Are You A Sinner?

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How can I put this kindly. I do not crush my neighbour with impossible demands that I myself do not even try to keep.

I didn't write the New Testament. God did. If you have a problem with His commands in the New Testament, then take it up with God.

You said:
I do not neglect the love of God for me, for I know my rightstanding before him is what he did by sending His son to die for me. My hope of heaven, is not as the pharisees was, being good enough under the law, my hope of Heaven is in Jesus

But the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live soberly, godly, and righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Yet, you are saying that you are a sinner instead and you will always sin. Okay. I hope that works out for you. But please know that Jesus warned that there are dire consequences to our soul in the after life if we sin (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46). This is also true by the words of John (1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8), and Paul (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Galatians 5:19-21).
 
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daydreamer40

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We've already been over this before. I showed you the context before in the chapter that actually uses the word "old testament" in 2 Corinthians 3:14.

Also, was the New Testament Law engraved on stone? No. The Law of Moses sure was, though. So this is talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses.
You cannot show me any true context concerning this. The legalistic law could be perfectly obeyed. Paul said Saul the pharisee perfectly obeyed it, as I imagine did most other Pharisees, as Jesus said: They cleaned the outside of the cup. More confirmation. Saul the Phairsee was condemned due to not being able to obey the letter of the law engraved in stone, the law Paul the Christian stated the ministry of death and condemnation.
You will try and overturn the plainly written word any which way you can in order to cling to your righteousness of observing the law won't you
 
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daydreamer40

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He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The greater glory of the new covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

What brought condemnation?
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom7:7-11

As for zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless Phil3:6

Saul the Pharisee could only have been faultless concerning the legalistic law, for the moral law condemned him, the law engraven on stone!!!!!! Romans ch7
 
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daydreamer40

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I didn't write the New Testament. God did. If you have a problem with His commands in the New Testament, then take it up with God.



But the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live soberly, godly, and righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Yet, you are saying that you are a sinner instead and you will always sin. Okay. I hope that works out for you. But please know that Jesus warned that there are dire consequences to our soul in the after life if we sin (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46). This is also true by the words of John (1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8), and Paul (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Galatians 5:19-21).
I have a problem with you insisting others fully obey commandments you do not even try and obey
 
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daydreamer40

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This is how Christ's commandments should be viewed:

Carry each others burdens and fulfill(fulfill )the law of Christ Gal6:2

Christ's commands can be summed up as examples of love God and love your fellow man. The more you do that, the more you live according to Christ's teachings.
Those who tell you, you must concentrate on, and obey each and every literal command of Christ are guilty of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. For assuredly they do not practice what they preach.
 
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Grace is too hard for you to see right now isn't it.

I see grace just fine. However, I just do not turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4), or as an excuse not to obey His commands as laid out in the New Testament. For the very reason Christ died for us was so as to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). You say you are a sinner and you say that we can break God's Moral Laws to some degree and still be saved. This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality because the Bible teaches that you can overcome sin (See again 1 Peter 4:1, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

You said:
The power of sin is the law(of righteousness) 1 Cor. 15:56) What happens if you remove somethings power? It must weaken

The power of sin being the Law mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:56 is in context to death. For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). The sin of the Old Law does not apply to us anymore because Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. The power of sin being the Law in this case would be New Covenant Law (or the many commands given to us in the New Testament). For Paul is defending the resurrection and boasting how death will not have any victory over us. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 talks about the gospel in how Christ died for our sins and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. This is how we are initially and ultimately saved. By believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation. We are saved by God's grace through faith. The passage continues to say that Christ gives us the victory. This is victory over death and victory over the Law (which can bring death if we disobey God's Law under the New Covenant). But Paul is not denying that we are not under any kind of Law whatsoever here. For Paul then shortly says that our labor in the Lord is not in vain (See 1 Corinthians 15:58). This makes sense because in the Parable of the Talents, we learn that the servant who was faithful over a few things hears this from the Lord:

"Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).​

This was contingent upon him entering God's Kingdom because the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth (See Matthew 25:30).

You said:
I don't mean this unkindly, but the Pharisees were sticklers for the letter of what was written, and demanded the people fully obey it. Love of God and your neighbour, are the prime casualties in their approach

Actually, the Pharisees did not teach the true love of God as laid out within His Word. For Jesus said this of the Pharisees and Scribes:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Matthew 23:15).
 
