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Are you afraid of going to Hell?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Jesus4Ever, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    Why do you refuse to answer the questions? Why are the dead said to be dead in Scripture if as you suggest they are alive? Why does your interpretation contradict what Paul said? Why do you see the OT as muddying the waters?

    You can clear this up rather quickly. All you need to do is show Scripture teaching that man can live apart from the body. The problem is, there is none. It's simply inferred from people misunderstanding passages of Scripture that have been taken out of context.

    You are poising the well by trying to connect me with Jehovah's Witnesses rather than addressing my argument. What they believe is irrelevant. The argument I've given is from the Scriptures. Also, nowhere have I denied the soul. Here again, you're imposing what you believe, this time on me instead of the Scriptures.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    I have, several others have and you deny the plain words mean what they actually mean.

    Most errors in theology stem from one's Christology. Let's start there as you did not answer if Christ had a conscious existence upon His death on the Cross.

    Yes, your argument is eisegesis at best as you have to dance around every proof text which refutes your soulless theory. If you do not deny the soul, then what happens to it when we die. If you think our corporeal human lives are the same as our soul, then that is not a Christian belief.

    You have been presented quite a few proof texts in which you have denied 'today' means 'today' and comma placement which no scholar adheres to (other than the Watchtower-JWs). You have denied Paul means what he says when he opines I am absent from THIS body I am present with the Lord (not once by twice in two different epistles).

    You have claimed metaphor and symbolism where your argument runs afoul, yet the text in question is neither metaphor nor symbolism as used by the speaker.

    I think a lot of our back and forth is due to how we approach the Nature of Jesus Christ. I don't think we share the same Christology. I think that is the problem in probably 80% of the CF discussions is that many who have the Christian 'tag' truly don't have a Christian view (see CF SoF) of the Nature of Jesus Christ. The Nature of Jesus Christ has everything to do with soteriology.
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    I find it interesting that you use the words "proof text". That shows that your texts are out of context. You've admitted that Paul doesn't teach what you're claiming and yet you say the Bible supports it. If it's not taught then It's an inference at best. I've addressed that passages that you've presented. You've ignored the ones I've presented. I never said, today doesn't mean today, I simply said the comma is in the wrong place. I never said Paul didn't mean what he said, I simply said you misunderstand what he said. That you keep jumping from place to place show that you can't present a defense for your position. It's what about this passage, what about this passage...

    Your claim is that dead people are conscious. That's the premise of your argument. I reject your premise. I have spoken to dead people and they have never responded in any way. I know of others who have done so and not gotten any response. So, from all of the empirical evidence I have the dead are not conscious. I submit that you prove your premise before we engage your argument about Christians being in the presence of God.

    Also, why do you still refuse to address the questions? Why are the dead referred to as dead in the Scriptures if in fact, they are alive as you suggest?

    The Jews indicated that Jesus was in the tomb for three days. Your interpretation has in Paradise the day of the crucifixion. How do you address this inconsistency?
     
  4. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    This hell thing was a real problem for me. I agreed with C. S. Lewis that if there was one thing about Christianity I wished I could change, it would be the concept of non-believers spending eternity in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT).

    However, I'd never actually studied hell as described in the bible. Once I did an actual study of everywhere in the bible that the fate of the lost is discussed, either as the primary subject or simply in passing.

    Guess what happened? I became an advocate of Conditional Immortality (CI), which is the foundation upon which Annihilationism rests. This was seven years ago. Then I discovered I am not alone in this. And the movement is growing exponentially. Just as the invention of the printing press and the widespread sharing of knowledge brought us the reformation, the internet has brought a spotlight and some seriously needed discussion on many of the things all Christians believe and simply accept as "true" without any real study.

    And then, about six months ago, I discovered this site. The whole site has been turned into a $5 book on amazon.

    Jewishnotgreek.com

    It covers pretty much all of the arguments from both sides of this issue so that one can make up their own mind. But, more importantly, it gets into why this is such a critical issue to discuss: the impact that the ECT message has on Christian evangelism.
     
