Are you allowed to say it?

[candle glow]

Then people start making little coins out of metal, and they tell the whole world that they can't have any of these necessities (that you provided) without trading these coins.

I think another aspect of this insult, aside from people having decided they will not help others unless they get payment for it first, is the belief that we would die without money.

Imagine being God, the source of all life, and sharing this life with your creations, only to watch them switch over to believing there is some OTHER source of life without which they cannot live.

When people have that attitude, it's called idolatry. "Worship" isn't just about singing songs or bowing down. We can show worship in many different ways, including our actions and attitudes.

When we give our time to something because we believe we will die if we don't, then that is a kind of worship, too. This dependency on money is like idol worship.

It's not the money itself which is the problem, but rather, the attitudes that people have about money. It is the motivation that is the problem. We should be working because we love one another and we want to help one another, and not because we are afraid of life without money.

To overcome the lie that money is the source of life, we need to stop working to get more of it and start working for a new motivation. You can even still use money if people decide to share it with you, but don't work to get more of it. Don't let payment be the motivation for why you work. Just work for love.

That is the message Jesus was preaching.

 

[abysmul]

candle glow

This has been asked more than once, your honest answer could very possibly help us see what is shaping your interpretation of scripture on this topic:

Now, since I've answered your questions, I would appreciate it if you will answer mine:

Since this is basically all I ever see you talk about on CF, how about you tell us tell what this looks like in your life? How do you support yourself? Where does your food, water, and clothing come from? How about your electricity? How do you get the things you need including your computer and the other electronics you have?

Please answer.

 

[candle glow]

Hello absy. Under more sincere circumstances, I'd feel inclined to share more of my personal experiences, but there have been several attempts to distract this topic away from Jesus and on to me personally. I don't want that to happen.

Consider this comment from sunny:

Again..Jesus Himself was a carpenter and the son of a carpenter. Yes, Jesus had a trade; do you think He did all of His work for free or do you think He helped support His family?

Quite hostile, isn't it? Do you see what he's done here? He's made it an either/or situation. If you work for free, you are a lazy person who doesn't support others. The implication is that a person's worth only shows itself when they work for money (i.e. when they force someone to pay them for their help).

Yeah, I do work for free. But if I were to go into any of the details about that with someone like sunny, how do you suppose he'd respond ? Something about trampling and rending comes to mind.

BTW,

Are you aware that sunny also tried to convince me that people are NOT actually looking for help when they ask a plumber to fix their toilet? What they are REALLY looking for is someone to give their money to?

People who are seeking to buy goods and services are not looking for help, they are looking to pay someone for their labor.

Absy, do you really not see anything strange at all with this reasoning? People don't really want to be helped anymore, they just want to participate in an economic system! That's the real goal of life, isn't it?

Talk about brainwashing...

 

[abysmul]

Hello absy. Under more sincere circumstances, I'd feel inclined to share more of my personal experiences, but there have been several attempts to distract this topic away from Jesus and on to me personally. I don't want that to happen.

Consider this comment from sunny:


Quite hostile, isn't it? Do you see what he's done here? He's made it an either/or situation. If you work for free, you are a lazy person who doesn't support others. The implication is that a person's worth only shows itself when they work for money (i.e. when they force someone to pay them for their help).

Yeah, I do work for free. But if I were to go into any of the details about that with someone like sunny, how do you suppose he'd respond ? Something about trampling and rending comes to mind.

BTW,

Are you aware that sunny also tried to convince me that people are NOT actually looking for help when they ask a plumber to fix their toilet? What they are REALLY looking for is someone to give their money to?



Absy, do you really not see anything strange at all with this reasoning? People don't really want to be helped anymore, they just want to participate in an economic system! That's the real goal of life, isn't it?

Talk about brainwashing...

You answering those questions would help us understand where you are coming from. One's life experiences can influence how one interprets scripture. Knowing where someone is coming from can sometimes shed light and understanding on a topic where individuals disagree.

I see no hostility in:

Again..Jesus Himself was a carpenter and the son of a carpenter. Yes, Jesus had a trade; do you think He did all of His work for free or do you think He helped support His family?

I'd also suggest that throwing terms around like brainwashing could be viewed hostile too. You really want to go down that road of parsing words on the internet?

Oh, and I personally have paid a plumber to do something I could do, but did not want to. The money I paid the plumber was worth not having the time and aggravation involved in me doing the task. Just like many people pay someone to change the oil in their car, when they can do it themselves (again, like me).

