"The Jesus prayer", should you pray it?

zoidar

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What are your thoughts of "the Jesus prayer"? It's a repetitive prayer. You repeat the words: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner". It can be done both in words and mind. Should you pray it, yes or no? Why, why not?
 
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What are your thoughts of "the Jesus prayer"? It's a repetitive prayer. You repeat the words: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner". It can be done both in words and mind. Should you pray it, yes or no? Why, why not?
Repetitive prayer can become a futile, perfunctory indulgence in "religiousness." Or, it can become a way of emphasizing a real, spiritual thought. Are we doing it for someone besides ourself, or are we "showing off?" Are we engaging in serious "self-deprecation," or humbling ourselves?

We need to know if our motivation is pure.
 
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What are your thoughts of "the Jesus prayer"? It's a repetitive prayer. You repeat the words: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner". It can be done both in words and mind. Should you pray it, yes or no? Why, why not?

Yes. I try to pray it continually.
 
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Repetitive prayer can become a futile, perfunctory indulgence in "religiousness." Or, it can become a way of emphasizing a real, spiritual thought. Are we doing it for someone besides ourself, or are we "showing off?" Are we engaging in serious "self-deprecation," or humbling ourselves?

We need to know if our motivation is pure.

+
Well in Orthodoxy, one has a gerons or geronda (a male or female elder, who if male is often one’s priest/confessor, but not necessarily) who advises us, particularly if our goal is hesychasm, which is a form of intense praying of the Jesus Prayer with the objective being that we learn to say the prayer continually in our heart. Hesychasm should only be attempted with an Orthodox elder who knows how to do it. There are similar prayer rules which do the same thing, for example, the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, and the Coptic recitation of the Psalter using the Agpeya (which my friend @dzheremi would be familiar with, as he is a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church).

+

One also normally says the Jesus Prayer silently, with the goal of the Hesychast being for it to be said in the heart continually, even while one is engaged in conversation or doing other things. I myself have a collection of prayer ropes and Lestovkas (leather counting devices used by the Russian Old Believers and Old Rite Orthodox, and also for praying the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, albeit in a different configuration), which are fun, and make praying the prayer for a set number of times easier, but when I don’t care about how many times I repeat it, I don’t need one. One characteristic of prayer ropes and lestovkas is their operation is silent, unlike rosary beads; prayer ropes also have a brush for absorbing tears, for it is considered good if one sheds tears of remorse and gratitude during the prayer.
 
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It's a good prayer to pray. In the last small group I was in, one person told us she had read about "breath prayers" as an idea for a daily devotion, which are prayers short enough they can be said in a single breath at various times throughout the day. The idea is that many people try to make prayer a long, drawn out process, and as a result put it off for a time when they can be alone for an extended period, which for many people means they just end up not praying at all. I doubt that whoever came up with "breath prayers" was aware of the Jesus Prayer, but it fulfills the same role.

For anyone interested, I would recommend reading The Way of a Pilgrim. It's an excellent testament to the power of the Jesus Prayer and the transformative role that ceaseless prayer can play.
 
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Well in Orthodoxy, one has a gerons or geronda (a male or female elder, who if male is often one’s priest/confessor, but not necessarily) who advises us, particularly if our goal is hesychasm, which is a form of intense praying of the Jesus Prayer with the objective being that we learn to say the prayer continually in our heart. Hesychasm should only be attempted with an Orthodox elder who knows how to do it. There are similar prayer rules which do the same thing, for example, the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, and the Coptic recitation of the Psalter using the Agpeya (which my friend @dzheremi would be familiar with, as he is a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church).

+

One also normally says the Jesus Prayer silently, with the goal of the Hesychast being for it to be said in the heart continually, even while one is engaged in conversation or doing other things. I myself have a collection of prayer ropes and Lestovkas (leather counting devices used by the Russian Old Believers and Old Rite Orthodox, and also for praying the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, albeit in a different configuration), which are fun, and make praying the prayer for a set number of times easier, but when I don’t care about how many times I repeat it, I don’t need one. One characteristic of prayer ropes and lestovkas is their operation is silent, unlike rosary beads; prayer ropes also have a brush for absorbing tears, for it is considered good if one sheds tears of remorse and gratitude during the prayer.
I find it interesting how those interested in historic Christian practices do so in a complete contrast with popular Christianity as I see it here in the US. I really don't know what to make of it, but I believe that you're sincere and that these practices help you maintain continuity using these religious exercises.

