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Are you allowed to say it?

food4thought

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As a security guard, I have few opportunities for interacting with others during work. Still, I have found that there is some time to sit and talk with those I am working with on a regular basis. What I have strived to do is to develop a relationship with a few coworkers that is personal. With that kind of relationship, people are more willing to share what they consider to be a personal belief. Sadly, most people have been indoctrinated to think that their religion is private, and should not be publicly discussed. By developing personal relationships, the barriers of public and private are broken down, and people are more willing to hear and to shre about their beliefs.

Although during training I was told "politics and religion are off limit topics", politics are routinely discussed in practice, so I have no qualms about ignoring that prohibition and obeying God's word. I would hope that, regardless of the restriction, if I were nudged by the Spirit to share my faith with someone, I would obey the Spirit and not the mandates of secularism.
 
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candle glow

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When the Holy Spirit tells us to do something, that is our part. If another has never had that gift of revelation, then all the letter of the law can do is convict them.

Hi Nora. Jesus said that his teachings ARE the Holy Spirit, and the job of the holy spirit is to remind us of Jesus' teachings. To argue that the holy spirit has not "led" someone to act on the teachings of Jesus makes the job of the holy spirit pointless. Could this be what Jesus was talking about, when he taught about blasphemy against the holy spirit?

Could it be as simple as rejecting the teachings of Jesus by claiming that the holy spirit has not done it's job? Why would God offer eternal life to people who not only reject the teachings of his son, but then have the audacity to claim that it's the fault of the holy spirit for not "revealing" it to them?
 
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candle glow

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Hi food4thought. Welcome to the thread and thanks for sharing.

It's great to hear that you have some desire to share with people at your job. But I think the lesson Jesus was trying to teach is that there is a great big world out there waiting to hear what we have to say.

Why limit ourselves to a few individuals here and there, if we happen to get the chance, when we can make preaching our full time job? We can reach thousands of people every year without a fear of what the boss will think.

But the only way to do that is to stop being loyal to your boss. Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. The disciples understood this concept. That's why they left their fishing jobs, tax jobs, etc to follow Jesus.

Invariably, people ask how they will be fed and clothed, though, if they quit their jobs working for money. But Jesus dealt with those issues, too. He told us to consider the birds and the flowers, because they do not work, and yet God is able to take care of them.

He said that we are much more important than birds and flowers. The idea is to start working for a new motivation, one where we don't demand payment before we show our love for others.

Imagine what kind of witness you could give if you really DID take Jesus at face value. The world is full of churches and people saying "god bless you" at work. The world is full of Christians who argue that a few minutes of conversation about God here and there, while at their work, is good enough.

But is that consistent with what Jesus told his followers to do?
 
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Norah63

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Yes food4thought, that is so true. Working with people gives a time for easy conversation.
I have found myself just humming a hymn tune and another worker will say they remember that old song. It leads to simple faith building with few words needed. It is awesome how the spirit leads.
 
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abysmul

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Just think if all the Christians in the world stopped working... all of those teacher, doctors, farmers, builder, all of the Christians that work to provide us with fuel to travel, fuel to heat our homes, electricity, communication... over 2 billion people no longer producing...
;)
 
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Omena

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Just think if all the Christians in the world stopped working... all of those teacher, doctors, farmers, builder, all of the Christians that work to provide us with fuel to travel, fuel to heat our homes, electricity, communication... over 2 billion people no longer producing...
;)

I agree it would be bad if the world stopped working. The world simply wouldn't function if everyone decided to just sit around and do nothing, but fortunately that is not what Jesus is telling us to do. He is not telling us to stop being productive, he's telling us to stop doing our jobs for a paycheck. There is a big difference here, but time and time again people seem to willingly ignore that difference in order to scrap everything Jesus said about working for money.

Since when does "working" automatically imply "for money"?
 
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abysmul

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I agree it would be bad if the world stopped working. The world simply wouldn't function if everyone decided to just sit around and do nothing, but fortunately that is not what Jesus is telling us to do. He is not telling us to stop being productive, he's telling us to stop doing our jobs for a paycheck. There is a big difference here, but time and time again people seem to willingly ignore that difference in order to scrap everything Jesus said about working for money.

Since when does "working" automatically imply "for money"?

