Are you allowed to say it?

[candle glow]

You are acting like Paul made some kind of mistake, when he was living by a principle that Christ taught:

Ok, since you've brought Jesus into it, let's explore this, though it really does look like you've painted yourself into the same corner Michael did with his claim that Jesus only ever taught about forsaking all to one person.

You say that Paul was out there working for money. The purpose of his work was to get money. He was making tents, but he would not do the work unless he got paid for it.

That's how working for money works. Paul would not do the tent making work if he din't get paid. His willingness to help is directly dependent on whether or not someone gave him something in exchange. If they didn't give him something, then he would not make the tents.

You say this is a teaching from Jesus, that people should not work unless they get paid for it. Can you show us where Jesus taught this principle?

 

[candle glow]

And honestly, how are you going to bless people without money? In light of that, you can still give and bless others without it.

Hi halffull. Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Thanks.

 

[HalfFull]

I apologize, it's late and my mind is jumbled.

I was simply saying that you don't need money to bless people, but it can be used as a blessing. There are people out there with major financial difficulties, and money would sure turn their lives around. Does God need money to bless people? No, but it is a tool often used to do just that. Not only does it bless the recipient but also the giver. For in what matter we sow, we shall also reap. Win-win.

I am with you in faith, candle glow, that the focus does not need to be money, but it's prevelant in this day and age as it was back in Jesus' day. How can we help the poor if we're poor too? Having money readily available to give by umption of the Holy Spirit is a pleasant and rewarding experience and should not be neglected in my eyes.

 

[thesunisout]

Ok, since you've brought Jesus into it, let's explore this, though it really does look like you've painted yourself into the same corner Michael did with his claim that Jesus only ever taught about forsaking all to one person.

You say that Paul was out there working for money. The purpose of his work was to get money. He was making tents, but he would not do the work unless he got paid for it.

That's how working for money works. Paul would not do the tent making work if he din't get paid. His willingness to help is directly dependent on whether or not someone gave him something in exchange. If they didn't give him something, then he would not make the tents.

You say this is a teaching from Jesus, that people should not work unless they get paid for it. Can you show us where Jesus taught this principle?

That isn't what I said. I wrote many paragraphs and you choose to take one sentence out of it and take it out of context. I will turn the other cheek though and continue with you.

Pauls motive for working was to support himself and pay for his own bread rather than burdening others. You could draw an analogy to someone who is able to work but chooses instead to take a check from the government. Paul said this is wrong and you should earn money rather than live off of someone else. He also said you should earn money to help the needy.

I'm sure Paul would have made a tent for someone without charging for it, but his motivation was to support his ministry and he saw nothing wrong with making money off of his skills, and neither should anyone else. He saw the important thing as being the ministry and he was helping by earning his own money to support it.

The beginning and ending of this is that you have no idea what God has called people to do and you make unwarranted assumptions about what people should or shouldn't be doing based on your erroneous interpretation of Matthew 6:24. It's not wrong to earn money, so long as that is not usurping Gods place in your life. God does call people to work, for various purposes, for His glory.

Here are some relevant questions:

Do you believe God never calls people to work?

Do you think people who do work for money should refuse their salaries?

How do you support yourself? Who pays for your food, water, clothing, electricity, etc?

 

[Alithis]

" that isnt what i said " is a term many are having to use in their replies .

its a shame .

 

[Alithis]

So, you've decided to turn this into something personal, rather than deal with the issues?

It's a strategy. Instead of keeping the focus on what Jesus said, Michael is turning this into a personal grudge match with me. Now, instead of talking about what Jesus said, we are all talking about me, aren't we? See how it works?

Michael was presented with evidence that he was wrong about something, as well as evidence that he is deliberately ignoring facts regarding what Jesus said.

I asked Michael, twice, to be accountable for his words. The first time he came straight out and said "no point". Why would a Christian say there is no point to admitting that he was wrong?

Now, the second time he says he doesn't like the "tone" of my posts? Why? Because I am challenging him to be accountable? Is that really so bad? Is it "bickering" for Christians to hold one another accountable?

Nope, what I see happening here is a combination of religious pride and cover-up. You were wrong, Michael, about there being only a "singular" reference to forsaking all. Why not deal with that, instead of turning this into an issue about me?

in my posts where did i make it about you ?where in my posts is you're name mentioned ?

you mention mine so often
im flattered lol

 

[candle glow]

Sunny, this is what I said regarding your comments:

That's how working for money works. Paul would not do the tent making work if he din't get paid. His willingness to help is directly dependent on whether or not someone gave him something in exchange. If they didn't give him something, then he would not make the tents.