I grew up in Lutheran formalism--that's all I knew until my late teens. But underneath it all was an emerging modern interest in new approaches to our religion. I think there was always an interest to become more relevant in an age when new political winds were blowing, and old forms of religion just didn't seem to be touching bases with it.

Thanks for sharing...
 
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I grew up in Lutheran formalism--that's all I knew until my late teens. But underneath it all was an emerging modern interest in new approaches to our religion. I think there was always an interest to become more relevant in an age when new political winds were blowing, and old forms of religion just didn't seem to be touching bases with it.

The thing is, traditional liturgical churches are growing. The Orthodox Church is growing, with the exception of the ethnocentric Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which suffers from a number of problems. Indeed membership in the Coptic, Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Church is exploding, and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church in America and ROCOR all receive large numbers of converts, in addition to “cradle Orthodox” who are born into the church, who might be second or third generation converts or they might be members of traditionally Orthodox ethnic groups.

In Roman Catholicism, the Traditional Latin Masses were experiencing continual growth, both in terms of people choosing to attend the TLM, and also in terms of baptisms, while the more modern “Ordinary Form” of the mass has seen a steady decline in attendance.

In Lutheranism, confessional Lutheran churches like the LCMS, WELS, ELDONA and so on, and likewise in Anglicanism, the conservative jurisdictions such as ACNA and the Continuing Anglican churches, have not experienced the same catastrophic collapse in church membership as the liberal mainline ELCA and the Episcopal Church (which amusingly are in full communion, but it is not helping them).

Meanwhile, aliturgical evangelical churches, even the mighty Southern Baptist Convention, are stagnating in terms of membership, and the same is true of aliturgical non-denominationalist churches and fundamentalist churches and other non-traditional denominations, with the exception of Pentecostalism.

I suspect the reason why growth seems limited to the traditional churches and to the Pentecostal churches is because people want to experience mystery in their religion: they seek an encounter with the divine, and the watered down liturgies of the liberal mainline churches, which increasingly seem to be more about confessing a gospel of social justice and climate action rather than the Gospel of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ handed down from the Apostles, and likewise the highly intellectualized worship of those churches that stress the sermon over the sacraments and adopt a hard cessationist position, or which embrace the doctrinally vacuous rock music over the traditional hymns and the ancient canticles and Psalms of Christianity, which allow for worship to be done decently and in order, are losing their grasp, which seemed dominant and unstoppable until recently, for it seemed a truism that as the liberal mainline churches contracted, the aliturgical evangelical and fundamentalist churches would expand.

What motivates Pentecostals is the same thing as what motivates other traditional liturgical Christians, that being a desire to engage in the worship of the Apostolic Church; the tragedy is that the Pentecostals are unaware that what they are doing is not actually what the early church was like in terms of its worship and in terms of the charisms which are granted, which we can reconstruct from ancient liturgical manuscripts (for example, the second century Strasbourg Papyrus, which documents a liturgy which is traditionally dated to the first century, attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist, and which remains in regular use by the Coptic Orthodox Church even in the present). And in terms of the charisms, the experience of the Fathers suggests that these are not consistent with the Pentecostal experience, particularly not speaking in tongues without a translator, and there is a strong implication that that charism consists of speaking in a real language or being able to communicate without recourse to language, for the purpose of communicating the faith.

Likewise, I understand why snake holding Pentecostals do that, but it is an erroneous reading of a part of the Gospel of Mark whose authenticity is debated, so even if the longer ending of Mark is authentic (and I suspect it is, but it is noteworthy that it is missing from the oldest manuscripts), it is a misunderstanding.