Candle sure seemed to imply that we leave our jobs, preach full time:
Why limit ourselves to a few individuals here and there, if we happen to get the chance, when we can make preaching our full time job? We can reach thousands of people every year without a fear of what the boss will think.

But the only way to do that is to stop being loyal to your boss. Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. The disciples understood this concept. That's why they left their fishing jobs, tax jobs, etc to follow Jesus.
 
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candle glow

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Since when does "working" automatically imply "for money"?

Abysmul's post seems more like sarcasm than genuine discussion. I hope I'm wrong about that.

And I agree with you, Omena. I think it's a sign of cultural brainwashing when people assume that no work can be done without money.

I mean really, just imagine it...people who refuse to work unless they get paid for it. They can't imagine a world where people help each other just because they want to help each other and as a result, they come to this forum suggesting that the world would fall apart if no one was demanding payment anymore. When you strip away all the flowery speech about God, the bottom line of all their reasoning is money money money money money money.

Is that really the kind of Kingdom Jesus was preaching? Far from it.
 
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candle glow

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Candle sure seemed to imply that we leave our jobs, preach full time:

Haha no way, abs, don't misrepresent me! I didn't "imply" that at all. I came straight out and said it very clearly! In fact, I've said it many, many times over again. That is definitely what I am saying. People should stop using their time demanding payment from others, and start working for love, the way Jesus taught it and the way his followers did it.

It's not my teaching. It's from Jesus. ;)

But, according to what you've said, it appears that YOU'VE implied that preaching full time is not a real job. Is that correct?

I guess Jesus didn't have a real job (since preaching was his full time job), and I guess the apostles were mistaken when they forsook their jobs to follow Jesus full time (as well as the other disciples and the early church from acts, too).

Why didn't he rebuke them for that and tell them to go back to work for money again? Maybe Jesus was confused, too? If only you lived in those days, you could set them all straight, abs. You could explain to all of them about the importance of money and how the world would fall apart without money.

But, you'll need a lot more practice if you want to convince the son of God that he was missing the bigger picture regarding money.
 
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candle glow

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Woe, that money is sure a sticking point.
Just a little bitter in some remarks, but then some days can be better than others.
All Abysmul said was what if everyone did what you asked.

Yes, I also believe it is a very serious sticking point and that's why Jesus said so much about it.

Also, no, abys did NOT explain a situation where everyone did what I asked.

I never once said that people should stop working, and I believe you know that Nora, especially since the two of us have been over that point on many occasions spanning several different threads. We both know that I never said people should stop working, and yet you persist in promoting the lie that I did say it.

I believe you do this as an expression of your own bitterness over this issue. These teachings from Jesus are deeply convicting for most of us because they deal with the root of all evil (i.e. the love of money).
 
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HalfFull

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I couldn't agree more with you, candle glow. I've thrown money down, under my feet, out of my heart. I do not NEED money, I need Jesus. And guess what, if one of my needs just so happens to involve money, Jesus will find a way to get it to me. I use my own money to bless others, I give more than what is comfortable, I push myself to make sacrifices. If it feels like it's enough, I give to qhere my flesh and mind feel uncomfortable about. We're not living for our flesh as Christians, are we? We're not supposed to. It takes sacrifice, discipline, and the love of God and the peace that surpasses all understanding. Do we serve an Almighty God, that holds the universe in His fingertips, created all of creation, has wonderful thoughts about us, not only knows but instilled in us the desires of our heart, has every hair on our head numbered, came to Earth in physical form and DIED for us, and yet we put faith in tiny pieces of paper for 'security' and 'comfort'. God is my security and He comforts me every time I ask!

And He'll take care of all of you in every way you ask, providing you have the faith that He will!
 
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Alithis

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Michael, you have stated your part very well.
When the Holy Spirit tells us to do something, that is our part. If another has never had that gift of revelation, then all the letter of the law can do is convict them.
Only the Spirit gives life.
Several have tried to share on this thread. May the Lord add His Spirit to the reading of the Word.
As the op question stated, "are you allowed to say?" It depends somewhat on how much opposition any is ready to encounter.
My peace I leave with you, not as the world gives.

