Are you allowed to say it?

[Geoff m]

candle glow, you make sense

 

[Alithis]

candle glow, you make sense

yes but I understand you also do not believe in anything to do with the Holy spirit

 

[Alithis]

I've never made this about you personally or your personal motivations for why you work. I've talked about principles and generalities based on my personal experiences and the teachings of Jesus.

If you feel personally judged by what I've said then that's something you need to work out for yourself and not blame me for.



The reason I bring up fear is the same reason Jesus brought it up. Maybe you know better than he did. He knew that what he was saying was radical and very different. He knew that he was asking people to do something very extreme by forsaking the worldly system of wages, and instead to work for Heavens system of gifts (i.e. sharing with each other).

That's why he made a very clear and deliberate point to tell us that we should not allow worry to stop us from stepping out in faith when it comes to working for love vs working for money.

Invariably, this fear is exactly the reasoning people fall back on when arguing against obedience to Jesus, and they do so thinking that they are making such a wonderful point about the realities of life. Look at sunny's post again.

What about food, what about clothing, what about internet, what about this and that etc.... It's all about a dependency on money. We can't do anything without money money money money. Of course he would be afraid of a teaching about no longer working to get more money.

Anyone who believes that we cannot live without money would naturally be afraid of not working to get more of it.

But it goes deeper than just little bits of paper and metal. It's not money in itself that is bad. It's why people work to get more of it which is bad. When we believe that we will die if we don't get something in exchange for our love, then we've made that thing into an idol.

I don't see a problem with people using money; even Jesus used it. But there IS a problem with the attitude that we must work for it; we must have it or we will die. Can you see the difference?

three things - one is that the "LOVE" of money is bad.
not working and receiving wage .. as God considers it an evil if you do not pay someone for their labors .

second .. i thought you were not trying to impose on other what God is doing in your life

and third : you keep quoting sunny's posts and twisting his words .. you must stop doing that - it is dishonest .
you are both right .. the issue comes down to obeying the Holy Spirit in your own lives .

 

[Alithis]

Candle glow, amen.

So many people say, 'if you don't work, you don't eat.' Hmm, as far as I know, Elijah didn't work a typical job that has any monetary gain, yet he was still fed, clothed, and taken care of. by a man and his wife who set up a room for him - a man with a Job and others who labored in their own lives and had faith

John the baptist lived his life in the desert, eating locusts and wild honey, until the time he was called to work and prepare the way of the Lord.- and he was also filed with the Holy Spirit while still in his mothers womb which emphasizes the importance of trusting that God Knows what he is doing in each individuals life..did Mary and Joseph also eat locusts in the desert ?nope ,Joseph was a carpenter with a Job Did any of the Levites work in the traditional sense?yes- they arrived at a set time preformed duties and returned home at thier shifts end

That being said, laziness is many times brought up as evil and the tool of the enemy, so I'm not saying do nothing with your time. It also says in proverbs that diligent hands bring wealth. Is it monetary or spiritual wealth? Both are applicable.yes they are

So, you must work, and like Jesus said, not serve money. I am not against working to obtain money... But why are you working for the money? Is it for selfish desires? Or are you getting it so that you can give more to the kingdom of God, to feed and clothe the poor, another command from Jesus?some here have been trying to say that working for it at all is wrong .. but with an imbalanced view

Jesus said He'll never forsake you, He'll never leave you. He also said that not a sparrow falls to the ground without Him noticing, and you're much more valuable than a sparrow. Don't think that if you happened to run out of money He'd take care of you, providing you have faith? Do you know, really know, just how loved and important you are to God? wonderful words ,AMEN

If you're worried about your 'livelyhood' when it comes to money, you're just living in fear. I've been without money, very little, and comfortable. And all those times I had faith that God would provide, and He did. It's not about money. It's about your Father, who loves you and will always be there for you.again - amen. but i do wish folk who post such comments would add how many dependents they have under thier roof - it is rather easy to live for the lord without pay if you are a single person in a community of folks doing the same -it actually takes very little faith to do so

Funny thing is, the majority of people who worry so much about money are the ones who usually (not always) lack it. The moment you start to care less about money and about serving God, using money to bless more than to receive, is when God will give you more money, because He can trust you with it. Amazing, right?

perhaps - i have found the ones who have more - worry more

as for me i am wealthy beyond wildest imagination- but , what do i mean by that

-------------------------------------------------
Abide in faith - Reese Howells ,intercessor
obey the Holy Spirit - Evan Roberts, revivalist
Only believe - Smith Wigglsworth, evangalist

 

[candle glow]

Paul instructed us to imitate him and not to be a burden on anyone and pay for the bread that we eat.