Nonetheless, the fact they are growing and we are growing points to people having the desire for an authentic experience of the worship of the early church, and not the vacuous rock music or praise and worship music dominated services of the non-denominational churches, or the extreme liberalism of the mainline churches, which clearly contradicts scripture, for example, with regards to their willingness to ordain sodomites and to even wed them, which many traditional Christians regard as an offense against the sacrament of Holy Matrimony which makes a mockery of the teaching of both the Old and New Testaments concerning human sexual morality.
 
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The thing is, traditional liturgical churches are growing. The Orthodox Church is growing, with the exception of the ethnocentric Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which suffers from a number of problems. Indeed membership in the Coptic, Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Church is exploding, and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church in America and ROCOR all receive large numbers of converts, in addition to “cradle Orthodox” who are born into the church, who might be second or third generation converts or they might be members of traditionally Orthodox ethnic groups.

In Roman Catholicism, the Traditional Latin Masses were experiencing continual growth, both in terms of people choosing to attend the TLM, and also in terms of baptisms, while the more modern “Ordinary Form” of the mass has seen a steady decline in attendance.

In Lutheranism, confessional Lutheran churches like the LCMS, WELS, ELDONA and so on, and likewise in Anglicanism, the conservative jurisdictions such as ACNA and the Continuing Anglican churches, have not experienced the same catastrophic collapse in church membership as the liberal mainline ELCA and the Episcopal Church (which amusingly are in full communion, but it is not helping them).

Meanwhile, aliturgical evangelical churches, even the mighty Southern Baptist Convention, are stagnating in terms of membership, and the same is true of aliturgical non-denominationalist churches and fundamentalist churches and other non-traditional denominations, with the exception of Pentecostalism.

I suspect the reason why growth seems limited to the traditional churches and to the Pentecostal churches is because people want to experience mystery in their religion: they seek an encounter with the divine, and the watered down liturgies of the liberal mainline churches, which increasingly seem to be more about confessing a gospel of social justice and climate action rather than the Gospel of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ handed down from the Apostles, and likewise the highly intellectualized worship of those churches that stress the sermon over the sacraments and adopt a hard cessationist position, or which embrace the doctrinally vacuous rock music over the traditional hymns and the ancient canticles and Psalms of Christianity, which allow for worship to be done decently and in order, are losing their grasp, which seemed dominant and unstoppable until recently, for it seemed a truism that as the liberal mainline churches contracted, the aliturgical evangelical and fundamentalist churches would expand.

What motivates Pentecostals is the same thing as what motivates other traditional liturgical Christians, that being a desire to engage in the worship of the Apostolic Church; the tragedy is that the Pentecostals are unaware that what they are doing is not actually what the early church was like in terms of its worship and in terms of the charisms which are granted, which we can reconstruct from ancient liturgical manuscripts (for example, the second century Strasbourg Papyrus, which documents a liturgy which is traditionally dated to the first century, attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist, and which remains in regular use by the Coptic Orthodox Church even in the present). And in terms of the charisms, the experience of the Fathers suggests that these are not consistent with the Pentecostal experience, particularly not speaking in tongues without a translator, and there is a strong implication that that charism consists of speaking in a real language or being able to communicate without recourse to language, for the purpose of communicating the faith.

Likewise, I understand why snake holding Pentecostals do that, but it is an erroneous reading of a part of the Gospel of Mark whose authenticity is debated, so even if the longer ending of Mark is authentic (and I suspect it is, but it is noteworthy that it is missing from the oldest manuscripts), it is a misunderstanding.

Nonetheless, the fact they are growing and we are growing points to people having the desire for an authentic experience of the worship of the early church, and not the vacuous rock music or praise and worship music dominated services of the non-denominational churches, or the extreme liberalism of the mainline churches, which clearly contradicts scripture, for example, with regards to their willingness to ordain sodomites and to even wed them, which many traditional Christians regard as an offense against the sacrament of Holy Matrimony which makes a mockery of the teaching of both the Old and New Testaments concerning human sexual morality.
I'm happy you're hearing there are revivals and reforms in the old historic churches, and I have no problem with all of the liturgies, recitations, or traditions. All of these can be revived if *we* are revived. They all had their uses.

