which end with Jesus's return.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...e-world-wants-it.8044833/page-3#post-72884301

I am not dispensatonalist, so I wouldn't know. I kind of doubt it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Please read my post to Davy, #55 at this thread link.
Basically it is Gog/Magog, then the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, which end with Jesus's return.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...e-world-wants-it.8044833/page-3#post-72884301

I am not dispensatonalist, so I wouldn't know. I kind of doubt it.

Gog-Magog then the 7 yrs of Daniel then the return of Jesus.....Do you think the Jews of today will buy that?

Davy, you are not understanding that Ezekiel 39 is divided into two parts. It is not stated in the text as such. A person must understand the entire end times flow of events to know it.

The first part of Ezekiel 39 - verse 1-16 is about the Gog/Magog attack and destruction of Gog's army . That event will take place before the 7 years begin. Right before it.

The 7 years begin right after Gog's army is destroyed. And the Jews will think the little horn coming from Europe is their messiah. The 7 years in Revelation take part then.

At the end of the 7 years is the feast on the dead bodies in Ezekiel 39 - verses 17-20, the Armageddon feast. The rest of Ezekiel 39 is Jesus speaking after he has returned to earth and gathered all of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel.

Here are the two parts of Ezekiel 39. I highlighted the first part in blue and second part in green. I annotated where the 7 years of Revelation take part in between in red.

39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:


2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.


4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.


5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.


7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.


8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.


9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:


10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.


11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.


12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.


13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.


14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.


15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.


16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

[Davy, right here is where the 7 years in Revelation and the 70th week of Daniel 9 take place. Verse 17 below is at Armageddon at the end of the 7 years]

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.


18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.


19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.


20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.


21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.


22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.


23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.


24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.


25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;


26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.


27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;


28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.


29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

 

[keras]

Gog-Magog then the 7 yrs of Daniel then the return of Jesus.....Do you think the Jews of today will buy that?

That sequence is correct.
But who it is that Gog will attack, is the question. They will be a people recently brought out of the nations, living in peace and prosperity, undefended. They will trust in the Lord for their defense and He will not fail them. Ezekiel 38:8-12

They are not the Jews of today, they will be uprooted along with all the ungodly peoples in the Middle East. Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & 2:1-5
They will be every faithful Christian, God's holy people, in His holy Land, being the people He always wanted there, but has never yet had.
Friends; it is our honor and privilege to be that people. Be ready for the call to go there, Jeremiah 51:50, Zechariah 10:8-9, Colossians 1:11-12, but before that we must face the test, 1 Peter 3:12, and prove our faith in the Lord to protect us. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21