Are you still a sinner?

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Apologist
...we are not sinners in the same manner as we were before Christ, but we still are sinners. We are only made righteous by Christ's righteousness, a righteousness that is a foreign righteousness and not of ourselves.

That is why I posted in an earlier post what Martin Luther once said and I agree, "we are but snow covered dung."

I think the whole debate is a matter of semantics.
We are righteous 'positionally' but we are still sinners 'practically.'
Before we were saved we were sinners both positionally AND practically.
That is the difference.

But, if Jesus' righteousness wasn't enough to permeate to the "practical" man, what good does the positional change do? God said that He was not interested in the "practical" man, the outward man, but in the heart.... The state of our heart is not a sinner, but has been declared righteous because of and through Christ. But, we aren't snow covered dung. Jesus didn't just cover us with His blood, He CHANGED us with His blood. When God cleanes us, He doesn't just COVER UP the stain, but He washes it away. Therefore, I'm not dung. He's SCRAPED THE DUNG AWAY.

Again "If any man BE IN CHRIST, he is a new creature. Old things ARE PASSED AWAY, and behold, all things are BECOME NEW."

It's nice to have such an humble heart as you guys do, but that doesn't mean to call a sinner what God has cleansed. He calls us a HOLY NATION... How can sinners be holy???? Unless you don't understand holiness, you'd agree that sinners CANNOT be holy. But, because we aren't sinners, but are the righteousness of God through Christ, not covered but changed, we can be holy.

Don't call common what God has cleansed. To say we're still sinners is to call us common, just like every other man. No, I'm a CHRISTIAN (if you'd prefer not to call yourself a saint) who USED to be a sinner, and from time to time I still sin, but that nature is now foreign to me... And the deeper in Christ I go, the more foreign to me it becomes. And although sin will always be present with me as long as I'm in this body, I know that through Christ, I can do all things. So, where I may not get perfect, I'm getting BETTER. No longer a sinner, but now saved by grace, changed. It's not a haughty opinion of myself because of myself I am and can do nothing. It's because of God... But, BECAUSE OF GOD, I am no longer considered a sinner...

No longer a slave to sin, but a child of servant of God. What else do you think Paul was referring to in Romans, when he spoke so much about no longer being slaves to sin? That means that I'm no longer a sinner, but am now a slave to righteousness. I don't SERVE sin any longer. Although I may commit one, I'm not a servant to it, hence I ain't a sinner.

 

[sklippstein]

I am saved, bought by the blood of Jesus......but i still sin daily.....that's why i go to the Father every day and confess my sins and ask that i be forgiven. How could i walk through this life w/o ever sinning? ever speed ? that's a sin......ever have an evil thought......that's a sin......ever say something that wasn't Christ like? that's a sin........the list goes on and on.

 

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Andrew
I dont think Paul (nor Peter) in his writings to the church ever called the brethren sinners, even though they were sinning.

Yes, we still sin, but as far as God is concerned we are not longer sinners. we are "new creatures" in Christ, the old is gone. so stop calling yourself and other Christian "sinners". 

 

When have I called anyone else a sinner? 

 

[Blindfaith]

[mod hat on]

I'd like to step in here and remind everyone to be respectful of everyone else's opinions and beliefs.  If someone doesn't believe in exactly what you do, there's no reason to take a sharp tone.

Thanks for your cooperation all!

[mod hat off]

 

[sbbqb7n16]

Hey I got a question... how do you define sinner?? That could be the determining line for a lot of people..

sinner (1)- the definition I use- one who's life is characterized by sin
or
sinner (2)- one who sins

See I am no longer a sinner(1), but I am a sinner(2)... throws off the whole thing don't it lol sorry

My reasoning:
After being bought by Jesus my life is no longer characterized by sin, but by obedience and forgiveness. And in God's eyes, I am clean as a whistle lol because of Jesus, not because of me. However, I do still sin from time to time (closer to every day).

 

[dignitized]

Still waiting to know when and where I called anyone besides myself a sinner . . . . also waiting for scriture where anyone declairs THEMSELVES a saint.