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This is how Christ's commandments should be viewed:

Carry each others burdens and fulfill(fulfill )the law of Christ Gal6:2

Christ's commands can be summed up as examples of love God and love your fellow man. The more you do that, the more you live according to Christ's teachings.
Those who tell you, you must concentrate on, and obey each and every literal command of Christ are guilty of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. For assuredly they do not practice what they preach.

You say that we can break the Moral Law and still be saved. However, Romans 13:8-10 says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.). So you are preaching against the very thing you are seeking to defend. You also say that we are not to obey every literal command of Christ or we are guilty of hypocrisy like the Pharisees. Okay. That is pretty twisted to say that. That is like saying Jesus was teaching false commands that would lead us into hypocrisy. Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and give grace to the humble (James 4:6).
 
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Neogaia777

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Look no one is perfect, but we should strive for and aim for the high mark of the high calling, or keeping the commandments... Even if we never fully and perfectly attain, the efforts and progress at each step comes with it's own very good rewards... We should always be trying to make "forward progress" continually and try to not to backslide, but if we/you do backslide, pick yourself up, brush and dust yourself off, and "keep going forward" regardless...

Always forward, try to continually make forward progress, and aim for the mark of the high calling, and it does not even really matter if we ever even fully attain or reach our ultimate goal, the efforts and progress yields it's own rewards both in this life and the next...

Just make sure your on the right way and path, the path of faith and love, and not works and self... This will ensure the most true success overall...

God Bless!
 
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daydreamer40

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I see grace just fine. However, I just do not turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4), or as an excuse not to obey His commands as laid out in the New Testament. For the very reason Christ died for us was so as to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). You say you are a sinner and you say that we can break God's Moral Laws to some degree and still be saved. This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality because the Bible teaches that you can overcome sin (See again 1 Peter 4:1, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 2 Corinthians 7:1).



The power of sin being the Law mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:56 is in context to death. For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). The sin of the Old Law does not apply to us anymore because Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. The power of sin being the Law in this case would be New Covenant Law (or the many commands given to us in the New Testament). For Paul is defending the resurrection and boasting how death will not have any victory over us. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 talks about the gospel in how Christ died for our sins and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. This is how we are initially and ultimately saved. By believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation. We are saved by God's grace through faith. The passage continues to say that Christ gives us the victory. This is victory over death and victory over the Law (which can bring death if we disobey God's Law under the New Covenant). But Paul is not denying that we are not under any kind of Law whatsoever here. For Paul then shortly says that our labor in the Lord is not in vain (See 1 Corinthians 15:58). This makes sense because in the Parable of the Talents, we learn that the servant who was faithful over a few things hears this from the Lord:

"Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).​

This was contingent upon him entering God's Kingdom because the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth (See Matthew 25:30).



Actually, the Pharisees did not teach the true love of God as laid out within His Word. For Jesus said this of the Pharisees and Scribes:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Matthew 23:15).
Well I will respond to two points

1) you yourself commit sin, but I am sure you still believe you are saved when you do so. Yet you tell me, because I believe that I seek a licence to sin/have immorality.
You see Jason(I truly wish you could see) You are on such dangerous ground here, but refuse to see it

2) Which law does Paul state the believer is not under?

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a]'>[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6

The above is quite plainly written. Paul is speaking of not being under the law(dying to righteousness of obeying it) He also says, sinfull passions are aroused by the law. So which law is Paul speaking of here? All of it, or some of it? Lets read on, for Paul continues, giving a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7-11

The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law/not be under it came from the moral law: Thou shalt not covet. And this was the law, where sinfull passions were aroused in him by the law(verse8)
 
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daydreamer40

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You say that we can break the Moral Law and still be saved. .

I say what you believe in practice for your own life. What you cannot see is the difference between a person having imperfections they hate, because in their heart they want to follow after Christ, and someone who chooses to live a life of wilfull sin as a lifestyle
 
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I have a problem with you insisting others fully obey commandments you do not even try and obey

Sorry, you don't know my heart and life with God. I will let God be my judge and not you.
 
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Look no one is perfect, but we should strive for and aim for the high mark of the high calling, or keeping the commandments... Even if we never fully and perfectly attain, the efforts and progress at each step comes with it's own very good rewards... We should always be trying to make "forward progress" continually and try to not to backslide, but if we/you do backslide, pick yourself up, brush and dust yourself off, and "keep going forward" regardless...

