Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

[BNR32FAN]

If you abide in Christ, you have faith. I’ve not said otherwise.

So what other requirements are necessary for salvation that abiding in Christ doesn’t already entail? What requirements could a person who is abiding in Christ possibly be missing?

 

[Hammster]

So what other requirements are necessary for salvation that abiding in Christ doesn’t already entail? What requirements could a person who is abiding in Christ possibly be missing?

Nothing. But you have said that we must abide in Christ to receive salvation. Scripture doesn’t state that, unless by salvation you mean glorification. If that’s the case, then it’s true.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nothing. But you have said that we must abide in Christ to receive salvation. Scripture doesn’t state that, unless by salvation you mean glorification. If that’s the case, then it’s true.

Then you don’t believe that John 15:6 refers to loss of salvation?

What are your thoughts on 24:10-13?

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Will those who do not endure to the end also be saved?

 

[Hammster]

Then you don’t believe that John 15:6 refers to loss of salvation?

It can’t. And here’s why. Those who abide bear fruit. And are pruned to bear more fruit. The production of fruit is dependent upon the Vinedresser (the Father). For us to stop producing fruit, He must be considered a failure. And this is just from this one illustration. We also have Christ the Shepherd not losing sheep given to Him by His Father. Christ cannot fail. There’s also us being sealed by the Spirit. He cannot fail.

And we have the Trinity in one passage, securing us.


Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
— Romans 5:1-5

 

[Hammster]

Will those who do not endure to the end also be saved?

Does the verse say that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

BNR32FAN said: ↑
Not according to John 15.

Yes, according to John 15 as well. It never says that you must abide first, and then you are saved.

In fact, john 15:1-7 isn't even about salvation. It's about bearing fruit, not salvation.

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

v.3 proves that those Jesus was speaking to were saved.
v.4 states the subject of the passage; bearing fruit, not salvation.

I am convinced the main reason for all the differences in doctrines among Christians is that so many just do not read the Bible very carefully.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It can’t. And here’s why. Those who abide bear fruit. And are pruned to bear more fruit. The production of fruit is dependent upon the Vinedresser (the Father). For us to stop producing fruit, He must be considered a failure. And this is just from this one illustration. We also have Christ the Shepherd not losing sheep given to Him by His Father. Christ cannot fail. There’s also us being sealed by the Spirit. He cannot fail.

And we have the Trinity in one passage, securing us.


Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
— Romans 5:1-5

Ok you said ”For us to stop producing fruit, He must be considered a failure.“ No we are the failure not Christ. John 15:2 specifically states that The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that doesn’t bear fruit. You just quoted the second half of this verse, how is it possible that you didn’t see this? Jesus didn’t say that every branch in Him will bear fruit. Only those who abide/remain in Him will bear fruit. Bearing fruit can take time. We see an example of this in Luke 13.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here we can see the expectation of The Father is obviously that this “tree” is expected to bear fruit but it is not certain whether or not the tree will. It may or it may not. If the “tree” does remain in Christ eventually it will bear fruit but if the tree doesn’t bear fruit in a timely manner then The Father will chop it down or as stated in the illustration of the vine the branch will be cut off.

I think perhaps you may be misunderstanding Jesus’ statement in John 15:5. Jesus does not say he who abides in Me WILL bear much fruit. He said
“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He who abides bears much fruit. The word “will” is not in the Greek text. So the branch is only capable of bearing fruit if it is attached to the vine but that is not a guarantee that the branch will bear fruit. The branch will only be allowed to remain in Christ if it does bear fruit. The Father will be patient with the branch but He will not allow the branch to remain in Christ forever if it is not bearing fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It can’t. And here’s why. Those who abide bear fruit. And are pruned to bear more fruit. The production of fruit is dependent upon the Vinedresser (the Father). For us to stop producing fruit, He must be considered a failure. And this is just from this one illustration. We also have Christ the Shepherd not losing sheep given to Him by His Father. Christ cannot fail. There’s also us being sealed by the Spirit. He cannot fail.

And we have the Trinity in one passage, securing us.


Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
— Romans 5:1-5

Ok now your reference to John 10.

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This doesn’t say that The Father will not cast them out if they stop following Jesus. Jesus said His sheep hear and follow not heard and followed. Also this does not say that no one can walk away from The Father’s hand of their own free will.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It can’t. And here’s why. Those who abide bear fruit. And are pruned to bear more fruit. The production of fruit is dependent upon the Vinedresser (the Father). For us to stop producing fruit, He must be considered a failure. And this is just from this one illustration. We also have Christ the Shepherd not losing sheep given to Him by His Father. Christ cannot fail. There’s also us being sealed by the Spirit. He cannot fail.