 

[Colleen1]

I was talking with a friend yesterday about a T-shirt I printed with a Christian message. He joked with me that it could be my "on the job witness" but said that I'd probably not be allowed to wear it in a normal work environment anyway.

I joked that I'd have to be content to just keep saying "God bless you" as my on the job witness, but then I wondered if there are any jobs left where people are allowed to talk about God at all.

Are you allowed to say "God bless you" at your place of work?

In a quick response to your question... I've worked at a Catholic elementary school before and I found it refreshing from that perspective. I had a student asking if I believed in God and told the principle and he said feel free to share... It was a great experience and I respect work places such as this especially in regards to teaching children. I also wear a necklace with a cross when I work and I find that in itself is a witness. I need to pay mind and be alert of my behavior but yes...that in itself can be a witness. I have caught many eyes acknowledge it and it has even sparked some discussion.

 

[candle glow]

I'd also suggest that throwing terms around like brainwashing could be viewed hostile too.

Nah, it's noting personal or hostile. It's just not true that the world would fall apart if we didn't work for money (or the things money can buy). That people have come to believe this lie so whole heartedly is an indication of brainwashing.

It's the same kind of brainwashing which will make the mark of the beast so effective. The prophecy says that no one will be able to buy or sell without this mark.

Despite the warnings against taking the Mark, people will almost certainly end up taking it because they believe they cannot live without buying and selling (which is what money is used for anyway).

The same reasoning that is being used here on this thread is the same reasoning which will be used to justify taking the Mark. Actually, it's almost certain that most people won't even recognize the Mark as the Mark. They will probably see it as the next step in world banking.

From gold coins, to coins of lesser value, to paper money, credit cards, online banking, smart cards, phone banking etc until finally, the Mark.

So, yeah, there definitely is an element of brainwashing at work regarding the issue of trusting in money. I don't say it as an insult. It's very much a genuine issue.

 

[thesunisout]

BTW,

Are you aware that sunny also tried to convince me that people are NOT actually looking for help when they ask a plumber to fix their toilet? What they are REALLY looking for is someone to give their money to?

Absy, do you really not see anything strange at all with this reasoning? People don't really want to be helped anymore, they just want to participate in an economic system! That's the real goal of life, isn't it?

Talk about brainwashing...

Now you're just willfully distorting what I said, since I've already clarified to you what I meant by that comment. I told you clearly that by help I meant handout, and you heard me because you repeated it back to me. I just did that a few comments back so you couldn't have forgotten. Why do you act like that? You keep telling everyone how we should live according to Christs teaching, but the entire time you mistreat those who disagree with you. How about you get the loving your brother part down before you tell everyone else how they should live?

People don't call a business for service with the expectation of getting a handout. Most people don't want a handout, they want to compensate people for their time and money because that is what is fair to them. I also do jobs for free, and when I tell them the job is free many people are uncomfortable with that. They will either insist I take a payment, or compensate me with food or trading their skills.

You're entirely right that we shouldn't be motivated by money or compensation in the things we do, but that doesn't mean we should never accept wages for work. Paul did it and he did it so he wouldn't be a burden on others, and so he could help the poor. He even commanded his churches to follow his example. So however you might try to twist Matthew 6:24, we have a clear record of Paul accepting wages for his work, and that for a noble purpose. You also tried to twist that 5 different ways but the scripture clearly testifies against your position.

 

[candle glow]

Hi Colleen.

Thanks for sharing those thoughts about witnessing at work. What I am suggesting is that, if a little bit of witnessing on the side is good, then what about a lot of witnessing? Maybe even just making it our full time job, like Jesus and his followers did?

 

[abysmul]

Nah, it's noting personal or hostile. It's just not true that the world would fall apart if we didn't work for money (or the things money can buy). That people have come to believe this lie so whole heartedly is an indication of brainwashing.

It's the same kind of brainwashing which will make the mark of the beast so effective. The prophecy says that no one will be able to buy or sell without this mark.

Despite the warnings against taking the Mark, people will almost certainly end up taking it because they believe they cannot live without buying and selling (which is what money is used for anyway).

The same reasoning that is being used here on this thread is the same reasoning which will be used to justify taking the Mark. Actually, it's almost certain that most people won't even recognize the Mark as the Mark. They will probably see it as the next step in world banking.

From gold coins, to coins of lesser value, to paper money, credit cards, online banking, smart cards, phone banking etc until finally, the Mark.

So, yeah, there definitely is an element of brainwashing at work regarding the issue of trusting in money. I don't say it as an insult. It's very much a genuine issue.