thanKs Norah -I also believe i stated my part more then clear enough .
but it was rejected out of hand for obvious reasons - never to mind . God is so awesomely good :clap::clap:

ya know, a question i asked that has been repeatedly ignored - has now been answered , i believe without intent to do so -.(for, "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks"- and if you listen carefully you will hear the true nature of the heart of any speaker - ie the lord Jesus is the heart of God, speaking - and the greatest example of that verse in eternity )

-and the answer has brought clarification on two counts . One being, that the one asked has not yet a comprehension of the question.. i say ,not yet, because, praise God ,he has not finished his work - amen .

and two - the clarification has enlightened us to see more clearly the work of the letter of the law in a persons life, as opposed to the work of the Holy Spirit .
Now my heart is softened all the more because of the wondrous grace the lord has bestowed upon me when he baptized me in the Holy Ghost .thus I am allowed to speak in testimony of the glory of his wondrous love and grace displayed to us in the lord Jesus any where anytime any how .. as the lord Directs me to do so .

God bless you ever so abundantly for your soft replies and bless all that read this that all may know him in the beauty of his holiness - Amen
 
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candle glow

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ya know, a question i asked that has been repeatedly ignored - has now been answered ,

Congratulations on getting the answer you were looking for.

Now, if only *I* could get some answers from you, which have also been ignored?

I'll go ahead and repeat them again here, because they are significant.

t is NOT working to receive a wage that is bad ..the worker is worthy of his wage .. and God considers it an evil if you do not pay someone the agreed wage for their labors .

Earlier, you listed a few points which you felt were significant. I would like clarification from you on one of those points. This will now be my forth time asking about the above quote from you. Here are my questions.

It's evil if we don't work for money? Really?

We show who we love by who we give our time to. Who are you really giving your time to when you demand payment for your help?

Also, can you show the teachings from Jesus (remember, our Lord and savior, the cornerstone?) where he says that God expects us to demand payment for our help?


Next, you said:

Michael post #54 said:
nope- he actually said that to a singular individual

You made a very bold claim that Jesus only said something about forsaking all to a singular individual. In post #56 I challenged you on that with several different examples from the gospels. This was your response to those challenges,

Michael post #58 said:
no point .

Yeah, when Michael is shown irrefutable evidence that he's got it wrong, he simply decides to ignore it, but he loves to boast about how others do not listen to him or how well he states his arguments.

This is evidence that Michael simply does not want to hear what he does not want to hear. Fingers in his ears. All of his arguing focuses on the benefits of forcing others to pay us for our help, and occasionally he throws in a few "God is awesome's" or other such beautiful phrases to give his arguments the appearance of being made to God's glory.

Well, Michael, until you can be accountable for that very bold statement, the rest of what you say will sound very shallow and insincere. After all, who can reason with someone who so obviously does not care about the facts?
 
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candle glow

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and two - the clarification has enlightened us to see more clearly the work of the letter of the law in a persons life, as opposed to the work of the Holy Spirit .
Now my heart is softened all the more because of the wondrous grace the lord has bestowed upon me when he baptized me in the Holy Ghost .thus I am allowed to speak in testimony of the glory of his wondrous love and grace displayed to us in the lord Jesus any where anytime any how .. as the lord Directs me to do so .

In all of this talk of "the law" and obedience to Jesus' commands, let us remember what the man himself said about it, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me?"

It's easy to use flowery speech about God; Jesus recognized that even back in his day. They love to say stuff like, "Now my heart is softened all the more because of the wondrous grace the lord has bestowed upon me when he baptized me in the Holy Ghost". It's so sweet.

But when it comes to obedience to Jesus, they say, "...clarification has enlightened us to see more clearly the work of the letter of the law in a persons life, as opposed to the work of the Holy Spirit ."

Again, consider this teaching from Jesus:
MT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

MT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Jesus isn't stupid. He knows what flattery is and he's not fooled by it. He's looking for obedience. When we all stand before God, he won't be impressed with arguments about how nicely we spoke of him to others in Christian forums or arguments about the letter of the law.

Look at his words. He's looking for obedience. Over and over and over again all throughout the gospels he talks about the need to obey.
 