The word "pay" is a translational issue. You won't find that in the KJV. It's a growing trend towards watering down the gospel and making it more palatable for luke-warm Christians who can't imagine a world where people work to help each other just because they want to and not because they expect something in return.

It's the same with the phrase "earn a living" or the implication that any time the word "work" is used, it's automatically talking about demanding payment from people before we will help them. It's so totally anti-Christian to insert these implications into the lessons being taught.

You are drawing some kind of distinction between Paul and Jesus as if they were teaching two different things, when the teaching and writings of Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The irony is that this is exactly what you are doing. I talked about Jesus' sermon on the mount where he quite clearly says that we cannot work for God and mammon (money and the things money can buy) at the same time without cheating on one or the other.

He told us to consider the birds and flowers specifically because they do not work for money and yet God still takes care of them. He told us NOT to be like the rest of the world chasing after all these material things and that we should not let fear for these things stop us from serving God's kingdom first.

Your response was to point to Paul and basically say, "see, paul said if we don't work we shouldn't eat" and you've ASSUMED that Paul was talking about working for money, because it conforms to your bias to do so.

Paul was writing to a Christian community who were living together and working together full time (as described in Acts 2 and 4 as well as defined by the example Jesus and his followers gave, too). The context is obviously about the work of the church community (i.e. preaching the gospel, social outreach programs, household chores/administrative duties, group studies, etc...)

If you don't want to work (in the church) then you should not eat (in the church). It has nothing to do with Christians forcing people to pay them before they will offer their help.

Really, you are the one pitting Paul against Jesus.

 

[candle glow]

candle glow, you make sense

Thanks for that, Geoff. I hope to hear more from you if you feel inspired to share.

Do you think that Paul, in defending himself against the accusations of false apostles, was saying he made a mistake and regretted what he did when he pledges to continue doing it in verses 9 and 10?

Paul had more problems with the Corinthians than he did with any of the other churches. At some point there appeared to be some contention over material provision and who should be doing what about it.

Paul was a traveling preacher who was living by faith, depending on the support of other Christians and it appears the Corinthians were not providing for Paul, even though he was providing for them spiritually.

Because he was having so much trouble getting through to them, he decided that he would go out and work for money to support himself, rather than lump one more criticism on them (i.e. about the material provision).

But he was wrong. He did have the right to criticize them for their stingy attitudes and he should not have gone off thinking that he needed to work for money to take care of himself.

This is what he says in the chapter just after the verses you posted, for a fuller context:

2COR 12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

2COR 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not your's but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

It seems he's being a bit sarcastic with the apology, because even though his intentions were good (i.e. not wanting to overburden them with many criticisms) he still did the wrong thing by not correcting them on this issue.

Everyone makes mistakes, even Paul. You can also read about this story at the beginning of Acts 18, when Paul travels to Corinth. It says he went out to make tents, but when his buddies Timothy and Silas showed up he was "pressed in the spirit" and went to preach the gospel full time.

In other words, seeing his spiritual friends again helped him to snap out of it and he went back to preaching full time.

 

[Alithis]

the lord Jesus said you cannot "serve " both God and mammon as you will either hate one and love the other or love one and hate the other.

or to be exact......

No man can serve two
masters: for either he will hate
the one, and love the other; or
else he will hold to the one,
and despise the other. Ye
cannot serve God and
mammon.

