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Are you afraid of going to Hell?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Jesus4Ever, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Considering there is no such punctuation in the Koine Greek your interpretation is at odds with every scholarly translation.

    Even the most literal mechanical translations in English don't suggest the comma change.

    The YLT next to the LEB are the most literal word for word translations.

    And the YLT is painfully obvious in this verse.

    43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    It's as if the guy hanging on a cross in excruciating pain needed a reminder Jesus was talking to him that day and not another.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    What does the quoted passage have to do with the post you responded to? To indicate Jesus was in soul sleep?
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Which amounts to the breath of life.

    Soul is "nephesh" in verse 20. Translated as:

    nephesh, neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature...
    Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

    In Genesis 2:7 a more specific variation of the word appears:

    nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'; from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

    I think we would agree this breath of life is referring to the soul.

    When we stop breathing where does our breath of life go? We are dead and assumed room temperature no longer breathing. Does the soul hang out there in the casket?
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    No, we don't. There's nothing there that teaches that man can live apart from the body.




    His statement is clear and the context is clear it's the resurrection. Paul even says in the passage you're referring to that he doesn't expect to be without a body.

    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)


    Notice he says, "if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked". He's not looking for an existence apart from the body. He wants his earthly house to be overclothed with his heavenly one. That's immortality swallowing up mortality. It completely contradicts what you're claiming the passage is about.

    As I pointed out, the Greek words translated absent and present mean to be away from and with one's own people. The Body of Christ is Paul's own people.

    Also, Paul isn't stating an either or. He is stating a desire. It is his desire to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He didn't say it's one state or the other.

    Also, those who hold your view assume an immediate change of state. There is nothing in Paul' statement that would indicate that it is immediate.

    The argument is begging the question. There's nothing in this passage that says the dead are alive. One must already believe that to get from the passage. That's begging the question.
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    He not talking about his physical body. That's clear from his word ekdemeo and endemeo. Both of these Greek words refer to being among or away from one's own people.
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    What does any of this have to do with what I said? There was no punctuation. A literal translation of the text has no bearing on punctuation. All punctuation is added by the translators. So, they add the punctuation where they "think" it should be. Since the vast majority of Christians have been taught this error of that man can live apart from the body it's logical that the translators would translate it the way they do. Obviously, they're not going to translate it as something they don't believe. As I said before either translation is grammatically correct, it could be either one. Therefore neither one is proof.

    Having said that, the common translation contradicts Scripture. We know Jesus was in the tomb for three days. Yet, this interpretation says He was in paradise. I don't recall anything in Scripture about a garden in the tomb.

    Also, the thief wanted to go into Jesus' kingdom. He didn't say anything about paradise. So, why Jesus mention paradise? If He's honoring the thief's request, then paradise has to be Jesus' kingdom. If it's not then the thief's request wasn't addressed.
     
  8. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    It has everything to do with it. In the passage, the Jews indicate that Jesus said He would rise after three days. So, according to the Scriptures, Jesus was in the tomb for three days. The interpretation you gave has Him in a place called paradise. Which one is it?
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Obviously, there is as the text I quoted shows this:

    Revelation 6: NKJV

    9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

    The text does not reveal what you want it to reveal.

    However, if you are still convinced Paul is speaking of the resurrection when discussing absent from the body and present with the Lord, let's look where he mentions this subject again.

    Philippians 1: NKJV

    19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    What makes you think Paradise is not the Kingdom?
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Both.
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    You're doing the same with this passage as the other. Nothing here teaches that the dead are alive. In order to understand what Paul is saying one has to interpret the passage so that it agrees with what Paul believed. I've already posted what he wrote to the Corinthians. He said if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. That's what he believed. He didn't say those who had died in Christ were with God. He said they'd perished. The only hope Paul gives for the Christian is the resurrection. Your claim runs contrary to what he said. Likewise, your interpretation of the above passage runs contrary to what he said. If an interpretation runs counter to what the apostle said it's wrong.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    What I do is actually nothing other than properly quote Paul.