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Alithis

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for all to consider: the tone of your posts

Which part of the teaching of the Lord Jesus (the word of God in the flesh) are you adhering to ?

poor in spirit?- lowly humble?
sorrowful- repentant?
comforter?-building others up in faith
meekness?-becoming a stepping stone to see others lifted
thirsting for a righteousness- that cannot be obtained by actions?

merciful?

pure of heart?

peacemaker?

filled with blessings for even an enemy of God ?

the answer is between you and the lord .
actions speak louder then words it is said.

in testifying ,these should all be the base attitudes our testimony is built upon .
Are we allowed to speak of the lord Jesus .. yes - any where anytime as the Lord prompts us to do so.
God bless you
 
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HalfFull

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Amen, Michael. There is a spirit of pride and self-righteousness in these forums. Not singling anyone out, it seems to be the norm around here. It saddens me to see it on all places, a Christian forum. We are called to love and be long-suffering, I see bickering and hastiness. I'm all about teaching, correcting, and rebuking, but it must be seasoned with grace for it to have much effect.
 
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thesunisout

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But he was wrong. He did have the right to criticize them for their stingy attitudes and he should not have gone off thinking that he needed to work for money to take care of himself.

This is what he says in the chapter just after the verses you posted, for a fuller context:

2COR 12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

2COR 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not your's but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

It seems he's being a bit sarcastic with the apology, because even though his intentions were good (i.e. not wanting to overburden them with many criticisms) he still did the wrong thing by not correcting them on this issue.

Brother, please look again because the verses you provided for context disprove your case. Verse 13 is said in irony and sarcasm and it isn't an actual apology for wrongdoing. Notice in verse 11 he was answering against the same charge from 1 Corinthians that he was inferior to other apostles. The charge was that he must not be a real apostle because he had to work to earn money instead of getting support from the other churches. Of course this wasn't the case and Paul was setting an example by supporting himself so he wouldn't burden others. Nothing has changed from 1 Corinthians to 2 Corinthians. It's the same scenario and the same explanation.

If it was Paul admitting wrongdoing and apologizing, why do you think that in verse 14 he again repeats that he is going to do the very same thing on his third visit that he did before? What do you think he means by "I will not be burdensome to you" and "children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children". What he is saying is that he isn't going to ask for any compensation and will pay his own way just like before. I am wondering how you can read this and think it says the exact opposite of what it actually says. You keep reading your interpretation into the verses but it isn't there. Paul is very clear about what he is doing and why he is doing it, and that it isn't a mistake and he will continue to do it.

Everyone makes mistakes, even Paul. You can also read about this story at the beginning of Acts 18, when Paul travels to Corinth. It says he went out to make tents, but when his buddies Timothy and Silas showed up he was "pressed in the spirit" and went to preach the gospel full time.

In other words, seeing his spiritual friends again helped him to snap out of it and he went back to preaching full time.

Brother I am exhorting you here to rightly divide the word of truth because you are reading your doctrine into the text. We need to believe what we read, not read what we believe. Here is the verse you're referring to:

Acts 18:5

And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

So we can both agree that Paul at this point stopped his tentmaking ministry for the time being. Why? You gave your explanation which is that Silas and Timotheus helped Paul "snap out of it", as if what he was doing was wrong. However, we don't need to speculate, as Paul tells us why he stopped making tents and preached full time:

2 Corinthians 11:9

And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way.

In other words, Silas and Timothy relieved Paul materially so he could preach the gospel full time without being a burden to the church. You are acting like Paul made some kind of mistake, when he was living by a principle that Christ taught:

Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.

Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

Paul worked for his own bread so he could help the weak because it is more blessed to give than to receive. He did not claim his rightful due for preaching and instead labored for his own bread, and the bread of others, so that he could give instead of receive like Christ taught. Paul was perfectly in line with the teachings of Christ but you try to rob Paul of his humble service by claiming he did something wrong.

The word "pay" is a translational issue. You won't find that in the KJV. It's a growing trend towards watering down the gospel and making it more palatable for luke-warm Christians who can't imagine a world where people work to help each other just because they want to and not because they expect something in return.

It's the same with the phrase "earn a living" or the implication that any time the word "work" is used, it's automatically talking about demanding payment from people before we will help them. It's so totally anti-Christian to insert these implications into the lessons being taught.

First, I would ask that you stop implicating that I am a luke-warm Christian, and this is the second time you've done so. It's anti-christian to denigrate your brother in Christ, so please take the plank out of your eye before you try to take the mote out of mine.