And we have the Trinity in one passage, securing us.


Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
— Romans 5:1-5

Ok next you quoted a tiny piece of what Paul says in Ephesians 4 but let’s examine the statement in its full context.


“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

But wait he’s not finished yet because his very next word is “Therefore”.


“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now Paul is telling these saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption not to grieve the Holy Spirit and that they MUST NOT turn back to a sinful way of life which will result in them losing their inheritance in the kingdom of heaven and receiving God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience.

 

[Hammster]

Ok you said ”For us to stop producing fruit, He must be considered a failure.“ No we are the failure not Christ. John 15:2 specifically states that The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that doesn’t bear fruit. You just quoted the second half of this verse, how is it possible that you didn’t see this? Jesus didn’t say that every branch in Him will bear fruit. Only those who abide/remain in Him will bear fruit. Bearing fruit can take time.

I have read it all multiple times. I’m taking into consideration all that is said. It never says that if a branch stops bearing fruit, it’s cut off.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
— John 15:6

Jesus doesn’t say what you are implying that He says.

 

[Hammster]

The Father will be patient with the branch but He will not allow the branch to remain in Christ forever if it is not bearing fruit.

You are adding to scripture. It never says that.

 

[Hammster]

Ok now your reference to John 10.

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This doesn’t say that The Father will not cast them out if they stop following Jesus. Jesus said His sheep hear and follow not heard and followed. Also this does not say that no one can walk away from The Father’s hand of their own free will.

A shepherd that lets sheep walk away is not, by definition, a shepherd. And for Christ to lose one given to Him by the Father would make Him a poor shepherd.

 

[Hammster]

Ok next you quoted a tiny piece of what Paul says in Ephesians 4 but let’s examine the statement in its full context.


“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

But wait he’s not finished yet because his very next word is “Therefore”.


“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now Paul is telling these saints in Ephesus who are faithful to
Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption not to grieve the Holy Spirit and that they MUST NOT turn back to a sinful way of life which will result in them losing their inheritance in the kingdom of heaven and receiving God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience.

Once again, you are reading into scripture what isn’t there. All he’s saying, much like in Romans 6, is to not live a life like those who are not saved. There nothing stated about losing an inheritance. Nothing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have read it all multiple times. I’m taking into consideration all that is said. It never says that if a branch stops bearing fruit, it’s cut off.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
— John 15:6

Jesus doesn’t say what you are implying that He says.

The Greek actually says every branch in Me NOT BEARING FRUIT. So this would include those who stop bearing fruit because they are NOT BEARING FRUIT.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are adding to scripture. It never says that.

The word Trinity is nowhere in the Bible but the teaching of the Trinity is. Those exact words I used to describe what is taking place both in Luke 13 and John 15 are not used but do accurately describe what is taking place.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A shepherd that lets sheep walk away is not, by definition, a shepherd. And for Christ to lose one given to Him by the Father would make Him a poor shepherd.

The sheep that does not follow Christ is not His sheep.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Once again, you are reading into scripture what isn’t there. All he’s saying, much like in Romans 6, is to not live a life like those who are not saved. There nothing stated about losing an inheritance. Nothing.

“But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You need to look up the definition of the word “For” it means because. So when Paul says these things must not be named among you BECAUSE this you know with certainty that no immoral, impure, or covetous man has an inheritance in the kingdom of God and Christ this is the reason why they must not do these things.

 

[Hammster]

The Greek actually says every branch in Me NOT BEARING FRUIT. So this would include those who stop bearing fruit because they are NOT BEARING FRUIT.

You are assuming something not in the text. It never says anything about anyone stopping the production of fruit.

 

[Hammster]

The word Trinity is nowhere in the Bible but the teaching of the Trinity is. Those exact words I used to describe what is taking place both in Luke 13 and John 15 are not used but do accurately describe what is taking place.

Poor argumentation. You are trying to explain what a particular text says. Using the “Trinity” doesn’t work in this case. Otherwise, you can make any text mean anything you want it to.

 

[Hammster]

The sheep that does not follow Christ is not His sheep.

Yep. They don’t hear His voice and follow. Those given to Him by the Father, however, are His. He won’t lose any.