    You are straining the gnat to fit your doctrine. I am presenting the Scriptures themselves and trying to draw out the truth. Paul in both passages clearly speaks of departing his current body to be present with the Lord.

    Does he detail a theological definition of such? No. All he says is key if I stay in this body alive I can do more work for Christ. But I'd rather be in His presence. So when I am absent in this body I am present with the Lord.

    It's a simple concept he is communicating. He mentions nothing about sleeping in some unconscious vapor state or having his soul recreated at the resurrection. Nothing there to suggest such.

    Yes Revelation is full of apocalyptic symbolism. However, let's look at this from an expository standpoint. The souls of the martyrs are presented in Revelation 6. The Lamb that was slain is also presented. That is Jesus Christ. Christ is present in Heaven as John witnessed and so are the souls of the martyrs. If John is using symbols with reference to "souls" then explain the literal truth behind the symbol instead of waving off Revelation too hard to figure out.

    Look, maybe it would help me converse if I knew the form of soul sleep you believe in. There are two I know of.

    The 7th Day Adventist version of completely inert soul sleep, or the Jehovah's Witness soul annihilation version?
     
  14. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Well, knowing the nature of a physical dimension of time, and how it is relative to mass, velocity, gravity, and other factors, this all may be moot anyway. Time is a physical dimension. It was created. It is theoretically possible that a person who died 100 years ago, a person who dies today, and one who is alive and changed at the resurrection, may all arrive in heaven at the same moment. So all of this back and forth is probably nothing more than academic and a food fight over nothing.

    If I have a 3.5" floppy disk, it weighs about 2.5 oz. If I put a million bytes of program on it, it still weighs 2.5 oz. The soul is like software, it is massless and weighs nothing. Separated from the body, it is not subject to the physical dimension of time since it has no mass. And it has to be separated from the body, as the body decays to dust, either naturally, cremated, blown up, whatever. So where does the soul go when it is separated from the body, either a believer or unbeliever? There is no time dimension there, so what would be the need for some sort of soul sleep? There is no time ticking off between their death and the resurrection.
     
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    Paradise is the Kingdom, that's the point. We know Jesus is coming back to set up the kingdom.
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    Please explain how it is that He was in two different places at the same time.
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    And giving "your" understanding of what he said. That's the point. Peter said that some things that Paul wrote are hard to understand. That's coming from an apostle who person had his understanding of the Scriptures opened by Christ. Christ personally opened Peter's understanding of the Scriptures and yet even Peter had trouble understanding things Paul wrote. We're 2000 years removed, how much more difficult is it for us?

    No, I'm reconciling all of the passages that Paul wrote. He stated plainly that if there is no those who had died in Christ had perished. That's a clear statement. All of his other statements must also agree with this statement. This idea that people are consciously present with God or Christ immediately after death doesn't reconcile with this passage. Search the Scriptures, see if you find anything anywhere where Paul is talking about people going to heaven to be with Jesus when they die. You find anything apart from the resurrection. Everything people use is by way of inference. That right there is a red flag.

    So, you agree that he doesn't teach it. So, if he doesn't teach then the idea is purely inference. So, it's not something that comes from the Bible, but rather one's interpretation of the Bible. That is a huge difference. That is my point. It's by way of inference, therefore, it is susceptible to error. I submit that it is an error.

    It's a concept that is being inferred. Paul isn't communicating because we know he didn't believe it.

    Actually, Paul uses sleep as a metaphor for death quite often. The one who dies will be resurrected, thus the metaphor.

    I asked why should this be understood literally since the book is full of symbolism. It's your claim that those in chapter 6 are somehow alive apart from the body, can you show why this should be taken literally.

    [quot e]Look, maybe it would help me converse if I knew the form of soul sleep you believe in. There are two I know of.