And this is what you said:

I'm sure Paul would have made a tent for someone without charging for it, but his motivation was to support his ministry and he saw nothing wrong with making money off of his skills,

Where did I misrepresent you? Talk about the boy who cried wolf!

Maybe you will decide to answer the question now? You said:

You are acting like Paul made some kind of mistake, when he was living by a principle that Christ taught:

Where did Jesus teach that people should withhold their help from others UNLESS they get paid for it?

Is there any particular reason why you will not answer this question?

 

[candle glow]

in my posts where did i make it about you ?where in my posts is you're name mentioned ?

Oh, so it's a technicality, then. Fine, whatever.

Can we get back to discussing Jesus now?

You said quite clearly that Jesus' teachings about forsaking all were for a singular individual. I posted several bits of evidence to show that was NOT the case.

Were you mistaken? It's okay to say, "oh I didn't know about those verses". Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. But the problem here is that you are AVOIDING your mistake. Why?

 

[candle glow]

Do you think people who do work for money should refuse their salaries?

Good question. What did Jesus say about serving two masters? What would he want his followers to do? You ask me what I think, but this isn't really about me, is it?

The point is, what does Jesus think? What did he teach his followers to do?

He said that we cannot work for two masters. We will love one and hate the other. He said God is one master and mammon (money and the things money can buy) is the other master. We show who we love by who we give our time to. God or money?

 

[Norah63]

The abrasive words used could just be a ploy to keep the thread going.
When clear questions are asked, the answers never come, just more of the same harsh
replys.
It might be government checks are where the support is coming from. Who knows. Unless they have fish with coins in their mouths, as was the miracle that Jesus did.
Michael and Sunisout have tried to communicate, as have I. It seems to no avail.
The turn the other cheek, was a kind response. May I do likewise and learn that not evryone wants fellowship from me.

 

[OriginalOatmeal]

We are to always witness. We do not always have to use words. We have to a life that shines. Sometimes people need to hear certain things from you and sometimes they need to just see you smile peacefully.

 

[candle glow]

I am with you in faith, candle glow, that the focus does not need to be money, but it's prevelant in this day and age as it was back in Jesus' day. How can we help the poor if we're poor too? Having money readily available to give by umption of the Holy Spirit is a pleasant and rewarding experience and should not be neglected in my eyes.

Hi halfy. Thanks for that explanation. I've heard the argument many times before, where one asks, "how can we help the poor if we don't have money". I think that's a fair enough question and it's not really money in itself that I am against.

It's true that money really can be used to help others. I've never said it can't. Even Jesus used money at times.

But what we can see is that he did not spend his time working to get more money. Neither did his followers. In fact, we can see several examples of his followers actually quitting their jobs to follow him and become "fishers of men".

They didn't stop working, but they did start working for a different motivation; one where they would help people in order to show the love of God and not because they expected something in return.

What God wants is for us to sort out our own attitudes, first. Then, once we've decided to do it his way, it's up to him to provide the means and resources to help those who are in need.

People usually have so many questions, and so much skepticism about this, because it's so different. They fear what may happen if they leave the comfort and security of their paid employment where they force others to pay them for their help. A good majority of them don't even like their jobs, but they do it anyway because they are afraid.

That's why Jesus told us to consider the birds and flowers, because they don't spend their time making money, and yet God still takes care of them. He mentioned all the pagans of the world, how they chase after these things, but that we should not be like them. Yeah, Jesus actually said this stuff.

 

[candle glow]

The turn the other cheek, was a kind response. May I do likewise and learn that not evryone wants fellowship from me.

Thanks for that, Nora. Would you like to respond to some of the issues now. What do you think about those teachings of Jesus I keep mentioning? Any thoughts?

 

[thesunisout]

Sunny, this is what I said regarding your comments:


And this is what you said:


Where did I misrepresent you? Talk about the boy who cried wolf!

Maybe you will decide to answer the question now? You said:



Where did Jesus teach that people should withhold their help from others UNLESS they get paid for it?

Is there any particular reason why you will not answer this question?

