Are you allowed to say it?

[Alithis]

and also on topic .. are we allowed to say it ..
that would depend upon whose authority we are standing at the time

in the book of acts they were forbidden to say it - so they prayed for boldness and then said it all the more lol.

sometimes i have felt fear that it will backfire and i will get fired or something ..but that's only the enemy trying to silence me through fear .
but then i don't speak to everyone .. sometimes i share of my faith in a conversational way - but always the lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit will tell me ..."mike speak to this one about me" .. and so i'm learning to listen and because the direction makes it an act of loving obedience -with that comes a loving acceptance that the cost is of no consequence and at that point i lay down my life to obey .

 

[HalfFull]

and also on topic .. are we allowed to say it ..
that would depend upon whose authority we are standing at the time

in the book of acts they were forbidden to say it - so they prayed for boldness and then said it all the more lol.

sometimes i have felt fear that it will backfire and i will get fired or something ..but that's only the enemy trying to silence me through fear .
but then i don't speak to everyone .. sometimes i share of my faith in a conversational way - but always the lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit will tell me ..."mike speak to this one about me" .. and so i'm learning to listen and because the direction makes it an act of loving obedience -with that comes a loving acceptance that the cost is of no consequence and at that point i lay down my life to obey .

I was going to say much of the same things you said. If you're afraid of getting fired o scolded for speaking of God, then who is your Lord? Did he not say He didn't give us a spirit of fear but of power? Did Jesus not say to not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has troubles of its own? Did he not say do not worry about your clothes, or what you may eat, because He's got you covered? Let me ask you this... If just one person heard the gospel at your workplace and converted, changed their life, and you ended being fired or made fun of, wouldn't it be worth it? What good is an idle, closed-mouth Christian? Did he not say 'go, and preach the good news to all nations'? Maybe God put you there to flip that workplace upside down and save some souls! Well, I choose to have faith in a God that has my back, especially if I'm going around telling people about Him. He's bigger than your 'rule' at work, have faith!

 

[thesunisout]

It's good to work for nothing for the sake of the gospel, that isn't a point of contention. However, Paul gave us the example of working for money so we wouldn't be a burden on others, and if we don't work, we don't eat. If you're not earning any money, where are you getting your food, shelter, etc? Are you getting a government check? Are you living off of your parents? If you're a burden on other people and using this ideal as excuse not to work, you're really living in idleness. You are demonstrating the opposite of love by being a burden on your loved ones, or your nation.

There is also the point that it takes money to do things in this world. It takes money to feed people, clothe and vaccinate people, to build wells, to run hospitals and buy medicine, to fly supplies all over the world, to print bibles, and to hire secular resources. It takes quite a bit of money to send missionaries all over the world. Sometimes it takes a whole lot of money. Where does it come from?

 

[Alithis]

I was going to say much of the same things you said. If you're afraid of getting fired o scolded for speaking of God, then who is your Lord? Did he not say He didn't give us a spirit of fear but of power? Did Jesus not say to not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has troubles of its own? Did he not say do not worry about your clothes, or what you may eat, because He's got you covered? Let me ask you this... If just one person heard the gospel at your workplace and converted, changed their life, and you ended being fired or made fun of, wouldn't it be worth it? What good is an idle, closed-mouth Christian? Did he not say 'go, and preach the good news to all nations'? Maybe God put you there to flip that workplace upside down and save some souls! Well, I choose to have faith in a God that has my back, especially if I'm going around telling people about Him. He's bigger than your 'rule' at work, have faith!

lol yes AMEN

 

[peebly63]

I was talking with a friend yesterday about a T-shirt I printed with a Christian message. He joked with me that it could be my "on the job witness" but said that I'd probably not be allowed to wear it in a normal work environment anyway.

I joked that I'd have to be content to just keep saying "God bless you" as my on the job witness, but then I wondered if there are any jobs left where people are allowed to talk about God at all.

Are you allowed to say "God bless you" at your place of work?

we are in the enemies play ground, if they can stop people wearing crosses what will come next I wonder?

