Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

Job8 · Aug 24, 2015

keras said:
Incorrect.
The attack on new Israel, living in peace and unprotected, happens BEFORE the Return of Jesus.

Israel cannot be "new" or live in peace and unprotected until AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. The description of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel clearly shows this.

keras · Aug 24, 2015

Job8 said:
Israel cannot be "new" or live in peace and unprotected until AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. The description of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel clearly shows this.

Cannot? You fail to see the great Second Exodus of the Lord's righteous people into all of the Holy Land, soon after the Psalms 83 event. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Ezekiel 34:11-31 and many other prophesies. They fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs and become the people that God always intended to occupy His Land. Isaiah 49:8, Jeremiah 31:31-34 They will elect their own leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth seal, “ the Day of the Lord’s wrath ” - the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide fire judgement, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Deuteronomy 32:43 Most clearly described in Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen on His Day of wrath: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh bowl fulfilment, the ‘great Day of the Sovereign Lord,’ when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5
He will be seen by all at the Return and the proof of a previous Judgement/punishment is: His garments are already splashed with blood.

BABerean2 · Aug 24, 2015

keras said:
They fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs and become the people that God always intended to occupy His Land

The promises were fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
The earthly Jerusalem is still in bondage.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
We are to inherit the New Jerusalem, which is now above and will come down at Christ's Second Coming.

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keras · Aug 24, 2015

BABerean2 said:
The promises were fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

You seem to forget that Jesus gave His Revelation to John, for what must soon take place. Soon; as in God's timing.
There remains much to be fulfilled, leading up to His Return, in the same way as He left. Acts of the Apostles 1:11

Re the Patriarchs; the Lord will give to their descendants the entire Land He promised to them, land that has never yet been occupied by Israelites. Deuteronomy 19:8, Micah 7:18-20

Psalm3704 · Aug 25, 2015

BABerean2 said:
The promises were fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That's not what Gal 3:16 means. It's about a promise, not a fulfillment. Christ's fulfillment to the Israelites happens during His second coming.

His finished work on the Cross is for Christians, not the Israelites. Get it straight.

Are you gonna link Gal 3:16 every time you see Christ's name on a post?

You do know His name is mentioned, what a thousand times in the bible? There are other verses about Christ too.

BABerean2 · Aug 25, 2015

keras said:
Re the Patriarchs; the Lord will give to their descendants the entire Land He promised to them, land that has never yet been occupied by Israelites

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

The claim that God has not fulfilled all of the promises to the Israelites is found on pages 52, 336, and 338 of the document featured in the video below. Pages 336 and 338 can be seen at times 24:35 and 24:45 in the video.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)

keras · Aug 26, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

You need a name change, a Berean you are not!
Yes, Joshua 21:43-45 does say the Israelites did occupy all the Land and their enemies were defeated. BUT it was far from a complete and lasting conquest, as we see in Judges 1:19-36. Virtually all of the original inhabitants managed to remain in possession of some part and the Israelites lived among them. An example is Judah, who never did take posses of the coastal plain. Only in David's time did Jerusalem finally come under Judah's control.
The time is yet to come when only true righteous Israelites will live in all of the Holy Land.

It will be during that glorious time, BEFORE the Return of Jesus, that Gog from Magog will be motivated to attack the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in order for God to display His power to His people and the world. Ezekiel 38:23

BABerean2 · Aug 26, 2015

keras said:
You need a name change, a Berean you are not!
Yes, Joshua 21:43-45 does say the Israelites did occupy all the Land and their enemies were defeated. BUT it was far from a complete and lasting conquest, as we see in Judges 1:19-36. Virtually all of the original inhabitants managed to remain in possession of some part and the Israelites lived among them. An example is Judah, who never did take posses of the coastal plain. Only in David's time did Jerusalem finally come under Judah's control.
The time is yet to come when only true righteous Israelites will live in all of the Holy Land.

It will be during that glorious time, BEFORE the Return of Jesus, that Gog from Magog will be motivated to attack the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in order for God to display His power to His people and the world. Ezekiel 38:23

You are arguing with the words of Joshua found in scripture, instead of me...