 

[Andrew]

When have I called anyone else a sinner?Ê

yeo, i was just talking in the gen sense, not you.

BTW: the moment you are born again, you are a saint in God's eyes.

Also waiting for scriptures where Paul or Peter addresses the churches as sinners instead of brethren, beloved or saints.

 

[Live4Jesus]

The holy spirit put like a layer in here... I just don't feel temptations so strong anymore, i know it's there I hear the thought from time to time but it becomes like background chatter, there isn't any pushing pulling of my emotions or strength anymore... Grace.

However admittedly... I still sin just in little ways, probably the tongue more than others...

I don't know that part i try to get better be better its a matter of saying stuff just right sometimes I gueess so you don't hurt someone... on the other hand I don't know people get hurt so easily sometimes its hard to say whats right.

as for the rest, I think I am fed or something even anger seems a thing of the past...

sooo easy with the Holy spirit... when I feel I might get upset I just kind of move out of his way and let grace cover me... go on about something else...

I am real sure though taht there may be things I do that im not aware of that may be sin as far as i know nothing major, hopefully I'll never be in a position where I would have to kill to save my life or my daughter but again that we leave in His hands and know that He does protect us...

Man I love Jesus.

 

[dignitized]

Paul and peter refer to the brethren as Saints to bring edification rather than condemnation. I would of course refer to "brethren" as saints for the same reason. To attempt to edify oneself by calling oneself a saint is to stray in to the realm of pride and presumption.

HOW BROTHER MASSEO TOLD ST FRANCIS, AS IN JEST, THAT THE WORLD WAS GONE AFTER HIM; AND HOW ST FRANCIS ANSWERED THAT IT WAS INDEED SO, TO THE CONFUSION OF THE WORLD AND THROUGH THE GRACE OF GOD
St Francis once was living at the Convent of the Portiuncula, with Brother Masseo of Marignano, a man of great sanctity and great discernment, who held frequent converse with God; for which reason St Francis loved him much. One day, as St Francis was returning from the forest, where he had been in prayer, the said Brother Masseo, wishing to test the humility of the saint, went forth to meet him exclaiming: ““Why after thee? Why after thee?”” To which St Francis made answer: ““What is this? What meanest thou?”” Brother Masseo answered: ““I mean, why is it that all the world goeth after thee; why do all men wish to see thee, to hear thee, and to obey thy word? For thou art neither comely nor learned, nor art thou of noble birth. How is it, then, that all the world goeth after thee?”” St Francis, hearing these words, rejoiced greatly in spirit, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, remained for a long space with his mind rapt in God; then, coming to himself, he knelt down, returning thanks to God with great fervour of spirit, and addressing Brother Messeo, said to him: ““Wouldst thou know why all men come after me? Know that it is because the Lord, who is in heaven, who sees the evil and the good in all places - because, I say, his holy eyes have found among men no one more wicked, more imperfect, or a greater sinner than I am; and to accomplish the wonderful work which he intends to do, he has found no creature more vile than I am on earth; for which reason he has chosen me, to confound all strength, beauty, greatness, noble birth, and all the science of the world, that men may learn that every virtue and every good gift cometh from him, and not from any creature, that none may glory before him; but if any one glory, let him glory in the Lord, to whom belongeth all glory in eternity.”” Then Brother Masseo, at such a humble answer, given with so much fervour, was greatly impressed, and learned of a certainty that St Francis was well grounded in humility.
---LITTLE FLOWERS OF SAINT FRANCIS


It is a universal characteristic of TRUE saints that they veiw themselves as vile in the eyes of God despite their sanctity.

 

[Andrew]

To attempt to edify oneself by calling oneself a saint is to stray in to the realm of pride and presumption.

huh?? to me calling myself a saint is like calling myself a Christian or beloved of the Lord or child of God or friend of Jesus or brother of Jesus or the righteousness of God in Christ etc. Just calling it like it is -- what's so prideful and presumptious abt that?

I honour Him by acting and behaving and living like what He, thru his precious blood, has made me out to be -- king-priest in Christ Jesus!

perhaps you think its presumptious or proud becos when you hear the word saint you're thinking in terms of how the Catholics use it or limit it.