    The 7th Day Adventist version of completely inert soul sleep, or the Jehovah's Witness soul annihilation version?[/QUOTE]

    I don't hold to "soul sleep." People sleeping in death is a metaphor. Dead people are dead, just as the Scriptures say. This idea of the immortal soul comes from Greek Philosophy not Scripture. In Gen 2 Moses relates how God created man.

    7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

    We find that God created the man from the dust of the earth. Therefore man is of the dust or elements of the earth. Then God breathed the breath or spirit of life into man. Those two things combined to become a "Living Soul." From this we see that a living soul consists of a man and the breath or spirit of life. We also know from Scripture that when a man dies the breath or spirit of life returns to God and the man returns to the dust. God specifically told Adam, 'you are dust'. He didn't say you are a spirit or a soul that temporarily lives in a physical body.

    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    That was a lot just to say "is not,"

    I pointed out the very concrete comments of Paul. If I am absent from this body which will rot when I die, I will be present with the Lord. That's very simple and you are applying a lot of soul sleep eisegesis to simply say "Paul is not saying what he says."

    I posited Philippians 1:23 as well where Paul is not speaking of the Resurrection in context. He again confirms:
    Philippians 1:NKJV

    21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

    I'm simply pointing out the abundance of evidence in the NT of us being in the presence of the Lord when our carbon based life forms cease to work. You have to reach to the OT to muddy the water. God's revelation is progressive and we see more information in the NT.

    Ok the above is the Jehovah's Witness teaching.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    That's because I not only said it's not. I showed why it's not.

    Yes, then proceeded to interpret them according to your understanding, not Paul's. You're interpreting the passage is contradictory to what Paul believed. I've already shown what Paul believe about the dead. He said if there is no resurrection the Christians who had died in Christ had perished. Your interpretation flatly contradicts that statement. So, please explain how you're interpretation could possibly be correct.

    Also, As I pointed out Paul didn't even say what you've claimed. He said he was "willing". That's a desire not a statement of fact. Then he was to be absent from the body "and" present with the Lord. He didn't say, absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Your statement is an either or. Paul's is simply a desire for one state over another.

    Also, as I've pointed out. There is no time frame given in Paul's statement. Many simply assume it's immediate If Paul believed that the dead are dead, as we find in the Scriptures. Then there is no conscious existence when dead. So, for Paul, or any other person, the only thing they know is one moment they are alive, they die, and then they are in the resurrection. They have no concept of time while dead. So, while in reality, it is not immediate, it would seem to be to once resurrected.

    We've also seen that that context of this statement is the resurrection.

    We've also seen that the Greek words that translated absent and present refer to being among or away from one's own people.

    We've also seen that Paul refers to Christians as the body of Christ.

    There is no evidence of us being present with the Lord apart from the resurrection. That's simply imposing one's belief on the text. You yourself have admitted that Paul doesn't teach it in the Scriptures. Therefore it's simply an inference you're drawing from what you read. You're also ignoring evidence that flatly contradicts your belief.

    So, why does Paul talk about being present with the Lord? If Paul believed that the dead are dead, as we find in the Scriptures. Then there is no conscious existence when dead. So, for Paul, or any other person, the only thing they know is one moment they are alive, they die, and then they are in the resurrection. They have no concept of time while dead. So, while in reality, it is not immediate, it would seem to be to once resurrected.



    Muddy the waters? Isn't the OT the infallible word of God?



    What Jehova's Witnesses believe is irrelevant. We're discussing the Scriptures not the what the Jehovah's Witnesse believe. Trying to connect me to them is a logical fallacy known as Poisoning the Well.

    Why aren't you answering the questions I've posed? If the dead aren't dead and are infact alive, why are they called dead?
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    We do know that the Person of Jesus Christ was truly God and truly man. When Christ was raised bodily He was the same Person but a Resurrected body. Is it your held belief that Jesus Christ held no conscious existence when 3 days in the tomb?

    Sorry if you believe I'm poisoning the well. You are on a Christian only sub forum and your rejection of the soul is a held belief by the Watchtower (JWs).
     
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