Now - i think we all see what you are saying and in essence we do not disagree.

but it is good to balance your view to a place of perfect harmony in the truth of the written word and the truth of the word that became flesh (who is Jesus ,the Christ.)
For they are one and agree.

so consider if you will this scenario ... the lord Jesus -by the Holy Spirit ,tells a man to go to a farmer and ask for work and the farmer will pay you .
So he obeys ..and goes and the farmer gives him work to do and pays him.
Then the Lord Jesus tells him to take those earnings and give them to another person who is in great need and has been praying for an answer to those needs .So that man obeys the lord Jesus and does so .

Now at what stage is that man serving mammon?
at no stage .for he is in service to the Lord Jesus by his obedience .

So you see the point is you cannot take a singular aspect and impose it on others because in so doing you may hinder them in their obedience to what the Lord Jesus is telling them to do

 

[candle glow]

one is that the "LOVE" of money is bad.
not working and receiving wage .. as God considers it an evil if you do not pay someone for their labors .

It's evil if we don't work for money? Really? It's just so totally opposite to what Jesus actually said. The complete opposite. No wonder Jesus said, "the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone".

We show who we love by who we give our time to. Who are you really giving your time to when you demand payment for your help?

Also, can you show the teachings from Jesus (remember, our Lord and savior, the cornerstone?) where he says that God expects us to demand payment for our help?

you are both right .. the issue comes down to obeying the Holy Spirit in your own lives .

Not really. What I see happening here is someone TEACHING others that it's okay to be a Christian and disregard what Jesus taught about serving two masters. If sunny kept these teachings to himself I wouldn't have any problem with him choosing to give his life to working for money; it's his choice. (though I'd still be a bit sad about that)

What sunny, (and you) are teaching about God actually wanting us to demand payment before we will show our love to others is a lie. It's nothing personal against you two; it's your teachings that I am addressing.

 

[Alithis]

tut tut ..your twisting words again .... but anyone who reads the post you refer to ,will see plainly i did not say what you imply . I asked you to consider it .. not dishonestly reword it .

 

[candle glow]

Hi Michael,

It's probably better if you pm me with your grievances (and provide some evidence for them) so that the thread doesn't get bogged down in fighting. thanks.

 

[Alithis]

i have no grievance-just a request : please have the courtesy to quote another persons post in its entirety.
as it is a misrepresentation to post excerpts out of context to a persons whole post .

---------------------------------------------------
repost:

Now - i think we all see what you are saying and in essence we do not disagree.

but it is good to balance your view to a place of perfect harmony in the truth of the written word and the truth of the word that became flesh (who is Jesus ,the Christ.)
For they are one and agree.

so consider if you will this scenario ... the lord Jesus -by the Holy Spirit ,tells a man to go to a farmer and ask for work and the farmer will pay you .
So he obeys ..and goes and the farmer gives him work to do and pays him.
Then the Lord Jesus tells him to take those earnings and give them to another person who is in great need and has been praying for an answer to those needs .So that man obeys the lord Jesus and does so .

Now at what stage is that man serving mammon?
at no stage .for he is in service to the Lord Jesus by his obedience .

So you see the point is you cannot take a singular aspect and impose it on others because in so doing you may hinder them in their obedience to what the Lord Jesus is telling them to do : ADD- it is therefore not an issue in any situation to speak of the lord in testimony as the Holy Spirit guides us to do so. for in any situation it comes down to simple loving obedience in service to the lord Jesus .... to disobey would be to serve the flesh -or if you like ,mammon.

 

[candle glow]

Rather than turn this thread into a fight, why not just stick to the issues?

one is that the "LOVE" of money is bad. not working and receiving wage .. as God considers it an evil if you do not pay someone for their labors .

It's evil if we don't work for money? Really? It's just so totally opposite to what Jesus actually said. The complete opposite. No wonder Jesus said, "the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone".

We show who we love by who we give our time to. Who are you really giving your time to when you demand payment for your help?

Also, can you show the teachings from Jesus (remember, our Lord and savior, the cornerstone?) where he says that God expects us to demand payment for our help?