 

[dignitized]

Jesus lived the example of HUMILITY.

Philippians 2
6 who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,
9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --
11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


When we are HUMBLE God will exalt us without our needing to exalt ourselves.

I am thinking as a man who would not dare to presume upon the rights and privileges of God. It is for HE to name who is and who is not a saint through His chosen mouthpieces.

There are Saints and then there are saints. “S” Saints are those whose witnesses and testimonies undeniably profess the Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Men and women who through the miraculous have been verified to be with God in heaven. While “s” saints are those of us here on earth who do the will of God, the body of believers the tried and tested. Not all who say: “Lord, Lord” are known to him. Those who Cry Lord, Lord presume upon the mercy of God, on their relationship with Him and on His Grace.

I claim no title for myself other than servant. If God would call me brother, friend, or beloved that is HIS choice. I do not presume to apply those titles to myself.

BTW - where do you find that you are a “king-priest” in scriptures?

 

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max

It is a universal characteristic of TRUE saints that they veiw themselves as vile in the eyes of God despite their sanctity.

We are vile in the eyes of God, it's the sin especially that is vile. But becareful also, because if you know Him, you also begin to comprehend, if it's possibvle how much He loves you. Don't shirk His love because you're too vile, remember He promised to save you, to cleanse you white as snow.

He loves us Br Max and because of that we are also sanctified in His love.

Without His grace there is nothing but once he starts working that in you, and Him thru you, then to continue to cinsider yourself nothing but vile may grieve the Holy Spirit, ye are the temple of God.

Its the sin that is vile, let go of it.

Love your neighbor as youself, would you treat your neighbor as vile as well? No, so...

Forgive, and remember also to forgive yourself.

 

[dignitized]

LOL I have no doubt of God's Love or His provision. I am well aware as was St Francis that despite my falled estate and my sinfu nature God has chosen to use me as His vessel.

Love your neighbor as yourself? lol His point was that you should seek to meet the needs of others before you seek your own pleasures.

 

[Andrew]

Br Max,

If you cant believe you are a king-priest-saint in Christ Jesus, that's fine by me. It's sad, but its up to you.

 

[mellymell]

God doesn't view me as vile. When He sees me, all He sees is the blood. Now, if that blood still makes me a sinner, then I guess I am. But, it's always been my contention (and that of the Word's-at least, of my interpretation of it) that Jesus' blood was powerful enough to liberate me from the bondage to sin, hence I am no longer a sinner.

Man cannot serve two masters, and I NO LONGER SERVE SIN. If I am no longer a slave to sin (Read Romans), then I am no longer a sinner. I may commit a sin from time to time, but I no longer "work for that company" anymore. The benefit package is much better on the other side!

 

[dignitized]

andrew: I would like to know where you find grounds to make such a claim. If you have not a Scriptural basis for such a claim I want to know where you are pulling this from.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

a saint is one who has been sanctified- made holy. 1 Corinthians 1:2 The greek word for saint is "hagios" (Strong's #40) and sanctified is "hagiazo" (#37). Since when is that prdieful to declare God's forgiveness? if it is then you had better call Paul himself prideful because he said he was sanctified...

The word for "saint" is also the word "Holy" from "Holy Spirit"

You call yourself a Christian and you don't consider that prideful... a Christian literally means little Christ... you say you are a little Jesus, but you see nothing wrong with that... so why is it wrong to say you have been sanctified and thus become a saint?

And you want Bible verses for it? My pleasure
Romans 10:3-4 (key word- everyone)
Romans 8:1-4 (actually ALL of chapter 8)
Romans 6:1-14, (notice verse 11 commands us to count ourselves alive with Christ) 18
John 3:16-18, 36
John 5: 39-45 (If He won't condemn me, I consider that worthy enough to be a saint)
John 6:18
Psalm 149 (Speaks of saints and Isreal alomst the same)
Psalm 4:3 (NIV word "godly" is "hasid" which occurs 26 times in the Pslams in the NT it is often translated "saints" according to NIV text note)
Ephesians 1:1

Have you read through the epistles since you asked this question?? I chose to stop there because there are so many verses that use that word... get a concordance.