Candle, I asked you three different questions and you replied to one of them. What you do is cherry pick from my replies and ignore the substance of what I said. Whatever is inconvenient to your position you ignore. There have been many times now where you simply made something up in regards to what scripture said, but when the scripture was produced and the point refuted, you just move on to something else as if it were never said. Do you care about the integrity of scripture or do you just see it as a platform to push your agenda?

Paul said he worked for money for two reasons:

1. So he wouldn't be a burden on others
2. To help the poor

He had no problem earning money to support his ministry and the poor. I'll repeat the justification Paul gave for the second or third time now:

Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

He reaffirmed this principle in Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

You keep framing the question dishonestly:

"Where did Jesus teach that people should withhold their help from others UNLESS they get paid for it?"

People who are seeking to buy goods and services are not looking for help, they are looking to pay someone for their labor. Therefore, Paul was not "withholding" help to get paid, he was being duly compensated for his work. Jesus never taught against that, and He Himself was a carpenter and the son of a carpenter. Yes, Jesus had a trade; do you think He did all of His work for free or do you think He helped support His family?

Instead of going back and forth about this, why don't you share with us what this lifestyle looks like. Tell us how you practice how you preach. Since you're saying it is wrong to work for money, tell us how you support yourself. Where does your food, water, and clothing come from? How about your electricity? You have a computer and other electronics I presume..where did those come from?

 

[candle glow]

Hi Sunny. You type lots of stuff and quite often you don't include reference to the teachings of Jesus, so yeah, for the sake of brevity and the sake of bringing the topic back to the teachings of Jesus, I do sometimes choose to respond to what I feel are the most relevant points. I don't think you should get so upset about it.

People who are seeking to buy goods and services are not looking for help, they are looking to pay someone for their labor.

Yes, believe it or not, this is an actual quote from sunny. Sunny, are you saying that when someone needs a plumber to fix the toilet, they don't really want his help, but rather, they're just looking for someone to give their money to?

That doesn't sound particularly rational, sunny and I think that's what almost always happens when people try to argue against the teachings of Jesus. Because he really is the son of God and because he really does have the answers to life's problems, people who argue against obedience to him just end up sounding wonky, (like your above sentence).

Jesus never taught against that, and He Himself was a carpenter and the son of a carpenter. Yes, Jesus had a trade; do you think He did all of His work for free or do you think He helped support His family?

Okay, well at least we're talking about Jesus now. Thanks for getting back to the topic.

Actually, Jesus DID teach that we should not force people to pay us for our help and he taught that we cannot work for two masters. He said God is one master and mammon (money and the things money can buy) is the other master.

He told us to consider the birds and the flowers specifically because they do not work for money, and yet God is still able to take care of them. Our new job is to work for love and Jesus said that God will take care of the things we need.

He's talking about a new motivation, where we give our time to help others just because they need help, and not because we want something from them.

You can't say you are working for love when you with hold that love until you get paid for it. That is what Jesus was getting at. Just work for love.

 

[thesunisout]

Hi Sunny. You type lots of stuff and quite often you don't include reference to the teachings of Jesus, so yeah, for the sake of brevity and the sake of bringing the topic back to the teachings of Jesus, I do sometimes choose to respond to what I feel are the most relevant points. I don't think you should get so upset about it.

I always include references to scripture, and what is the difference between what is taught by Jesus and what is taught by the Spirit of Jesus inspiring one of the apostles? Do you think that the teachings of the Holy Spirit through Paul are fallible and somehow inferior to what Jesus taught?

Yes, believe it or not, this is an actual quote from sunny. Sunny, are you saying that when someone needs a plumber to fix the toilet, they don't really want his help, but rather, they're just looking for someone to give their money to?

No, I am saying they're not looking for a handout. Most people feel uncomfortable not compensating someone for their work. A person calling a plumber doesn't expect a handout and has no problem compensating someone for their time.

That doesn't sound particularly rational, sunny and I think that's what almost always happens when people try to argue against the teachings of Jesus. Because he really is the son of God and because he really does have the answers to life's problems, people who argue against obedience to him just end up sounding wonky, (like your above sentence).

What is wonky is your interpretation because I was using your definition of help, which is someone looking for a handout.

Again..Jesus Himself was a carpenter and the son of a carpenter. Yes, Jesus had a trade; do you think He did all of His work for free or do you think He helped support His family?

Okay, well at least we're talking about Jesus now. Thanks for getting back to the topic.

Actually, Jesus DID teach that we should not force people to pay us for our help and he taught that we cannot work for two masters. He said God is one master and mammon (money and the things money can buy) is the other master.

