Are you still a sinner?

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Apologist
As I said in another post, positionally we are declared righteous because of Christ, but practically we are still sinners.
Maybe we have a semantics problem here.

We do still sin as it is clearly stated in 1 John 1:8:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I think Martin Luther had it right when he said we are, "Snow covered dung." A very apt description I would say.

I think Martin Luther had it quite wrong. We're not snow covered dung. If any man be in Christ, he is a NEW creature, not just a nice looking, but still filthy creature. Bible outweighs Luther.

I never said that we don't still sin. Matter of fact, I said that I do. But, what I do doesn't make me who I am. God has declared me righteous, righteous practically and positionally. I am no longer a sinner by nature. I am a saint. But, it doesn't mean i don't ever commit a sin, I'm just not a sinner. I can hit keys on a piano but that doesn't make me a pianist. I can fix a toilet but that doesn't make me a plumber.

 

[dignitized]

Mel: you are welcome to proclaim yourself a saint. God does not declare ME righteous - He declares Christ Righteous and me, covered in His blood. Man’s nature is fallen and cannot be changed from that. Even post salvation experience we are still tainted by the sin of Adam. Our sinful nature is not gone because we are born again, quite the contrary, it remains. What happens is that we acquire the additional grace to resist and overcome our sinful natures. I can peck at a piano but that does not make me a pianist. I can bang on pipes but that does not make me a plumber. I am covered in the blood of the Righteous One, but that does not make me righteous.

 

[dignitized]

I am a sinner. I am BECOMING (God willing - and through HIS grace) a saint.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by mellymell
I think Martin Luther had it quite wrong. We're not snow covered dung. If any man be in Christ, he is a NEW creature, not just a nice looking, but still filthy creature. Bible outweighs Luther.

I never said that we don't still sin. Matter of fact, I said that I do. But, what I do doesn't make me who I am. God has declared me righteous, righteous practically and positionally. I am no longer a sinner by nature. I am a saint. But, it doesn't mean i don't ever commit a sin, I'm just not a sinner. I can hit keys on a piano but that doesn't make me a pianist. I can fix a toilet but that doesn't make me a plumber.

If you believe this then what is sanctification for?
Those who are righteous do not need sanctification.

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Mel: you are welcome to proclaim yourself a saint. God does not declare ME righteous - He declares Christ Righteous and me, covered in His blood. Man’s nature is fallen and cannot be changed from that. Even post salvation experience we are still tainted by the sin of Adam. Our sinful nature is not gone because we are born again, quite the contrary, it remains. What happens is that we acquire the additional grace to resist and overcome our sinful natures. I can peck at a piano but that does not make me a pianist. I can bang on pipes but that does not make me a plumber. I am covered in the blood of the Righteous One, but that does not make me righteous.

I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

2 Cor. 5:21 - "He made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf, that we might be MADE the righteousness of God in Him."

We have been MADE righteousness in Christ, not covered with righteousness only, but made righteousness because of Christ. He didn't just cover us, He made us over... If any man be in Christ, He is a NEW CREATURE. Now, does that mean I don't ever sin? NOPE. Righteousness is of faith, not of works... My faith in Christ has allowed Him to step in and make me righteous, not as though I have anything to boast in because it wasn't something I earned. Jesus made me righteous and to then say that I'm not righteous, despite what Scripture has said, is a slap in the face to the Lord who died to make us righteous.

Originally posted by Apologist
If you believe this then what is sanctification for?
Those who are righteous do not need sanctification.

Yes, those who are righteous DO need sanctification. But, I seek sanctification because I AM righteous, not to become righteous. Being made righteous gives me the RIGHT to live right, not the other way around.

I'll quote one of my contemporaries: "You BECOME, and then you DO." You are made righteous, and then you live righteously. You can't LIVE righteous enough to be considered righteous, it's through Christ alone.

 

[eldermike]

I never said that we don't still sin. Matter of fact, I said that I do. But, what I do doesn't make me who I am. God has declared me righteous, righteous practically and positionally. I am no longer a sinner by nature. I am a saint. But, it doesn't mean i don't ever commit a sin, I'm just not a sinner. I can hit keys on a piano but that doesn't make me a pianist. I can fix a toilet but that doesn't make me a plumber.

I agree with this. This thread is discussing the word sinner but in different context. Sinner = a person that sins or sinner = my title. Some are discussing one ans some the other.