Claiming brainwashing isn't an insult, but he was being hostile?

 

[candle glow]

Claiming brainwashing isn't an insult, but he was being hostile?

Hmm, I don't know why you keep insisting on making this about personalities. It's not sunny that I'm responding to, it's his teachings.

Sunny is promoting a teaching which says working for love is akin to laziness while teaching that forcing people to pay us for our help is Godly.

To the person who works for free, yeah, I reckon that teaching sounds a bit hostile.

But what sunny is teaching is not consistent with what Jesus taught, or how he and his followers lived. I keep brining that example back into the picture, but you've not responded to it. Why is that?

Is there any record of Jesus charging for his work? What about the apostles? Did they charge for their healing, or for their preaching? How did they survive?

Is there any record of Jesus teaching that people should NOT withhold their help from one another unless they get paid for it? If so, can we see it?

Lets keep the focus on the teachings and example of Jesus, ok?

 

[Colleen1]

Hi Colleen.

Thanks for sharing those thoughts about witnessing at work. What I am suggesting is that, if a little bit of witnessing on the side is good, then what about a lot of witnessing? Maybe even just making it our full time job, like Jesus and his followers did?

You're welcome.

I think our message should be the same but individual circumstances should be considered especially in regard to the words we use and the way we witness. ...the person's need, personality, circumstances, etc. ...and then through words, deeds, exemplified behavior...

Going into full time ministry is a thought...

 

[thesunisout]

Nah, it's noting personal or hostile. It's just not true that the world would fall apart if we didn't work for money (or the things money can buy). That people have come to believe this lie so whole heartedly is an indication of brainwashing.

You know candle glow, this discussion isn't bearing any fruit. I don't agree with your interpretation but I do mostly agree with the spirit which is behind it. I work for Jesus and if He wants me to do all of my work with no compensation that's fine with me. So far, He hasn't called me to do that and He has made sure that I do get compensated, even when I am not looking for it. Either way, I am open to however the Lord wants me to live.

You and I haven't ever really gotten along on this board, and it's probably because we're both stubborn and unwilling to admit when we are wrong. I am admitting though that when I am quarreling with my brother for whom the Lord died I am in sin, regardless if the scripture says I am right. So, whatever has come between us, right or wrong, I let it go. I forgive you for any wrong you have done and I ask that you would forgive me for any wrong I have done to you. I love you and I pray the Lord will cause you to prosper in all that you do. God bless.

 

[candle glow]

Going into full time ministry is a thought...

 

[candle glow]

You and I haven't ever really gotten along on this board, and it's probably because we're both stubborn and unwilling to admit when we are wrong.

Hmmmm, yeah there are plenty of times when I am wrong and times when I can be stubborn, but it seems a bit strange that you feel a responsibility to admit that for me, on my behalf. Don't you think?

Anyway, when you want to talk about living by faith in the teachings of Jesus, I hope you will feel inspired to come back here.

 

[thesunisout]

Hmmmm, yeah there are plenty of times when I am wrong and times when I can be stubborn, but it seems a bit strange that you feel a responsibility to admit that for me, on my behalf. Don't you think?.

I just recognized a similarity in temperament and pointed to that as the possible issue. If you don't agree, that's fine. It's nothing I want to go back and forth on.

Anyway, when you want to talk about living by faith in the teachings of Jesus, I hope you will feel inspired to come back here.

Thanks. If the Spirit so inspires, I will return. God bless.

 

[Colleen1]

 

[candle glow]

One argument which has been made here repeatedly, is that we all have different callings. This argument was brought up in the context of working for God vs working for money; some people are called to work for God full time while others (presumably the majority of the world) are called to work for money.

I believe this is a half truth because there is a basic principle which is still being missed in this argument.

God may call a 1000 people to witness in a 1000 different ways in a 1000 different places. Some people may start a children's ministry, hospital or a prison visitation ministry while others may choose to do free work as an expression of the love found in the kingdom of Heaven.

Some may start a church or Bible study group while others feel led to travel to different parts of the world. Some may choose to speak their testimony while others prefer to write it down in the form of tracts or books.

But the bottom line in all the various ways of witnessing is that it still needs to be built on the foundation of Jesus' teachings.

This is where the contention comes in. Some people argue that working for money is just another way to witness. But is it really a witness of the values of Heaven?

the basic principle of working for money is that we will not work if there is no money. If someone either does not have the money, or does not have enough money, then we refuse to work. This principle has been refined to the point that people believe they cannot live without money; that money is what makes the world go round; that the whole world would fall apart if we stopped working for money.