 

[Omena]

There's a lot of Christians out there who would claim to believe in the teaching from Jesus about quitting our paid jobs, but that the holy spirit has lead them to work a paid job. I find it very hard to believe that 99% of Christians out there are being led to contradict this teaching. Jesus didn't say "go work a paid job and give your earnings to the poor", he said "sell all that you own and give your proceeds to the poor".

 

[Alithis]

There's a lot of Christians out there who would claim to believe in the teaching from Jesus about quitting our paid jobs, but that the holy spirit has lead them to work a paid job. I find it very hard to believe that 99% of Christians out there are being led to contradict this teaching. Jesus didn't say "go work a paid job and give your earnings to the poor", he said "sell all that you own and give your proceeds to the poor".

nope- he actually said that to a singular individual .to all he said "if you love me - obey my commands .." so if he tells(commands) you to do one thing and me to do another thing -you are walking in obedience if you do it and I am walking in obedience if I do it . both are in obedience to what the lord Jesus tells us to do . Just like when the lord Jesus answered peter in regard to what was to happen to John..

Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

which clearly displays,that what the lord directs one person to do and what he directs another person to do, is not governed by my or your opinion .Nor can we impose our opinion of what we are supposed to do in obedience ,onto some one else,who is doing what the lord has told THEM to do, which may and does differ from what he has told you to do .

Now - i think we all see what you also are saying and in essence we do not disagree.Although because the lord Jesus said that to one particular wealthy man a man the Lord knew had issues with money- Does not mean he said it to all .
but it is good to balance your view to a place of perfect harmony in the truth of the written word and the truth of the word that became flesh (who is Jesus ,the Christ.)
For they are one and agree.

so consider if you will this scenario ... the lord Jesus -by the Holy Spirit ,tells a man to go to a farmer and ask for work and the farmer will pay you .
So he obeys ..and goes and the farmer gives him work to do and pays him.
Then the Lord Jesus tells him to take those earnings and give them to another person who is in great need and has been praying for an answer to those needs .So that man obeys the lord Jesus and does so .

Now at what stage is that man serving mammon?
at no stage .for he is in service to the Lord Jesus by his obedience .

So you see the point is you cannot take a singular aspect and impose it on others because in so doing you may hinder them in their obedience to what the Lord Jesus is telling them to do : ADD- it is therefore not an issue in any situation to speak of the lord in testimony as the Holy Spirit guides us to do so. for in any situation it comes down to simple loving obedience in service to the lord Jesus .... to disobey would be to serve the flesh -or if you like ,mammon.

 

[Alithis]

candle glow these are the 3 points i posted-in reply to your post - that you have chosen to misread and misrepresent
three things -

one -is that the "LOVE" of money is bad.

Not working and receiving wage .. as God considers it an evil if you do not pay someone for their labors .

second .. i thought you were not trying to impose on other what God is doing in your life

and third : you kee quoting sunny's posts and twisting his words .. you must stop doing that - it is dishonest .

you are both right .. the issue comes down to obeying the Holy Spirit in your own lives .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
since you obviously misread it -perhaps English is a second language for you.

I will expand and simplify

three things -

# one - is that it is the "LOVE" of money that is bad, as the bible calls it the root of all evil. it does not say money itself is bad .

not working and receiving wage ..that is to say -: it is NOT working to receive a wage that is bad ..the worker is worthy of his wage .. and God considers it an evil if you do not pay someone the agreed wage for their labors .

second .. i thought you were not trying to impose on other what God is doing in your life? you said you went, yet you are downing on folks who disagree with you .

and third : you keep quoting ONLY PARTS of sunny's posts and twisting his words .. you must stop doing that - it is dishonest .you have been doing it to me also .
it is a misrepresentation and dishonest -
So again the request - respectfully

Please quote a persons post in its entirety

you are both right .. the issue comes down to obeying the Holy Spirit in your own
lives. - you disagreed with this which reaction, in honesty, confuses me .could you give clarification as to your beliefs in regard to the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT and recognition of him as the one the lord Jesus promised would teach us all truth ? it may go some ways to explaining the differing perception we are having on what is essentially the same topic .