Which one is this thread about, my title or my actions?

Blessings

 

[dignitized]

Mell: becoming teh righteousness of God and being Righteous in my own right are two seperate things.

 

[SnuP]

why would you call cursed something that God calls blessed. If you say that you are still a sinner then you say that you are still under the curse. If you call that humility then you are in error. That is false humility. True humility does not denounce the truth. If God says that you are righteous then you are righteous regardless of what you say or think. Your righteousness is not effected by your sin. Again I ask:

Why would you call something cursed that God has called blessed?

If you say that it is humility than you are agreeing with the ememy that God's work is not enought. Why would you believe a lie?

 

[dignitized]

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
snup: agreeing with the enemy? The enemy would have me BOAST in pride that I am great in the eyes of God. The enemy would have me brag that I am a saint! The enemy would have me proclaiming my own righteousness rather than the righteousness of Christ Jesus. I tell you that I am a sinner saved by Grace through Jesus Christ and His sacrifice not my own. I proclaim that I have no righteousness of my own to speak of. My own righteousness is as FILTHY rags in the eyes of the Righteous One. The only Righteousness I have is that of Christ imputed to me.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
snup: agreeing with the enemy? The enemy would have me BOAST in pride that I am great in the eyes of God. The enemy would have me brag that I am a saint! The enemy would have me proclaiming my own righteousness rather than the righteousness of Christ Jesus. I tell you that I am a sinner saved by Grace through Jesus Christ and His sacrifice not my own. I proclaim that I have no righteousness of my own to speak of. My own righteousness is as FILTHY rags in the eyes of the Righteous One. The only Righteousness I have is that of Christ imputed to me.

I agree, but there are two extremes here, both are dangerous.  If you agree with the enemy on either side (whether still a sinner or no longer in need of assistance) then you effectively limit your ability to move and effet the spirit realm.  It is really about authority.  If you are still a sinner then you have no authority, you are still subject to the wims of the flesh.  If you promote yourself above your station then you steal authority and operate in rebellion.  In both cases God must move you out of that mindset, and set you focas on Him.  Otherwise there can only be defeat.  If you think that you are still a sinner then it is because your focas is not completely upon Christ, rather it is upon your circumstance.  The other position places you attention upon yourself.  Niether one place their complete trust in Christ, and are there for under the influence of the enemy.

If you are in Christ then you cannot be a sinner, because there is no sin in Christ.  You are a saint, and a priest, but not because of anything that you have done.  You are a saint because you are in Christ and your trust is in Him.  To call your self a sinner is not humility, rather it rejects the work that Christ has done in you.  He has either removed all sin or He hasn't, and if He has removed all sin from you then you can not be a sinner.  Even if you do sin, God has already paid for that sin also and it is removed from your charge before you even commit it.  It is satan who walks around looking to accuse, saying "Look they are not redeemed, Your work has been in vain, they still sin, they are still sinners."  And Jesus our advocate counters, "The price that I paid covers even this sin, they are clean."  By calling yourself a sinner, you are agreeing with the enemy and have become a witness against yourself.  As if to say to God, "Your work has not been sufficient in my life."  But His work is sufficient.

 

[dignitized]

I am and will be as long as I live a sinner. There is nothing that can change the fact that I am tainted by the sin of Adam. I sin and don't even know it many times! We all do. So I must disagree with you that a sinner cannot be a Christian. If you go by the example of most people who claim to be Christians with their sexy clothes, dirty mouths, selfish lives, and haughty demeanor - the BIGGEST sinners are Christians!!

Being a Christian does not mean I stop sinning. Being a Christian means that I no longer have the MINDSET of a sinner. We as Christians are to put on the mind of Christ and God consciousness and become saintly in motivations. This does not preclude our failing - any one who says he does not fail and fall is a liar or a fool. A Christian seeks to please Christ and do HIS will. A Sinner seeks his own will and own pleasure. Funny though, as much as I want to perform God’s will and pleasure rather than my own - I often find myself doing my own.

I am a sinner aspiring to be a saint.

 

[SnuP]

James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, IT gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

What makes you think that every evil though or desire is a sin. Or that every wrong desision is a sin. No wonder you feel like such a sinner.

