Are you afraid of going to Hell?

[Butch5]

Then you should take the following at face value :

John 14: NKJV

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

I agree. We should take it at face value. What did He say? He said He was going away and He would come back so that they could be with Him. Notice the reason He's coming back, it's so they can be with Him. You see this is the problem with proof texting. If was look at the whole statement we find that Jesus had just told them that they can't go where He is going.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A ne (Jn. 13:33-34 KJV)

They can't go where is He was going.

People think these passages support this idea of the dead being alive. However, it's really begging the question because they only seem to support this idea if one already believes this idea to be true.

 

[Copperhead]

So, would that mean those that have died and immediately are in the presence of God, then also not be able to talk? Would they not be able to praise the Lord who has redeemed them?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV) So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Butch5]

So, would that mean those that have died and immediately are in the presence of God, then also not be able to talk? Would they not be able to praise the Lord who has redeemed them?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV) So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

I submit that those who have died are not immediately in the presence of God. If we look at the context of this passage we see that Paul is speaking of the resurrection.

14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.1
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; t (2 Cor. 4:14-5:10 KJV)

 

[Copperhead]

And what of......

Luke 23:42-43 (NKJV) Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Maybe Jesus was just too beaten up to think clearly and misspoke.

 

[Butch5]

And what of......

Luke 23:42-43 (NKJV) Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Maybe Jesus was just too beaten up to think clearly and misspoke.

Actually, in the original text, there was no punctuation. The comma before the word "today" is added by the translators. It's placed there solely at their discretion. So, the translator translates the passage the way he understands it. The comma could also be placed after the word "today" and it would still be grammatically correct. So, the sentence could be translated like this.

43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

By moving the comma and placing it after today we change the meaning of the sentence. The sentence no longer says they would be in Paradise today, but rather Jesus is saying it today.

 

[Copperhead]

Ah... I see. And you would strain at a gnat to prove your position. This is then proving a position on how one intends to read the words from bias. And what of these passages in comparison. They seem to nullify your assertion. One thing that is clear guidance in scripture, the scripture is not of any private interpretation. So let's take a look at other interpretations of the passage from folks more learned than you or I....

Young's Literal Translation:
Luke 23:43 (YLT) and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Kenneth Weust's translation (a well recognized Greek scholar):

Luke 23:43 (Wuest - The New Testament: An Expanded Translation) And He said to him, Assuredly I to you am saying, Today with me you shall be in the paradise.

International Standard Version:

(ISV) Jesus told him, “I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

American Standard Version:

Luke 23:43 (ASV) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

New American Standard Version:

Luke 23:43 (NASB) And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

The Literal Translation, based on the Green Hebrew-Greek-English Interlinear Bible:

Luke 23:43 (LITV) And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

New International Version:

Luke 23:43 (NIV) Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

It would seem, that these folks do not have a problem with that dreaded comma. These translators are quite comfortable with the nuances in the Greek and should be able to tell the difference, especially in the very literal translations.

 

[Butch5]

Ah... I see. And you would strain at a gnat to prove your position. This is then proving a position on how one intends to read the words. And these passages in comparison. They seem to nullify your assertion. One thing that is clear guidance in scripture, the scripture is not of any private interpretation. So let's take a look at other interpretations of the passage from folks more learned than you or I....

Young's Literal Translation:
Luke 23:43 (YLT) and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Kenneth Weust's translation (a well recognized Greek scholar):

Luke 23:43 (Wuest - The New Testament: An Expanded Translation) And He said to him, Assuredly I to you am saying, Today with me you shall be in the paradise.

International Standard Version:

(ISV) Jesus told him, “I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

American Standard Version:

Luke 23:43 (ASV) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

New American Standard Version:

Luke 23:43 (NASB) And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

The Literal Translation, based on the Green Hebrew-Greek-English Interlinear Bible:

Luke 23:43 (LITV) And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

New International Version:

Luke 23:43 (NIV) Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Firstly, You've assumed that they are more learned than me. It seems this is what you've done with the Scriptures. What here shows that what I said is wrong? Nothing. As I said, the translator translates the passage as he understands it. If, as most Christians do, he believes that the dead are alive there's the possibility that he will translate it as you've suggested. However, as I pointed out both ways are grammatically correct. Therefore since either translation is correct, neither can be used as proof. Therefore the passage doesn't support your argument because it can be correctly translated both ways. According to the Scriptures, Jesus was in the tomb for three days. My interpretation fits with the Scriptures. The one you've proposed and which seems to be indicated in the translations you posted doesn't fit what the Scriptures say. So, which interpretation is likely the correct one, the one that agrees with the Scriptures or the one that doesn't?