 

[candle glow]

It's good to work for nothing for the sake of the gospel, that isn't a point of contention. However...

If you ever want to know how a person really feels abut a particular topic, look for the "but" or "however".

It's like saying, "Marriage requires faithfulness; no one is arguing with that, however...."

Why the however? Are you going to give an argument which is different to the nice thing you just said about faithfulness?

And yeah, that's exactly what sunny ended up doing in his arguments against working for love vs working for money.

It takes money to feed people, clothe and vaccinate people, to build wells, to run hospitals and buy medicine, to fly supplies all over the world, to print bibles, and to hire secular resources. It takes quite a bit of money to send missionaries all over the world. Sometimes it takes a whole lot of money. Where does it come from?

This is the "but". "It's good to work for nothing but the sake of the gospel, but...money money money money money money money etc..."

Working for love is the "fantasy" which sounds very nice, while people like sunny know better than that kind of foolishness. He knows that nothing can be done without money, but he still needs to give lip service to the IDEALISM of love. That's why he uses the "however" in his opening paragraph.

But, money never created anything. Money does not create resources. It does not make plants grow. It does not make the rain fall nor does it create all the people who manipulate all those resources into food or clothing etc.

Money is what motivates people to work; it is not what enables them to work. What we need is a new motivation for WHY people work and Jesus provided that motivation. He called it the kingdom of Heaven where people help each other just because they want to, and not because they believe they will die if they don't demand payment from those they help.

He said that we should not let fear about food and clothing stop us from trusting him and following his teachings about working for love.

Sunny, when I read your posts about the importance of money, what I see is a lot of fear. I see a person who has come to genuinely believe that money is the source of life. Your very strong belief that you would die without money is evidence of that.

We will never even be able to see the kingdom of heaven when we are constantly blinded by a belief that we can't do it without money.

 

[candle glow]

sometimes i have felt fear that it will backfire and i will get fired or something ..but that's only the enemy trying to silence me through fear .
but then i don't speak to everyone .. sometimes i share of my faith in a conversational way - but always the lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit will tell me ..."mike speak to this one about me" .. and so i'm learning to listen and because the direction makes it an act of loving obedience -with that comes a loving acceptance that the cost is of no consequence and at that point i lay down my life to obey .

A "fear of being fired" or some other disciplinary action is a good warning sign that there is a problem. However, even if you do have a "really cool boss" or whatever, the lesson about trying to serve two masters is still there.

As will all of Jesus' teachings, it's not just a black/white teaching; there is a spirit behind them, a REASON for the teaching.

In the case of not being able to serve two masters, Jesus said one master is God and the other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy).

The reason we cannot work for both is because they represent different values. The kingdom of heaven is about sharing with one another and showing our love for others through our willingness to help them just because they need help, and not because we want something from them in exchange.

The system of man is different (i.e working for wages). Yes, man invented money. That system makes us believe we will die if we don't demand payment from one another. It creates an atmosphere where people don't help one another just because people need help. It's a system which promotes fear and mistrust.

It's completely opposite. You can't say you are working for love if you tell someone, "it will cost you this much for my help". That's why Jesus told us to consider the birds and flowers, they don't demand payment from God; they just do what God tells them to do and God takes care of them.

If you can't handle the basic concepts behind the issue of serving two masters, then you'll probably miss all the ways that God really can provide for us if we just work for him first. A fear of "what if I starve to death" will always blind us to what God really wants to show us.

 

[Norah63]

Thesunisout posted it very well.
Problems only arise about labor when one tries to discern anothers motives.
If someone sees money as evil, not just a tool, then they must live without using money.
We get very few details how this is done, but much judgement. So many have asked how the internet is gotten. Is there rent or groceries. No information yet.
What is given freely we should give freely. Share please, how to get by without touching money (with cesear's picture on it.)?

 

[candle glow]

If someone sees money as evil, not just a tool, then they must live without using money.