And I quite agree that modern forms of revival, such as Pentecostalism and Super-churches, have their own problems. They aren't necessarily better for being "casual" or demonstrative in their "charisms." They are just sheeple wanting to go somewhere in the modern world, ie they want to be *relevant.*

Thanks for your insight and grasp of what's going on in the Christian world. You've obviously got an IQ of about a thousand and me at about 100. ;)
 
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What are your thoughts of "the Jesus prayer"? It's a repetitive prayer. You repeat the words: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner". It can be done both in words and mind. Should you pray it, yes or no? Why, why not?
Not as a repetitive prayer. The Bible sees the redeemed as justified, not sinners. So to call ourselves sinners is to see us in a different way than God does.

Also, as believers, mercy has already been extended to us.
 
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Also, as believers, mercy has already been extended to us.

There is always a need for more mercy.

Not as a repetitive prayer. The Bible sees the redeemed as justified, not sinners. So to call ourselves sinners is to see us in a different way than God does.

Your argument has a major problem, in that according to it, the majority of Reformed Christians who regularly pray the Lord’s Prayer are in error, since this prayer requests the forgiveness of God, which is an act of mercy, and there is no scriptural indication it is only to be prayed one.

What is more a great many Calvinist churches use the prayer Lord Have Mercy in their liturgy, since Kyrie Eleison is the most common and ancient prayer next to the Lord’s Prayer and historically has been widely used in the original Greek, and a few languages have translated it, it being translated into East Syriac (but not West Syriac, where it remains in the Greek form and is often said following another Greek import “Stomen Kalos” so the result is “Stomenkaloskurie-eleison”, and in Church Slavonic “Gospodi Pomuli”, with the Copts also retaining the original Greek.

Not only that, but during my years in a Reformed denomination, the view was that we absolutely remain sinners, since we continue to sin, but that our regeneration by the Holy Spirit gives us hope of salvation.

I feel compelled to ask my Calvinist friends @bbbbbbb and @Mark Quayle to comment, as well as my Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @ViaCrucis since if I recall Lutheranism is somewhat monergistic.
 
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There is always a need for more mercy.
No there’s not.
Your argument has a major problem, in that according to it, the majority of Reformed Christians who regularly pray the Lord’s Prayer are in error, since this prayer requests the forgiveness of God, which is an act of mercy, and there is no scriptural indication it is only to be prayed one.
How is that my problem?
What is more a great many Calvinist churches use the prayer Lord Have Mercy in their liturgy, since Kyrie Eleison is the most common and ancient prayer next to the Lord’s Prayer and historically has been widely used in the original Greek, and a few languages have translated it, it being translated into East Syriac (but not West Syriac, where it remains in the Greek form and is often said following another Greek import “Stomen Kalos” so the result is “Stomenkaloskurie-eleison”, and in Church Slavonic “Gospodi Pomuli”, with the Copts also retaining the original Greek.
Still not my problem.
Not only that, but during my years in a Reformed denomination, the view was that we absolutely remain sinners, since we continue to sin, but that our regeneration by the Holy Spirit gives us hope of salvation.
I didn’t say that we didn’t sin. But the publican went away…wait for it…justified.
I feel compelled to ask my Calvinist friends @bbbbbbb and @Mark Quayle to comment, as well as my Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @ViaCrucis since if I recall Lutheranism is somewhat monergistic.
 
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It's a good prayer to pray. In the last small group I was in, one person told us she had read about "breath prayers" as an idea for a daily devotion, which are prayers short enough they can be said in a single breath at various times throughout the day. The idea is that many people try to make prayer a long, drawn out process, and as a result put it off for a time when they can be alone for an extended period, which for many people means they just end up not praying at all. I doubt that whoever came up with "breath prayers" was aware of the Jesus Prayer, but it fulfills the same role.

For anyone interested, I would recommend reading The Way of a Pilgrim. It's an excellent testament to the power of the Jesus Prayer and the transformative role that ceaseless prayer can play.

I myself would suggest On The Prayer of Jesus by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov for laity.