The DF claim that Israel never occupied all of the land that God had promised them, does not stand up to what is plainly written in God's Word.
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keras · Aug 26, 2015

BABerean2 said:
You are arguing with the words of Joshua found in scripture, instead of me...

The DF claim that Israel never occupied all of the land that God had promised them, does not stand up to what is plainly written in God's Word. .

Did you READ Judges chapter 1? What is plainly written in God's Word?
How do you explain the anomaly there? The plain truth is the Israelites DIDN"T kill or chase out the enemies, but they lived with them, thus causing the Israelites spiritual downfall.

Accusations of Dispensational Futurism, when you own beliefs are so erroneous, places you in very bad light.

BABerean2 · Aug 26, 2015

keras said:
Did you READ Judges chapter 1? What is plainly written in God's Word?
How do you explain the anomaly there? The plain truth is the Israelites DIDN"T kill or chase out the enemies, but they lived with them, thus causing the Israelites spiritual downfall.

Accusations of Dispensational Futurism, when you own beliefs are so erroneous, places you in very bad light.

Yes, I did read the text from Judges.

The text is clear. Just as it is written in Joshua 21: 43-45, at one point the Israelites had conquered all of the land that God had promised them.

They would lose and regain parts of it many times in the years that followed, mainly because they failed to do as God commanded.

God did as He promised, but they did not.

The claim by some that Israel never fully occupied the land they had been promised is common in DF.
However, God's Word says otherwise.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

When we face the reality that what we have claimed does not match up with scripture, then personal attacks upon the bearer of truth is one way of dealing with our mistake.

Changing our view of eschatology to match up with scripture, would be an alternative.
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keras · Aug 26, 2015

The ancient Israelites NEVER properly cleared the Land. Judges 1 is irrefutable on that point.
As I said in #227, it was only when David bought Mt Moriah from the Jebusites, that they possessed the Temple site.
I see what is said in Joshua 21:43-45 as bad translators bias, slanting the text to seem as though all the Land had been cleared, but Judges 1 proves otherwise. That is the reality BaB and your denial of it shows up your bias.

Only in the last years before the Return of Jesus, will the Lord's people finally occupy all of the Holy Land, after the Lord has cleared and cleansed it for them on His Day of fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:43

BABerean2 · Aug 26, 2015

keras said:
I see what is said in Joshua 21:43-45 as bad translators bias, slanting the text to seem as though all the Land had been cleared, but Judges 1 proves otherwise. That is the reality BaB and your denial of it shows up your bias.

Saying that scripture which proves one's viewpoint wrong is due to a bad translation, would most definitely show a bias.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

keras · Aug 26, 2015

Genesis 15:18 is clear, God unconditionally promised the entire area from the Nile to the Euphrates to Abraham's descendants.
Reiterated in Genesis 17:7-8 as an everlasting Covenant and possession.
Later, when the Israelites did make their Exodus from Egypt, God made His promise conditional; provided they obeyed all His Commandment's. Deuteronomy 19:8-9 They failed to do that, therefore never fully occupied the promised area.

The final fulfillment God's promise to the Patriarch's awaits the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath, that will at last clear and cleanse all the Holy Land. Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Jeremiah 12:14

Aijalon · Aug 26, 2015

Job8 said:
Israel cannot be "new" or live in peace and unprotected until AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. The description of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel clearly shows this.

This is correct.

As to the poll. I am beginning to view Armageddon a much more symbolic depiction of the millennium than a literal battle.

As to the Gog war, there are two wars. The E38 war is what clearly comes AFTER the resurrection of Israel, and it's return to the land in absolute peace. This is after full regeneration of Israel, but the nations are still resenting the iron scepter of Christ's rule (as Israel resented Solomon's rule).

These nations will be allowed again to understand deep deception (a final stumbling block is presented by the dragon - the dragon being a depiction of Satan's power to deceive). This battle is depicted in Revelation 20, and the "beloved city" and the "broad plain" of the earth are a depiction of the quality of man's righteousness. This is not a literal battle, it is a description of a judgement that is coming on all those who secretly believe deception, in spite of Christ's presence, and his millennial rule by imperial dominion.