Hi Nora. This is part of the misunderstanding you always seem to have when responding to this topic. I wonder if you even read what I write, or if there is something in your spirit that just forbids you from understanding.

It's been said over and over again that money in itself is not the issue. It's what money represents. It's the motivation for why people work for money. Those are the issues in question and the issues I keep dealing with, but I never see any response from you about that.

You always go back to, "you think money is evil" and ignore the spiritual lessons and motivations behind why people spend their lives working for little bits of paper and metal when Jesus said there is something much better for us to give our time to.

We get very few details how this is done,

That's probably because there is no blue print or guarantee on all those little details. There is no concrete plan which can satisfy all your fears. You feel comfortable with working for money because all the details are fixed. You give a certain number of hours to your employer and your employer gives you a certain amount of dollars for those hours.

But you can't manipulate God like that, so you are not comfortable with his way of doing it. It always comes back to fear and "what if's". Jesus already knew that, though. That's why he quite explicitly told us not to allow worry about food and clothing stop us from stepping out in faith.

It takes no faith to work for money. Every atheist in the world does it and quite often they do it a lot better than Christians.

What the atheist will NOT do is to follow the teachings of Jesus about working for a new motivation which is completely different to the motivations behind working for money.

Faith vs fear. Which do you serve? Your actions will speak much louder than words.

 

[Norah63]

It, (money) must represent what you fear. It doesn't cause me any worry.
Have never worked for money, never will. You just don't read earlier posts from anyone that you can't agree with. May you find the peace you seek.

 

[candle glow]

Have never worked for money, never will. You just don't read earlier posts from anyone that you can't agree with. May you find the peace you seek.

I've never made this about you personally or your personal motivations for why you work. I've talked about principles and generalities based on my personal experiences and the teachings of Jesus.

If you feel personally judged by what I've said then that's something you need to work out for yourself and not blame me for.

It, (money) must represent what you fear. It doesn't cause me any worry.

The reason I bring up fear is the same reason Jesus brought it up. Maybe you know better than he did. He knew that what he was saying was radical and very different. He knew that he was asking people to do something very extreme by forsaking the worldly system of wages, and instead to work for Heavens system of gifts (i.e. sharing with each other).

That's why he made a very clear and deliberate point to tell us that we should not allow worry to stop us from stepping out in faith when it comes to working for love vs working for money.

Invariably, this fear is exactly the reasoning people fall back on when arguing against obedience to Jesus, and they do so thinking that they are making such a wonderful point about the realities of life. Look at sunny's post again.

What about food, what about clothing, what about internet, what about this and that etc.... It's all about a dependency on money. We can't do anything without money money money money. Of course he would be afraid of a teaching about no longer working to get more money.

Anyone who believes that we cannot live without money would naturally be afraid of not working to get more of it.

But it goes deeper than just little bits of paper and metal. It's not money in itself that is bad. It's why people work to get more of it which is bad. When we believe that we will die if we don't get something in exchange for our love, then we've made that thing into an idol.

I don't see a problem with people using money; even Jesus used it. But there IS a problem with the attitude that we must work for it; we must have it or we will die. Can you see the difference?

 

[HalfFull]

Candle glow, amen.

So many people say, 'if you don't work, you don't eat.' Hmm, as far as I know, Elijah didn't work a typical job that has any monetary gain, yet he was still fed, clothed, and taken care of. John the baptist lived his life in the desert, eating locusts and wild honey, until the time he was called to work and prepare the way of the Lord. Did any of the Levites work in the traditional sense?

That being said, laziness is many times brought up as evil and the tool of the enemy, so I'm not saying do nothing with your time. It also says in proverbs that diligent hands bring wealth. Is it monetary or spiritual wealth? Both are applicable.

So, you must work, and like Jesus said, not serve money. I am not against working to obtain money... But why are you working for the money? Is it for selfish desires? Or are you getting it so that you can give more to the kingdom of God, to feed and clothe the poor, another command from Jesus?