I think the Way of a Pilgrim reflects Hesychasm, and breath prayers, if you mean what I think you mean, are actually a component of Hesychast practices, and are considered potentially quite dangerous (The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way, both by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal*) and thus one needs a starets or gerons (or geronda) familiar with them to attempt them, and it is a major effort of monastics such as the Athonite disciples of Elder Joseph the Hesychast, including Elder Ephrem of Arizona, memory eternal, and likewise Elder Sophrony Sakharov, who was a spiritual son of Elder Silouan the Athonte and who established the Hesychasm-oriented Monastery of St. John the Baptist in Essex, which Metropolitan Kallistos once visited and found very pleasant (before he became a priest assigned to Oxford, and later an auxiliary Bishop, and then an auxiliary Metropolitan, Kallistos Ware was tonsured at the Monastey of St. John the Theologian on Patmos, of which he remained a lifelong member, as is normal, occasionally visiting his brethren as his schedule allowed).

Regarding Hesychasm, the Philokalia, translated by Elder Ephrem and Mother Mary, not to be confused with the Philocalia with a “c”, an anthology of the surviving spiritually beneficial writings of Origen Adimantius as opposed to the nonsense (sadly we have lost certain important lost texts like the Hexapla), the word Philokalia meaning “Love of beauty”, used as a more poetic alternative to “anthology”, is considered an important work, being an anthology of Patristic (and medieval writings the Orthodox regard as Patristic but which correspond with the Scholastic period of Roman Catholic theology, for example, by St. Symeon the New and St. Gregory Palamas) that pertain to prayer, mystical theology, and hesychasm directly. This was compiled by St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and St. Macarius of Corinth

There is also a slightly different Romanian edition, which I have heard contains additional works, but the English translation I have of it seems to be lacking quite a bit. Unfortunately Metropolitan Kallistos reposed before translating the fifth volume of the Philokalia, but it will be translated and released, and it might have been already.

@prodromos @HTacianas and @FenderTL5 may also be able to suggest additional resources.

I think it is worthy to pursue Hesychasm but to do it safely one needs to do so with an experienced Orthodox elder; it is not something I would suggest to members of other denominations, whereas the Jesus Prayer, a major component of Hesychasm, I suggest to everyone. Also one does not already have a more developed prayer rule, aim to say the Lord’s Prayer three times a day as a minimum prayer rule if as this practice states back to the very early church and is recorded in the Didache, a first century book of church order.




*Let me know if you need help accessing these or other Orthodox resources such as Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, since many can be accessed in PDF format via Scribd, which can be accessed for free, or borrowed from the InternetArchive’s Electronic Linrary.
 
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How is that my problem?

Well simply put, it would lead one to categorize your position as being outside the norm of Calvinist and reformed soteriology and liturgical theology.

I would also note that in instructing us to pray the Lord’s prayer nothing was said that would indicate we are only to pray it once. Rather, it has usually been regarded as the definitive form of Christian prayer and a template for all of our other prayers.
 
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I didn’t say that we didn’t sin. But the publican went away…wait for it…justified.

But given that it’s very likely he will commit a grave sin in the future it is always beneficial to ask for God’s forgiveness and mercy. Additionally, there are always temporal reasons pertaining to the struggles of this life, for asking for divine mercy.
 
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breath prayers, if you mean what I think you mean, are actually a component of Hesychast practices, and are considered potentially quite dangerous
From what we were told at the time I don't think there was any more to it than "a prayer short enough you could say it in one exhalation," not that you were supposed to actually say it in one exhalation or control your breathing in any way.
 
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Well simply put, it would lead one to categorize your position as being outside the norm of Calvinist and reformed soteriology and liturgical theology.

I would also note that in instructing us to pray the Lord’s prayer nothing was said that would indicate we are only to pray it once. Rather, it has usually been regarded as the definitive form of Christian prayer and a template for all of our other prayers.
Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
— John 13:10

We are not sinners if we are completely clean. We do need our feet washed, however. But not for justification.
 
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But given that it’s very likely he will commit a grave sin in the future it is always beneficial to ask for God’s forgiveness and mercy. Additionally, there are always temporal reasons pertaining to the struggles of this life, for asking for divine mercy.
Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
— John 13:10
 
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