You can repeat it 1000 times but your interpretation of Matthew 6:24 is in error, and I've already explained why multiple times.

He told us to consider the birds and the flowers specifically because they do not work for money, and yet God is still able to take care of them. Our new job is to work for love and Jesus said that God will take care of the things we need.

He's talking about a new motivation, where we give our time to help others just because they need help, and not because we want something from them.

You can't say you are working for love when you with hold that love until you get paid for it. That is what Jesus was getting at. Just work for love.

What Jesus was getting at is that He comes first, and when we put Him first, everything else will flow out of that relationship, including all of our basic needs. What it doesn't say is how God will choose to fulfill those needs. God may choose to fulfill those needs through a job and there is nothing in the word of God which says He would not. For you to say you know He wouldn't has no basis in scripture.

Now, since I've answered your questions, I would appreciate it if you will answer mine:

Since this is basically all I ever see you talk about on CF, how about you tell us tell what this looks like in your life? How do you support yourself? Where does your food, water, and clothing come from? How about your electricity? How do you get the things you need including your computer and the other electronics you have?

 

[candle glow]

No, I am saying they're not looking for a handout. Most people feel uncomfortable not compensating someone for their work. A person calling a plumber doesn't expect a handout and has no problem compensating someone for their time.

Hmm, I suppose you can call it "handouts" if you want, though I get the impression that you mean something negative by it.

I'm talking about people sharing with one another. Why do you see that as a bad thing?

Also, I think you are wrong about "most people". "Most people" would rather NOT have to pay for the stuff they want, but because of fear they spend their lives working in jobs they probably don't like anyway, to get money so that they can pay.

It's often referred to as the rat race, although I realize that some people probably do like thier jobs.

Again..Jesus Himself was a carpenter and the son of a carpenter. Yes, Jesus had a trade;

Nah, you are just assuming that because it suits your bias. Jesus probably helped out around the carpentry shop while he was living there, but there is no indication that he forced other people to pay him for his help.

When he was a boy, he ran away from his parent's convoy and they found him back in the temple teaching adults about the things of God. When he parents found him they scolded him and he said, "why were you looking for me, didn't you know what I would be doing my father's business"?

Jesus knew who is real employer was, and it wasn't Joseph.

But, EVEN IF he was working for money at Joseph's business, what happened when he started his ministry? He obviously quit his job to go into preaching the gospel full time, and he taught others to do the same.

What Jesus was getting at is that He comes first, and when we put Him first, everything else will flow out of that relationship, including all of our basic needs. What it doesn't say is how God will choose to fulfill those needs. God may choose to fulfill those needs through a job and there is nothing in the word of God which says He would not.

Yeah, you've mostly got it right, here, except for the part about God telling people to go work for money when Jesus already said that we cannot work for two masters. He said God is one master and mammon (money and the things money can buy) is the other master.

To be clear, it's not really money that is the issue here. Jesus uses the term mammon to describe money AND the thing money can buy. In other words, if we were talking about working for food itself, there would still be a problem.

That's because Jesus is trying to affect our motivations. You can't say you are working for love if the only reason you help someone is because you expect something, and that you would withhold your help if they don't pay you.

You can never argue that away, sunny. Thank God!

 

[Omena]

It's unfortunate that society has this mindset that the world simply wouldn't work without money, or that if it did, we would be living in the stone ages. I think money gives people the false impression that they are independent, whereas in reality, with or without money, we all need each other. When we accept that fact, we realize that money doesn't actually do anything...it's just bits of paper and metal.

Jesus probably didn't see the coins as evil, but it was people's attitude towards those coins that was bad. People see money as a necessity; the only way to survive, but that's not how life is. God is the only way to survive, and the world has forgotten that (even the Christians).

Imagine you are God, and you've given life to the whole world, supplied them with lots of food, water, shelter, and clothing (because without God none of these things would exist). Then people start making little coins out of metal, and they tell the whole world that they can't have any of these necessities (that you provided) without trading these coins. Wouldn't that be insulting? People are being denied the right to food and clothing because they don't have enough of these stupid little bits of metal.

 

[Norah63]

Why did Jesus do the miracle of a coin in the fish?

 

[candle glow]

Good question Nora. Do you want to start us off on some possible reasons why he did that for Peter? Some relevant questions are, what was the context of the situation?

Why did Peter need the coin in the first place? I'm looking forward to your explanation, Nora.