Jesus said He'll never forsake you, He'll never leave you. He also said that not a sparrow falls to the ground without Him noticing, and you're much more valuable than a sparrow. Don't think that if you happened to run out of money He'd take care of you, providing you have faith? Do you know, really know, just how loved and important you are to God?

If you're worried about your 'livelyhood' when it comes to money, you're just living in fear. I've been without money, very little, and comfortable. And all those times I had faith that God would provide, and He did. It's not about money. It's about your Father, who loves you and will always be there for you.

Funny thing is, the majority of people who worry so much about money are the ones who usually (not always) lack it. The moment you start to care less about money and about serving God, using money to bless more than to receive, is when God will give you more money, because He can trust you with it. Amazing, right?

 

[r21c]

And if you are wrong about a creator, which I believe all religious people are, then what are you? Deluded.

How did this creator provide for you? What is so special about you that it provided you with what you needed?

 

[Mazzaroth]

[deleted]

 

[HalfFull]

The same thing that's special about you, r21c, the fact He loves us regardless! You are extremely loved by God and I love you too man. Not because I know you, or I'm homosexual, but because you're another human being with wants and needs and desires, with a brain and intelligence, who deserves to be loved. And you are thought of very highly in the eyes of my God.

I wish I could express it better, and actions speak louder than words, but what is something you want? And something that you would classify as a 'miracle'? I'll pray and ask for a miracle, and you'll get it. I will ask Him to show himself to you in a big way, and He will. Why or how? Just because He loves you, man. You can PM me if you like.

How does God provide? The very fact I'm alive, fed, clothed, and breathing talking to someone over the internet is provision enough for me. In fact, just God alone is provision for me. How can I say that? Because when I pray and have faith, He answers. Because the more that I give out of my heart, God gives back to me so much more than I gave away. Because I know He cares for me, in a much deeper capacity than human beings are even able to love.

 

[thesunisout]

Sunny, when I read your posts about the importance of money, what I see is a lot of fear. I see a person who has come to genuinely believe that money is the source of life. Your very strong belief that you would die without money is evidence of that.

We will never even be able to see the kingdom of heaven when we are constantly blinded by a belief that we can't do it without money.

Well, you're not reading me right, because I am content with or without money, and I do work for free. I do what the Lord calls me to do, and He always provides.

My "but" is based on scripture..you are rambling on about this and not addressing the scripture I have provided. Tell me why Paul told us to work for money so we wouldn't be a burden on people? Tell me why Paul said if you don't work, you don't eat?

 

[mottie]

Actions speak louder than words, in our work its what we do or dont do that really speaks to our work colleagues.

 

[Norah63]

Sort of like the, living by faith, or conspiracy thread. All the same. There are certain teaching of Jesus that the focus is on.

 

[candle glow]

My "but" is based on scripture..you are rambling on about this and not addressing the scripture I have provided. Tell me why Paul told us to work for money so we wouldn't be a burden on people?

You won't find any recorded scripture with Paul teaching that people should use their time to work for money. What you are doing with Pauls' writings is a distortion, and I think it speaks volumes that you choose to focus on Paul and totally ignore the cornerstone.

Paul had trouble with the Corinthians not providing for his physical needs, even though he was shepherding them. He obviously felt uncomfortable about this and decided that he should go get a job working for money to provide for himself, thinking that he should not "burden" them.

He later realized that he'd made a mistake by not rebuking them and teaching them the importance of taking care of one another. THAT is what's recorded in the accounts of Paul's life.

The problem, for you, sunny, is that you've become so brainwashed that any time you see the word "work" you automatically associate it with money. Any time you see the word "work" in the Bible, you automatially assume it means for money, against all the context and all reason to the contrary.

Here is a good example, from your post:

Tell me why Paul said if you don't work, you don't eat?

Who was Paul even talking to when he wrote this? He was talking to communal churches; groups of Christians who had already forsaken all and were living together. We can see that from Acts 2 and 4.

They were living by faith, working for love. It's a situation which can easily be abused; lazy people who come into a communal setting, thinking that "working for love" means that everyone else has a responsibility to take care of them.