The first of two Gog wars is actually described in Ez 39. Chapter 39 is basically the tale of how Gog get's his hands on possession of Israel, and is evicted, the parts following this are the restoration of the temple being depicted. This is the beloved city being reconstituted. This is a picture of the details of Ez 36-38 told at a different angle. Ez 39 is a literal army, comprised of literal nations who are encamped on the Land of Israel. This battle results in the feast of the birds, which is also depicted in Revelation 18. It is the eviction of Gog from Israel for the final time. But it is not Gog's last battle.

Gog's last battle is final judgment (Ez 38:22), and results in eviction from earth, ushering the New Heavens and New earth.

BABerean2 · Aug 26, 2015

keras said:
Reiterated in Genesis 17:7-8 as an everlasting Covenant.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
The word everlasting means forever. Nothing in this sin-cursed world lasts forever.
Therefore the everlasting part of the covenant would produce the Seed through which all of the nations will be blessed, which is Jesus Christ. He is the Seed of Gen. 3:15, John 3:16, and Gal. 3:16.

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
When the New Heavens and the New Earth come in, we will share it with Abraham and all of the Old Testament believers. It will last forever.
(Heb_11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. )

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
God told Abraham he and his descendants were to circumcise the male children.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
This part of the covenant was conditional.

Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Sarah produced Isaac through a miracle from God, which provided the One Seed, through which all the nations would be blessed. Gal. 3:16
This part of the covenant was unconditional. Nobody could stop it, since it was of God.

Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
This is the everlasting part of the covenant, which produced the One Seed of Gal. 3:16.

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

There were two parts of the Abrahamic Covenant.
One part was conditional upon the descendants of Abraham, doing as God commanded.
The second part would produce the Messiah, and was unconditional.

Many confuse the unconditional part of the promise which would produce the Messiah, with the conditional part of the covenant, which was to depend on the behavior of Abraham's seed.

When viewed in context, these two aspects of the Abrahamic covenant become clear.

................................................................................

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
..................................................................................

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are Abraham's seed and inheritors of the everlasting promise.

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vinsight4u · Aug 26, 2015

Job8 · Aug 26, 2015

vinsight4u said:
There is more than one Gog battle attempt.

That is a theory unsupported by Scripture. There is only one battle of Gog and Magog, summarized in Revelation 20 and explicated in Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39. The description of Israel in Ezekiel corresponds to what we know of the Millennium from other Scriptures.

keras · Aug 27, 2015

Bab, I do agree with your good explanation in #235. We ARE Abrahams seed and the inheritors of God's promises to the Patriarchs. We will inherit all of the Holy Land:

Jeremiah 30:10 & 18 Do not be afraid, My servants, I will bring you back safe from afar. I shall restore your fortunes, your towns will be rebuilt.
Jeremiah 32:37-41 I shall gather My people from every place where I have banished them. I will do them good, when I plant them in this Land.
Ezekiel 20:34-36 I shall bring you out of the nations....to the Meeting place in the desert. I shall judge you and those who revolt and rebel will not enter the Land.
Jeremiah 33:12-13 In this Land, there will once more be heard sounds of joy and gladness. My people will offer praise and thanksgiving in the House of the Lord. In this place, ruined and empty of people and animals, there will again be flocks of people and sheep, in all of the Land of Israel.
Micah 7:18-20 God will forgive the sins of the remnant of His people. The promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be fulfilled.
Isaiah 32:15-17 Then the Spirit from on high will come upon us. The Land will flourish and justice and righteousness will fill the Land, peace and quiet rest will prevail forever.

Colossians 1:11-12 In His glorious might, may He give you ample strength to meet with fortitude and patience whatever comes. Give joyful thanks to the Father who has made you fit to share the heritage of His people in the Kingdom of light.

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2015

keras said:
Bab, I do agree with your good explanation in #235. We ARE Abrahams seed and the inheritors of God's promises to the Patriarchs. We will inherit all of the Holy Land:

Thank you, Brother.
It is nice to see agreement, based on scripture.
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vinsight4u · Aug 29, 2015

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?

I view them as the same event

I view them as different events

I am not sure

Does it really matter?

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