58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch. (Matt. 27:58-66 KJV)

 

[redleghunter]

I agree. We should take it at face value. What did He say? He said He was going away and He would come back so that they could be with Him. Notice the reason He's coming back, it's so they can be with Him. You see this is the problem with proof texting. If was look at the whole statement we find that Jesus had just told them that they can't go where He is going.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A ne (Jn. 13:33-34 KJV)

They can't go where is He was going.

People think these passages support this idea of the dead being alive. However, it's really begging the question because they only seem to support this idea if one already believes this idea to be true.

The John 13 reference was for His death and resurrection. Not when the disciples are actually dead in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 5 is quite clear on "the state" of absence and presence. Why are people discounting the teachings of an apostle of Jesus who met Him?

I've seen comments in this thread about time and timeline. These are things of the temporal created world.

 

[Copperhead]

Yes, Butch, I did assert that they were more learned than you or I. Most of these translations were done by teams of Hebrew and Greek scholars who ought to know the nuances of the original languages to know what is being implied in the text. Myriads of commentators, generally very good Biblical scholars themselves, also seem to disagree with you.

You could well be right. We will find out one day. I understand the assertion you are making, and I respectfully disagree. It isn't one of the foundational principles of Christian belief anyway. Believers can differ in many areas that are really just side issues. It is on fundamentals that differences can mean salvation or destruction. But as for this version of "soul sleep", I don't buy the package.

One thing that is missing in your assertion. That the body of Jesus put in the tomb was of the same nature as the body He had after the tomb. And when did Jesus go do this, at the time of His death, or later after He had risen?

1 Peter 3:19 (NKJV) by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison

And flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, 1 Cor 15:50, and when Jesus appeared to the disciples He stated clearly:

Luke 24:39 (NKJV) Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

He chose His words in a precise manner to offset that His body is no longer one of flesh and blood.

And what of the person who is blown up in a explosion? How about those that died in the nuclear blasts in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It would not be out of line to assume that some of those vaporized where believers. Missionaries had been in Japan long before WW II. Where are their spirits? Drifting about aimlessly thru the cosmos?

 

[Butch5]

The John 13 reference was for His death and resurrection. Not when the disciples are actually dead in the flesh.

I'm not sure what you're getting at hrere

1 Corinthians 5 is quite clear on "the state" of absence and presence. Why are people discounting the teachings of an apostle of Jesus who met Him?

As I pointed out, the context of the passage is the resurrection. Paul isn't saying that the dead are with God. Paul's use of absent from the body isn't speaking of one's physical existence. He uses the metaphor of the body as the church. The body of Christ is the Church. If you look up the Greek words that are translated absent and present you'll find that they mean to be away from one's people or to go abroad and to be with or among one's people. He's not talking about a ghost leaving the body.

I've seen comments in this thread about time and timeline. These are things of the temporal created world.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

 

[redleghunter]

As I pointed out, the context of the passage is the resurrection. Paul isn't saying that the dead are with God. Paul's use of absent from the body isn't speaking of one's physical existence. He uses the metaphor of the body as the church. The body of Christ is the Church. If you look up the Greek words that are translated absent and present you'll find that they mean to be away from one's people or to go abroad and to be with or among one's people. He's not talking about a ghost leaving the body.

Even if you interpret "body" in 2 Corinthians 5 as the church (1) it does not change absent. That would mean we are absent from the temporal world and present with the Lord. The passage is quite clear Paul is speaking of his current situation of being physically here on earth and the when absent from his present state he will be present in the other--wirh the Lord. (2) Paul does lead off in the passage speaking of the resurrection. However, in verses 6-8 he cannot be speaking of the resurrection. We will be bodily resurrected as Jesus was. So how can we be absent from our resurrected bodies and present with the Lord?