  5. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I think it might be a perception thing. That is, to the dead, it is as if they are immediately in the presence of God.

    I use as an illustration what anybody that has been put under during surgery has experienced. In my case, I was asked to take a deep breath as they held the mask against me, then another. In the middle of the second breath I was in the recovery room several hours later, though from my perspective NO time had passed.

    I believe that will be the "experience" of the dead. Now, there is no way to know, until it actually happens, so it is just my opinion. I categorize this whole "what happens right after you die" thing into seeing "through a glass, darkly". We'll all know soon enough.
     
  6. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I'll say. Some REALLY good information here: Jewishnotgreek.com

    Also, there is a site called Rethinkinghell.com as well as a facebook page called rethinkinghell. In both cases, there is a LOT of very good discussion on the subject. At the facebook page, there is a lot of discussion from both sides as well as links to articles, books, youtube videos, etc. Once someone is immersed in the discussions and information at that site, they should come away with a much more rooted "opinion" on the subject.
     
  7. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe it is important that You forgive Your enemies and live a loving life. To be able to manage that You most definitedly need Gods help. Today we get hurt in many ways and Jesus died for our sins but The Holy Spirit helps us to extend grace to our enemies, or say those that hurt us in any way, that is a christian witness to them and the world around us. Hell wasn't created for people but we should long to draw near to God and prioritice God more. Take time for prayer etc. For listening to people.
     
  8. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Based upon the lives of many or even most Christians in 2017, myself included at times, not very many of us seem to be worried about the possibility of going to Hell. Perhaps we should be?
     
  9. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I listened to the radio this evening and it said that is did pick Paris as a target because they had a concert where they sang to the devil, when they started to sing that they were to kiss the devil then the terrorists started to shoot people, how ironic. How sad for those that lost their child, mother, father, sister, brother all because of dreadful songs. Some had a theory that perhaps the muslims come here to hear the gospel of Christ.
     
  10. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would
    I do not agree with You there, I would call that sleep but not death.
     
  11. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I'm just using it metaphorically and, possibly, as literal as one can get. This is because one thing it taught me about sleep is that you ARE cognizant, to some degree, of the passage of time. I didn't realize that until I experience the seemingly same state, only without the sensation of passage of time. It was anything but sleep.

    And when put under, you are brought to the brink of death, and brought back. That's why they are paid so well.

    It is, of course, only speculation on my part and yours. I'm just applying what seems to happen to the "soulmind" when the body is no longer involved. And when you add my personal belief that outside of creation, there is not the linear passage of time as we perceive it here. I just believe this experience supported that belief.
     
  12. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is my thoughts out of what I can explain but I can not promice that You belive it so if You want to know more read Your bible or look up youtube on those who describe what it was like to be dead and then to be proclaimed alive again. If we look at the human set up like this, the body is what You see, the spirit is what makes the body and soul alive and the soul of the human is the inner persons qualities, the so called mind, memory, connections to other friends or relatives and soulmates, feelings etc. The five sences might also be something that You have with You in eternity plus that You are able to feel what is said, let's say that is an heavenly body that Your spirit enter into when You come to heaven because your earthly body is left dead on earth and everybody usually that tries to talk to it finds it dead if no miracle happens. If a miracle happens then usually You get A blessing from Jesus in heaven and He says it is not Your time yet and you still have important service to do and someone is praying for You to get back to earth to fulfill it no matter how You died. Jesus might ask You if You would be willing to go back for those sake that are left behind and if You would be willing to leave heaven to go down to earth and serve Him there again He might let You start to live again. But heaven is such a wonderful place that few people want to go back. You might think this is bogus but it might be some peoples story if no hospitals are involved and it can be one explanation to miracles because God is a powerful God and God over life and death. Yes I understand if You do not believe it maybe better so than if You need to die and comeback to believe or never come back and be stuck in eternal death, dying is nothing I suggest because of curiosity. I also think God can take away memories of the past and He can let it be known in due time or it can be repressed naturally. A dead person is dead to the living on earth because the life, the spirit has gone out of Him or Her. The Spirit either goes to God or unfortunatedly to Hell if the person has no wish to know God. It is Gods wish to know all people but I assume He is often misunderstood even by christians. I believe God is life and unconditional Love and the only one that can forgive sins and He also can help us grow right even under pressure when we otherwise might only get weak or distracted. I believe in silent prayer even more than load only because then only My God knows what I pray. That means if I am surrounded by "enemies" or whatever we should call our opponents, they do not know how to interfere.
     