Is that really what heaven is all about? Is that really consistent with what Jesus preached? Is that the witness Jesus wants us to show to the world?

Money in itself isn't evil. But then again, neither is food or clothing, and yet Jesus even had a problem with these basic necessities being the motivation for why we work.

The kingdom of Heaven is about showing love towards one another, but that becomes confused as soon as we make any physical thing the motivation for why we work. God is not against us using material things to make our lives better, but he does care about the MOTIVES for why we work.

This is why Jesus told us to consider the birds and flowers, specifically because they do not work for material things, and yet God is still able to provide for them.

He said God will provide for us, too. It doesn't matter HOW he will provide. The point is, do we understand his reasoning. Do we get the lesson? Are we will to do it his way even if we don't have all the answers ahead of time?

 

[Breezee]

ok Candle. Say I buy into this idea that people can live without money. What then? Would we have some form of government?
If you got 1000 people to follow the same philosophy you're preaching, how would you organise yourselves? Would you farm? or what would you do?
I'm getting from you (and the teachings of Jesus) that motivations are what is important. At what point do you draw the line at "working for food"? It seems pretty hard to get away from. For example, is cooking supper "working for food"? What about shovelling food into your mouth or walking to the store?
I'm not saying your theory is wrong, I'm just wondering how much you have thought through the issues.
Money is a self regulating system that puts a value on people's time and a value on other goods and services. I know that's not fair right from the start, because society does not give equal value to each person's time and labour. The richer and more educated you are the more value the system puts on your time, and so people measure their time (and lives) in terms of money, which is just stupid, because life is sooo much more than money can buy. Nobody can buy happiness and money can't guarantee your health, not matter how rich you are.
Anyway, I'm raving now, but I will leave you with this quote "Whoever dies with the most money wins!"
Is that really the kind of world we want to live in?

Anyway, Candle, I may not agree with or understand everything you're saying, but I love the way you're making me think.

pax

 

[Alithis]

i have no problem with the concept of what candleglow is sharing
the only issue i have is that God does not tell every person to do -in each of their lives the exact same thing at the exact same time .

if the Holy Spirit ..who IS the manifest Spirit and presence of the Lord Jesus himself .. tells a person to go and work for a another person, ..take the money earned and pay Cesar what is cesar's(so to speak) ., then that person is serving God in their obedience And- NOT serving money .

you cannot paint every situation with the same brush .you cannot take what you have learned from a singular book about "the teaching of Jesus" and forcibly apply that singular teaching to every situation" -

be honest- the base foundation of all these posts in that regard are not based on the bible ..it is based on a book "ABOUT" the bible .

i realized that on browsing the posters testimony .
it reads as follows -

Personal Testimony - How I became a Christian
I read a book which described how the teachings of Jesus were meant for everyone, and not just certain people. I read about Jesus' teachings in a way that I'd never seen before and appreciated the emphasis on working for love and helping others full time, as my new job.
My Mood

Now that is very wonderful .. and it is, for this time in your life ,..for YOU ,obviously .
But you cannot impose it on others, as the lord Jesus is working in all others the work he needs to do in their lives as HE WILL , not as YOU will.

-from past experience i expect you will dissect and misrepresent what i have said here .. but if you do i shall only repeat this post from time to time -

 

[candle glow]

the only issue i have is that God does not tell every person to do -in each of their lives the exact same thing at the exact same time .

Don't be mis-leading, Micheal. I never said everyone must do the same exact thing at the same exact time. I've only said that the followers of Jesus should obey him.

you cannot paint every situation with the same brush .you cannot take what you have learned from a singular book about "the teaching of Jesus" and forcibly apply that singular teaching to every situation" -

Thanks for reading my testimony, but you are being irrational about it. Yeah, I read a book which inspired me to take a closer look at what Jesus said and what he did. The cornerstone is still Jesus; not some book. In fact, I've been talking about the cornerstone all along.

But speaking of the word, "singular" I notice that you seem to like that word. You used it previously to declare that there is only one instance of forsaking all recorded in the gospels. Do you remember that?

I provided some examples to show that you were mistaken, but you ignored that and told me there was "no point" to responding to that evidence.

Why would you feel there is "no point" to discussing teachings which you thought did not exist? Wouldn't a sincere person be very interesting in discussing teachings of Jesus which they previously did not know about?

Would you care to discuss those teachings now? Or, if you feel there is still no point to discussing them, could you at least acknowledge the evidence, so that it doesn't look like you are deliberately ignoring evidence because it contradicts your point of view?