Matthew 5:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Notice the intent, he lookes with the purpose to lust. It did not say that if a person notices a women and a lustful thought happens to inter into his head then he has. . . The intent in the scripture is very clear. All sin has to have an intent, other wise it is not sin. If your only purpose is to love God and love your neighbor then you will never sin, no matter how many evil thought enter into you brain. Not every thought has its origins in human thought.

 

[mellymell]

The Bible says NOT to call what God has cleansed common. By calling yourself a sinner after God has declared you righteous is sin in itself. Previously, somebody said that:
sinner=someone who commits a sin
This isn't true.
sinner=someone who hasn't been made righteous through Christ (saved)
Andrew, if you want to consider yourself a sinner for the rest of your life, go ahead, but my Bible tells me that I am a son and no longer a servant. I've been freed from sin, and although I still commit sin from time to time, sin s no longer my God. I'm not a sinner saved by grace. I WAS a sinner who is now saved by grace.

 

[dignitized]

WHY are people ignoring PAUL and what he said of himself in His first epistle to Timothy?

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He does not say of whom I WAS chief – AM. Present tense. Paul says he IS a sinner even as he addresses Timothy as his Spiritual son. I challenge you to find a single verse where Paul proclaims HIMSELF a saint. – or for that matter a verse of scripture where a person proclaims themselves a saint. Do not presume upon God or His grace.

SNUP:

Do not presume that I am a walking ball of guilt or that I am ignorant of what is written in scriptures. I TEACH scriptures and religious formation. I did not say or even imply that every stray evil thought is a sin. You assumed such.

What I said is simple – Actually and practically we are all sinners. A person who sins, is a sinner, and we ALL sin even those of us who walk with God. NOW, as a born again believer I have the righteousness of Christ IMPUTED to me – it is not mine to claim ownership of – it is His and His alone to give – His Righteousness COVERS my unrighteousness and sin so as to make me pleasing in the eyes of God. Wearing sheep’s clothing does not make a wolf a sheep. Wearing the blood of the Righteous One does not make ME righteous.

I am a sinner called to be a saint. I no longer have the way of thinking or the approach of a LOST sinner, but the fact remains that I AM a sinner. I may now be God conscious and seeking to do the will of the Father, but I am still a fallen creature tainted by the sin of Adam and bound to do evil even while wanting to do good.

Romans 7: 18-21 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

 

[dignitized]

Sin: a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Sinner: one that sins

Saint: a : one of God's chosen and usually Christian people b: one eminent for piety or virtue

 

[ZiSunka]

I still sin, but not because I love to, nor out of habit, nor out of intentional rebellion against God. So, even though I sin, I don't make a habitual practice of sin and I repent when I do sin, so no, I'm not a sinner anymore.

 

[dignitized]

sinner: a person who sins.

Saint: a sinner who TRIES NOT TO SIN.

 

[Andrew]

I dont think Paul (nor Peter) in his writings to the church ever called the brethren sinners, even though they were sinning.

Yes, we still sin, but as far as God is concerned we are not longer sinners. we are "new creatures" in Christ, the old is gone. so stop calling yourself and other Christian "sinners".

The Bible constantly reminds us abt what we have been made into thru Christ so that we will wake up and live like what we've been made into already.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Andrew
I dont think Paul (nor Peter) in his writings to the church ever called the brethren sinners, even though they were sinning.

Yes, we still sin, but as far as God is concerned we are not longer sinners. we are "new creatures" in Christ, the old is gone. so stop calling yourself and other Christian "sinners".

The Bible constantly reminds us abt what we have been made into thru Christ so that we will wake up and live like what we've been made into already.

I agree with Br. Max.

No, we are not sinners in the same manner as we were before Christ, but we still are sinners. We are only made righteous by Christ's righteousness, a righteousness that is a foreign righteousness and not of ourselves.

That is why I posted in an earlier post what Martin Luther once said and I agree, "we are but snow covered dung."

I think the whole debate is a matter of semantics.
We are righteous 'positionally' but we are still sinners 'practically.'
Before we were saved we were sinners both positionally AND practically.
That is the difference.

God Bless

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Br. Max
sinner: a person who sins.

Saint: a sinner who TRIES NOT TO SIN.

what ever happened to the consept of being a new creature?

2 Cor. 5
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come (all things have become new)! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

You all make it sound as if we are really just the same old creature, just white washed.  You are not basing your position on scripture, rather it is based upon the failure within your own lifes.