In order to deal with this problem, Paul gave them an extremely good rule; if they don't want to work preaching the gospel or helping others in some practical way, then don't feed them. Eventually, the lazy people leave and all that's left are the red-hot warriors for God; those who really care about ACTING on what Jesus told them to do.

But luke-warm people who want the promises and blessings Jesus talked about, but don't want the discipline or sacrifice. come up with these twisted arguments about how it's really all about money money money money money.

 

[thesunisout]

You won't find any recorded scripture with Paul teaching that people should use their time to work for money. What you are doing with Pauls' writings is a distortion, and I think it speaks volumes that you choose to focus on Paul and totally ignore the cornerstone.

Actually, you do find Paul teaching that people should earn a living:

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.

Paul instructed us to imitate him and not to be a burden on anyone and pay for the bread that we eat. He commanded that anyone not doing so should be earning their own living. You are drawing some kind of distinction between Paul and Jesus as if they were teaching two different things, when the teaching and writings of Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Do the Holy Spirit and Jesus disagree or could it be that your interpretation of Matthew 6:24 is inaccurate? Could it be that Matthew 6:24 is not telling us to never work for money but to not make money our idol in place of God?

Paul had trouble with the Corinthians not providing for his physical needs, even though he was shepherding them. He obviously felt uncomfortable about this and decided that he should go get a job working for money to provide for himself, thinking that he should not "burden" them.

He later realized that he'd made a mistake by not rebuking them and teaching them the importance of taking care of one another. THAT is what's recorded in the accounts of Paul's life.

Is this the text you are referring to?

2Co 11:5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.
2Co 11:6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.
2Co 11:7 Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge?
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you.
2Co 11:9 And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way.
2Co 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia.

Do you think that Paul, in defending himself against the accusations of false apostles, was saying he made a mistake and regretted what he did when he pledges to continue doing it in verses 9 and 10? Clearly the statement he makes in verse 7 is ironic and not an admission of sin. He does not regret doing it at all, but vows to continue to work so that he isn't a burden to people and can preach the gospel free of charge. Does Paul not have enough faith to believe that God will supply him with free food if he doesn't work?

The problem, for you, sunny, is that you've become so brainwashed that any time you see the word "work" you automatically associate it with money. Any time you see the word "work" in the Bible, you automatially assume it means for money, against all the context and all reason to the contrary.

John 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

I think the problem here is that your preoccupation with this issue causes you to leave the weightier matters, like loving your brother, undone.

Here is a good example, from your post:

Who was Paul even talking to when he wrote this? He was talking to communal churches; groups of Christians who had already forsaken all and were living together. We can see that from Acts 2 and 4.

They were living by faith, working for love. It's a situation which can easily be abused; lazy people who come into a communal setting, thinking that "working for love" means that everyone else has a responsibility to take care of them.

In order to deal with this problem, Paul gave them an extremely good rule; if they don't want to work preaching the gospel or helping others in some practical way, then don't feed them. Eventually, the lazy people leave and all that's left are the red-hot warriors for God; those who really care about ACTING on what Jesus told them to do.

That isn't what the text says. Please read it in full; it says that they should imitate Pauls example by working to pay for their own bread so they wouldn't be a burden, and that they should all earn their own living. You seem to have invented this interpretation and pulled it out of thin air because there is nothing in the verses that support it. If you say that's not true, show us where in 2 Thessalonians 3 that supports that interpretation.

But luke-warm people who want the promises and blessings Jesus talked about, but don't want the discipline or sacrifice. come up with these twisted arguments about how it's really all about money money money money money.

Are you saying I am a luke-warm person who wants the promises and blessing Jesus talked about, but doesn't want the discipline and sacrifice and so I have dreamed up twisted arguments because all I am interested in is money? I love you candle glow, and I say out of love that you should examine what is your heart towards me, because what is coming out of it is hateful. I can guarantee you that Jesus is far more interested in your heart attitude towards me and others who disagree with you rather than who is right about this issue.