 

[candle glow]

Hi Michael. No, I don't feel a need to respond to every point you make, just like you don't respond to every point I make. I'd like you to deal with this particular issue from your post (the re-clarification post). Though, even in your clarification, nothing was really clarified. You said the same thing as you said in your original post.

it is NOT working to receive a wage that is bad ..the worker is worthy of his wage .. and God considers it an evil if you do not pay someone the agreed wage for their labors .

I'm still waiting for a response to these questions. This will be my third time posting them now.

It's evil if we don't work for money? Really? It's just so totally opposite to what Jesus actually said. The complete opposite. No wonder Jesus said, "the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone".

We show who we love by who we give our time to. Who are you really giving your time to when you demand payment for your help?

Also, can you show the teachings from Jesus (remember, our Lord and savior, the cornerstone?) where he says that God expects us to demand payment for our help?

you are both right .. the issue comes down to obeying the Holy Spirit in your own
lives. - you disagreed with this which reaction, in honesty, confuses me

I didn't disagree that people should obey the holy spirit. I disagreed with the "in their own lives" part, because you are using it dishonestly to make obedience to Jesus optional. In other words, "if someone feels like Jesus is telling them to obey this teaching, then they should obey, while others may feel that Jesus is not asking them to obey his teachings".

But, why would Jesus NOT want some of his followers to obey him? Once again we get the conspiracy against the teachings of Jesus and this time you've used the holy spirit to cover for it...how disgusting.

That's nothing personal against you, Michael. It's your teachings that I find offensive.

 

[candle glow]

nope- he actually said that to a singular individual

I wonder if you will have the humility to admit being wrong about this when evidence is presented to show that he didn't say this to s singular individual? Although, I'm quite sure that after so many posts on this thread AND the living by faith thread, that surely you would have seen evidence showing that there are many more situations where Jesus talks about forsaking all. Perhaps you just didn't notice all the evidence...

On the other hand, perhaps this is also part of the conspiracy against the teachings of Jesus. Everyone wants to believe that there was only ever one person in history who had a problem with materialism; the rich young ruler.

It's so convenient for us to say that materialism was his special problem and that's why Jesus told him about forsaking all. But that reasoning is a lie. It's convenient and makes us feel better about our own indifference to materialism, but it's still a lie.

Here is some evidence:

LK 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.

Immediately following Jesus' command to a rich ruler (from Luke 18, which Michael is referencing) Peter says this. It's hardly a singular teaching, right Michael?

And this one:

LK 5:10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

LK 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.

Obviously, this issue of forsaking all is NOT a "singular" teaching, as Michael claims. But will he admit to that? Probably not. Not only is his religious pride on the line, but also his convenient doctrine for escaping the teachings of Jesus.

It's almost certain that he will end up searing his conscience over this. He MAY even say something like, "that was only for the apostles". But then, even that doesn't really hold water, since Jesus told the apostles to go into all the world teaching others to obey the same commands which he had given to them.

Anyway, lets continue:

LK 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.

LK 5:28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.

Yet another example of someone forsaking all to follow Jesus. It's a recurring theme all throughout the gospels. These are not just a few isolated verses.

LK 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

The context here is that Jesus is talking to a multitude of people about counting the cost of following God. That's why you see the word "likewise". He's relating it to the parables he'd just told about people who start something but then realize that they don't really have what it takes to finish.

In other words, you can't even start to be a Christian if you don't start by forsaking everything, because that's what it takes to break out of the systems of man and start all over again living by the NEW values of the kingdom of Heaven (remember being "born again?") where people share what they have with one another.

 

[Alithis]

no point .

 

[candle glow]

sssssszzzzzzzzziiiizzzzzzzzzzllllllleeeeeeeee...

What's that? The sound of a conscience being seared?

 

[Norah63]

Michael, you have stated your part very well.
When the Holy Spirit tells us to do something, that is our part. If another has never had that gift of revelation, then all the letter of the law can do is convict them.
Only the Spirit gives life.
Several have tried to share on this thread. May the Lord add His Spirit to the reading of the Word.
As the op question stated, "are you allowed to say?" It depends somewhat on how much opposition any is ready to encounter.
My peace I leave with you, not as the world gives.