It is very funny though that you would deny calling yourself a saint to the glory of God... (I'm assuming on this part) you witness of His forgiveness and love, right? You can't have His forgiveness and love and not become a saint because His forgiveness and love MAKES you a saint. Don't you see that? If you deny calling yourself a saint, then you have to deny yourself every promise ever made by God to every Christian because... if you don't have His forgiveness then what good is it to you? "what doth a man gain should he inherit the world yet lose his soul in the process" right?

 

[dignitized]

AGAIN - WHEN does anyone in scripture call THEMSELVES a saint? I want just one scripture reference when some one in scriptures says, " I AM A SAINT."

Forgiveness? That’s not the issue and never has been. There is little doubt that IF and when you do as scripture commands for the forgiveness of sins, your sins will be forgiven you. Does that mean you cannot sin again? Nope.

What do you call some one who sins? A sinner. Just like some one who tells lies is a LIAR and some one who murders is a MURDERER and some one who was one president of the United states is STILL called Mr. President even though he no longer holds that office.

I am also waiting for the scriptures for PRIEST-KING.

 

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by mellymell
God doesn't view me as vile. When He sees me, all He sees is the blood. Now, if that blood still makes me a sinner, then I guess I am. But, it's always been my contention (and that of the Word's-at least, of my interpretation of it) that Jesus' blood was powerful enough to liberate me from the bondage to sin, hence I am no longer a sinner.

Man cannot serve two masters, and I NO LONGER SERVE SIN. If I am no longer a slave to sin (Read Romans), then I am no longer a sinner. I may commit a sin from time to time, but I no longer "work for that company" anymore. The benefit package is much better on the other side!

It's the sin that makes the flesh vile.. but being saved we are washed in the blood... still a need for the uncorrupted body though.... still something vile about the flesh like umm.. ever get a zit... heh heh but you know... the bodies we are born with here are suceptible to something....

But Bro Mel! You are right I would agree neither am I a slave to sin.

feels good doesn't it... ? What a relief. There are things about the Holy Spirit that those who don't know the truth will never know cannot comprehend... I am sure you will agree... it's a mystery indeed...

 

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Br. Max
AGAIN - WHEN does anyone in scripture call THEMSELVES a saint? I want just one scripture reference when some one in scriptures says, " I AM A SAINT."

Forgiveness? That’s not the issue and never has been. There is little doubt that IF and when you do as scripture commands for the forgiveness of sins, your sins will be forgiven you. Does that mean you cannot sin again? Nope.

What do you call some one who sins? A sinner. Just like some one who tells lies is a LIAR and some one who murders is a MURDERER and some one who was one president of the United states is STILL called Mr. President even though he no longer holds that office.

I am also waiting for the scriptures for PRIEST-KING.

I suppose it depends on your perspective... when I searched the new testament at bible.com I got 6 pages of the apostles calling the new converts saints... six pages... 10 quotes per...

Depending on your perspective I suppose let me say like this... I was raised Catholic, at the age of 15 I was confirmed... now supposedly when you are confirmed you are supposed to rteceive the Holy Spirit... heh I felt nothing and was no different....At the age of 34 I was saved by Jesus Christ,,, saved I never expected the things that would happen then to happen and I was a few months later really really filled with the Holy Spirit and boy oh boy now was that the real thing ... still here ... will never leave me... walks me thru each day... gets me thru many a tough moment... now BR Max I suppose that if you rely on things that are equivelant to indulgences such as your confirmation day, if you are cathoilc that is, then I suppose you would have a problem with the idea that the Holy spirit being with you means that you are no longer a slave to sin... because maybe you don't really have what you think you are suppose to... like they tell you it is... but what they tell you ain't neccessarily the truth depending on where you go... you should look to God rather than men for these things because only He can provide them.


--
Surely I can just see Paul the apostle... After saying this type of stuff:

***
Ephesians 1:1 -Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 3:8 - To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
***
backing off and then saying, oh ahem, with the exclusion of myself I could never count myself among you saints being as ye are saints oh dear...

Can't you see just him doing that Br Max? hoy veh.