Second, by now saying this is an issue of translation instead of substance you have admitted that the passage contradicts your interpretation of Matthew 6:24. It is a fact that Paul worked for money in Thessalonica to support his ministry, and the KJV doesn't say anything different:

2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

3:8 says that they did not eat any mans bread for nothing, ie by not paying for it
3:9 says they had the right to do so, but chose to set an example
3:10 says that they commanded them to follow this example

The irony is that this is exactly what you are doing. I talked about Jesus' sermon on the mount where he quite clearly says that we cannot work for God and mammon (money and the things money can buy) at the same time without cheating on one or the other.

What He says is that we cannot serve money, which is not the same as working for wages. You have falsely equated the two things, and the testimony of Paul contradicts this interpretation. Jesus is saying not to make money an idol, not that earning money is wrong. Paul also tells us we should labor so that we can give money to those who are in need:

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

He told us to consider the birds and flowers specifically because they do not work for money and yet God still takes care of them. He told us NOT to be like the rest of the world chasing after all these material things and that we should not let fear for these things stop us from serving God's kingdom first.

Jesus told us not to worry about these things

You act as if God would never use a job to provide someone the resources they need to buy food, money or clothing. Does God need to use a job to do that? No, but He often chooses to. Therefore earning wages doesn't mean you are worrying about where you are going to get food, money or clothes, if that is the way God has chosen to supply those things to you.

Your response was to point to Paul and basically say, "see, paul said if we don't work we shouldn't eat" and you've ASSUMED that Paul was talking about working for money, because it conforms to your bias to do so.

I didn't assume anything; that is what the text says. 3:8-9 are talking about how Paul earned money so as not to be a burden, and then he commanded them to follow his example in verse 10. I think Paul is talking about having a ministry where you preach and also earn wages to support yourself. Paul chose to set a higher standard by making sure he supported himself on missions.

Paul was writing to a Christian community who were living together and working together full time (as described in Acts 2 and 4 as well as defined by the example Jesus and his followers gave, too). The context is obviously about the work of the church community (i.e. preaching the gospel, social outreach programs, household chores/administrative duties, group studies, etc...)

If you don't want to work (in the church) then you should not eat (in the church). It has nothing to do with Christians forcing people to pay them before they will offer their help.

Really, you are the one pitting Paul against Jesus.

What Paul was talking about is supporting himself on missions and living by the principle that Jesus taught which is that it is better to give than to receive. He refused to take compensation for his work so that He could set a good example and not be a burden on others. This is a lesson the church still needs to learn today. Paul also said it was good to earn money so we can help the needy. You apparently believe Paul was wrong for foregoing his right to live off the gospel to set a higher standard by arguing he made a mistake. Well as I've shown the text does not support that interpretation in any way. Paul didn't make a mistake, he was setting an example for us all and we could learn a lot from it.
 
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HalfFull

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^ Amen. In this day and age, it is safe to say that a majority of the money ANYONE receives is from working, or if you're disabled, an SSI.. Or maybe even welfare. And honestly, how are you going to bless people without money? In light of that, you can still give and bless others without it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we are called to give, it is not 'unrighteous' for one to hold a job or have a business. The money received is both a blessing to you, and to others. Do I need money, personally? It is important enough to be mindful of, but not be the main focus. Jesus is, and always should be the main focus. Like I said, HE supplies your NEEDs. Did he not make money come out of a fish's mouth? Well, that very same Jesus can do something similar to that if you needed it.
 
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candle glow

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for all to consider: the tone of your posts

So, you've decided to turn this into something personal, rather than deal with the issues?

It's a strategy. Instead of keeping the focus on what Jesus said, Michael is turning this into a personal grudge match with me. Now, instead of talking about what Jesus said, we are all talking about me, aren't we? See how it works?

Michael was presented with evidence that he was wrong about something, as well as evidence that he is deliberately ignoring facts regarding what Jesus said.

I asked Michael, twice, to be accountable for his words. The first time he came straight out and said "no point". Why would a Christian say there is no point to admitting that he was wrong?

Now, the second time he says he doesn't like the "tone" of my posts? Why? Because I am challenging him to be accountable? Is that really so bad? Is it "bickering" for Christians to hold one another accountable?

Nope, what I see happening here is a combination of religious pride and cover-up. You were wrong, Michael, about there being only a "singular" reference to forsaking all. Why not deal with that, instead of turning this into an issue about me?
 
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