  13. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Big difference between sleep and death. Although the Lord Jesus said in "Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth." (Luke 8.52).
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    This seems to be a popular idea today, but it's not what the Scriptures teach. What you're suggesting here is not resurrection but reincarnation. That isn't Scriptural.
     
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    I agree with what you've said here. I would submit that that is why the Scriptures refer to death as sleep. Scriptures tell us that all will be resurrected. Thus the time between death and resurrection is akin to sleep.
     
  16. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do You remember that girl in the bible that everybody said were dead, Jesus got her to live again. I am pretty sure She was not breathing before Jesus came. Lazarus was probably also dead. In those cases miracles happened, not incarnation, I do not believe in incarnation either, I do believe God can perform miracles sometimes though, and the time of miracles are not over, I think You can be recogniced in heaven too when You are dead but You do then look like You but still Your earthly body is on earth dead. You do not change into another charachter, that is what I believe. If we would take it down a notch to the more explainable more ordinary say You have an accident, a carcrash, You are dying and Your spirit leaves Your body while You black out after not being able to breath. Some eyewitness calls the ambulance and in the ambulance they are trying to start Your heart again with electricity, heartmassage and all available care including mouth to mouth method and succeeds. Your heart starts and Your pulse starts and You are soon breathing somewhat ok with some help of a mashine but soon You manage on Your own after a series of surgery. You would not call that incarnation either but those minutes You were declared dead You might have experienced something that is not of this life but beyond or after but You were given another chance in life, often people come back rather changed inside by that experience.
     
  17. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think Jesus brought her back to life and put a deep sleep over her. She probably needed to sleep a bit and the people needed to let her be alone with her family when She woke up.
     
  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    That may sound nice, but it's not what the Scriptures teach. According to the Scriptures a person is the person, not a spirit. We find in Scripture that God created the man from the dust of the earth. Thus the man is of the elements of the earth. Then God breathed into the man the Breath or spirit of life, and the man became a living soul. Thus a living soul consists of a body and the breath or spirit of God. We find also in Scripture that when a man dies, the breath or spirit returns to God and the man returns to the dust. There is nothing to live on after a man dies, so he can't have an after death experience. At least not until the resurrection. Also, people don't go to Heaven so whatever the claims are these people aren't in Heaven.
     
  19. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How come that the only ones that claim that theory to be true in that sence is the ones that have never had a death experience of any sort. Even those that has that mindset has changed it after they met with Jesus after they died and came to life on earth again and they have realised they were not asleep, they realised we live on in heaven or hell but our time on earth is not forever, their bodies are the only bodily materia laying in the graves under earth but that could hardly be called sleep either. I have read my bibles in many languages too and thought about this question but I think God will make sure we end up were we ought to be. Still we should not think we know it all, rest and sleep can not that mean more than literally sleeping. We also say that christians today are asleep, lukewarm, dead or resting while the Devil is posessing the worldly people one way or another but that does not mean there are dead christians bodies laying on the streets yet, no then the christians would wake up and start evangelizing. But we are so afraid of getting it wrong or being a pest or messing up so we shut up and let it all run out in the sand too often. Sometimes inviting someone for lunch and saying grace before eating is all that is needed for a person to open up when they need a friend sometimes not but we do not need to be so complicated.
     
  20. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    It's really simple actually. There is no way to validate what people say who claim to have been dead. However, the Scriptures are written down for all to see. There have already been cases where people have been found to be lying about these experiences. The human mind is capable of quite fanciful things. There are people who aren't dead who make the same or similar claims.

    Tell me, why should I believe someone who says they were dead and had this experience, especially, when what they claim runs counter to Scriptures?
     
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