 

[Butch5]

Even if you interpret "body" in 2 Corinthians 5 as the church (1) it does not change absent. That would mean we are absent from the temporal world and present with the Lord. The passage is quite clear Paul is speaking of his current situation of being physically here on earth and the when absent from his present state he will be present in the other--wirh the Lord. (2) Paul does lead off in the passage speaking of the resurrection. However, in verses 6-8 he cannot be speaking of the resurrection. We will be bodily resurrected as Jesus was. So how can we be absent from our resurrected bodies and present with the Lord?

I agree that he's talking about two different states. They are his present state and the resurrection which is what he's been talking about in this passage. He just got done writing about mortality being swallowed up by immortality. That's his current state being swallowed up by immortality.

You seem the unstated premise in your argument is that it is possible to be alive apart from the body. Yet we don't find that taught in the Scriptures. That idea comes from Greek Philosophy, not the Bible.

In your statement you've argued that Paul expects to be immediate with the Lord after he leaves the body. However, Paul gives no time frame. Christians just seem to assume it's immediate. That's based on the idea that they are alive apart from the body. However, Paul didn't believe people were alive apart from the body. We can see this in his words to the Corinthians.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

The only hope he gives for the Christian is the resurrection. If there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. He doesn't say that those who have died in Christ are in the presence of God. He says if there is no resurrection they've perished. So, we see here plainly what Paul believes about those who have died in Christ. An interpretation of 2 Cor. 5 that run contrary to what he's stated plainly here obviously isn't correct.

However, when we interpret 2 Cor. 5 as pertaining to the resurrection there is no conflict at all.

 

[martymonster]

I think you are confusing our bodies with our souls.

I already pointed out both Jesus and Paul tell their audience that they will be in the presence of the Lord when they die. Those are the Scriptures I provided.

Daniel 12 is about the resurrection where God makes us whole with glorified incorruptible bodies.

Why are you ignoring the references to 2 Corinthians 5? It's quite absolute. Are Paul's epistles in your canon?

Sigh.....I wounder if you could tell me what all this Resurrection bit is about then, you know, since the dead are really alive?

 

[martymonster]

Carnal minds can be burned out of them? Whatever new teaching is this?
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
and then Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Sounds like forever to me.

You know that the word "forever" is not scriptural right? Also, scripture is not to be understood literally.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

You seem the unstated premise in your argument is that it is possible to be alive apart from the body. Yet we don't find that taught in the Scriptures. That idea comes from Greek Philosophy, not the Bible.

We do. Revelation 6:9-11

In your statement you've argued that Paul expects to be immediate with the Lord after he leaves the body. However, Paul gives no time frame. Christians just seem to assume it's immediate. That's based on the idea that they are alive apart from the body. However, Paul didn't believe people were alive apart from the body. We can see this in his words to the Corinthians.

Paul gives quite frankly a very concrete statement. He refers to his present body and not his future resurrected body. Then says absent from this body and present with the Lord.

There is room for argument about the nature of our consciousness in the present with the Lord, but in order to know you are present, well you have to actually be present.

 

[redleghunter]

Sigh.....I wounder if you could tell me what all this Resurrection bit is about then, you know, since the dead are really alive?

Do you believe we have souls?

 

[redleghunter]

Also, scripture is not to be understood literally.

Not true. Scripture needs to be taken literally where it is clearly literal. If not then you relegate the cross and empty tomb to allegory.

Please explain this.

 

[martymonster]

Do you believe we have souls?

Gen 19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
Gen 19:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.

It's a bit of shame that Lot didn't have your understanding of what a "soul" is.
Look dude, your soul is just your personality. it's who you are. It is not some immortal ghost in the machine. That's why there is a first and second resurrection.

 

[redleghunter]

I submit that those who have died are not immediately in the presence of God. If we look at the context of this passage we see that Paul is speaking of the resurrection.

14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.1
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; t (2 Cor. 4:14-5:10 KJV)

Context is quite important as well as transitions in context.

Paul in verses 6-8 is clearly speaking of his present body and not the glorified body he will one day have. That's an important distinction in the text.

 

[redleghunter]

And what of......

Luke 23:42-43 (NKJV) Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Maybe Jesus was just too beaten up to think clearly and misspoke.

Beat me to it. You are correct Sir in reminding us Jesus gave that man that same promise and even put a timeline on it TODAY!