Always forward, try to continually make forward progress, and aim for the mark of the high calling, and it does not even really matter if we ever even fully attain or reach our ultimate goal, the efforts and progress yields it's own rewards both in this life and the next...

Just make sure your on the right way and path, the path of faith and love, and not works and self... This will ensure the most true success overall...

God Bless!

Well, Jesus tells us to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Most will say that the word "perfect" here does not mean perfect but mature. But that does not make any sense because Jesus is comparing perfection here with the Father. The Father never had to mature at any point. The Father is perfect already. We are to be like the Father who is perfect by loving our enemies (See Matthew 5:43-47). That is one aspect of way we can be perfect. Another aspect or way we can be perfect is by forsaking things of this world for Jesus. We learn this in the "Story of the Young Rich Ruler" (See Matthew 19:21) (Note: In the rich young ruler's case, he was told to sell all of his riches and give it to the poor). Another way of being perfect is to do this:

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).

Another way of being perfect is by following Jesus and conforming to his teachings:

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).
 
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daydreamer40

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Sorry, you don't know my heart and life with God. I will let God be my judge and not you.
Though I do not know your life, I know you do not try and obey each and every literal command of Christ
 
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Well I will respond to two points

1) you yourself commit sin, but I am sure you still believe you are saved when you do so. Yet you tell me, because I believe that I seek a licence to sin/have immorality.
You see Jason(I truly wish you could see) You are on such dangerous ground here, but refuse to see it

Please show me which law you think I am violating that relates to my salvation that you think I have violated. I would like to know so I could confess of it and then seek to overcome it with God's help. As I told you before. I don't believe like you do. I do not believe all commands have the same consequences if we disobey them. I believe some commands God has given us are over a period of time for us to fulfill because it takes time to learn about them and therefore apply them to our lives (When we are able to do so in regards to other things we are doing for God). God realizes that we are not robots and he knows that we do need to sleep and do other things. By I have already told you this before and you did not accept it. Again, please re-read the Parable of the Talents. God did not demand of them right away to be profitable. God gave them time to be profitable for His Kingdom. In fact, we know all sins are not the same as you say because Jesus says there is a greater sin (See John 19:11).

You said:
2) Which law does Paul state the believer is not under?

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a]'>[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6

This is talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses and not the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.

Romans 7:6 says,
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

The oldness of the letter was in reference to the Torah or the Laws from the Torah (i.e. the Old Testament Scriptures).

This was not in reference to the New Testament Scriptures because they were still being formed and circulated. If Paul was against the written letter, he would not have written any letters then. He also would not have said that what he had written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord, too (See 1 Corinthians 14:37).
 
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Though I do not know your life, I know you do not try and obey each and every literal command of Christ

Here we go again. You said you don't know my life and yet you say you know my life to know that you think I do not try and obey every literal command of Christ. I think you are wrong. I do strive to do all of what Christ says. But it is in His timing and not my own. Granted, there are other things we do have to do every day. We do have to love our neighbor in the sense of keeping the Moral Law every day. Then again, you don't believe that I keep that, either. But that's okay. You can believe whatever you like. Just know it is not what the Scriptures teach. I have already asked for you to explain verses like 1 Peter 4:1-2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:24, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Romans 13:14. However, I did not see a post that addressed these verses (unless I missed it).
 
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2) Which law does Paul state the believer is not under?

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a]'>[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6

The above is quite plainly written. Paul is speaking of not being under the law(dying to righteousness of obeying it) He also says, sinfull passions are aroused by the law. So which law is Paul speaking of here? All of it, or some of it? Lets read on, for Paul continues, giving a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7-11

The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law/not be under it came from the moral law: Thou shalt not covet. And this was the law, where sinfull passions were aroused in him by the law(verse8)

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like. However, if Paul made these statements here as a Christian, they wouldn't make any sense.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?
 
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Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof."

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).
 
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But do Paul's words, "dead to the Law" in Romans 7:4 refer to the Moral Law alone because of Romans 7:14-24?

No.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is not exclusively referring to the Moral Law as the problem here. The problem was overcoming sin in regards to the Moral Law. Romans 8:3-4 refers to the Old Law in how it was weak, so God sent his own Son to condemn sin in the flesh so we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. walking after sin). Breaking the Moral Law still leads to death. For Paul says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

The flesh here is in reference to sin.

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).
 
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