Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

[BNR32FAN]

Just so I'm clear, Romans 2:2-4 applies to saved people...but Romans 7:15-23 applies to unsaved people. Do I have that right?

No those in Romans 2 are unrepentant so they are not saved. Both belief and repentance are necessary for salvation.

Romans 7 is referring to those who are on the path to salvation because of the conflict within them as a result of their turmoil between the guidance of the Holy Spirit and their flesh. I wouldn’t say they are saved yet because they must still abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive salvation. I believe when someone is referred to as saved it is referring to their current status.

 

[frumanchu]

Romans 7 is referring to those who are on the path to salvation because of the conflict within them as a result of their turmoil between the guidance of the Holy Spirit and their flesh. I wouldn’t say they are saved yet because they must still abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive salvation.

So the Apostle Paul wasn't saved...because he clearly shift tense in Romans 7 to his present condition at the time of his writing. Moreover, this is a reality that so many Christians identify with as they struggle against the world, the flesh, and the devil...and rather than it being an encouragement to them you are saying it's an indictment and that they are still dead in their sins apart from Christ. It apparently doesn't matter that the very fact they don't want to do those things is evidence of their changed heart and their desire in faith to obey God; because it's not perfect obedience they're separated from Christ and in a state of condemnation.

I believe when someone is referred to as saved it is referring to their current status.

That directly contradicts what you just said...that they must "abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive salvation."

 

[Hammster]

Romans 7 is referring to those who are on the path to salvation because of the conflict within them as a result of their turmoil between the guidance of the Holy Spirit and their flesh. I wouldn’t say they are saved yet because they must still abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive salvation. I believe when someone is referred to as saved it is referring to their current status.

The only way to come to that conclusion is if you ignore the previous three chapters and the long argument Paul is making. Chapter 7 does not stand on its own.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So the Apostle Paul wasn't saved...because he clearly shift tense in Romans 7 to his present condition at the time of his writing. Moreover, this is a reality that so many Christians identify with as they struggle against the world, the flesh, and the devil...and rather than it being an encouragement to them you are saying it's an indictment and that they are still dead in their sins apart from Christ. It apparently doesn't matter that the very fact they don't want to do those things is evidence of their changed heart and their desire in faith to obey God; because it's not perfect obedience they're separated from Christ and in a state of condemnation.



That directly contradicts what you just said...that they must "abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive salvation."

Sorry I got busy at work yesterday and was unable to reply. No I’m not saying that we can temporarily lose our salvation due to sin. I haven’t said anything to that effect in our entire discussion. I’m saying we can lose our salvation by willfully rebelling or rejecting God, by turning to unbelief, turning to hatred or discontent of God. Things of this nature where we are making a conscious choice not to serve Him. I believe selfishness can also result in loss of salvation if it is a frequent or continuous action. I believe our salvation is contingent on where our heart is. If we are seeking to serve Him then we’ll be fine but if we stop seeking to serve Him we will be condemned to the lake of fire unless we repent. God’s word gives many examples showing that He does have expectations of His children and our salvation is conditional.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Scripture Example:

Hebrews 10:29 - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 10:29
How much greater punishment do you think he will deserve who has rejected and trampled under foot the Son of God, ...

.....willfully rebelling or rejecting God, by turning to unbelief, turning to hatred or discontent of God. Things of this nature where we are making a conscious choice not to serve Him. I believe selfishness can also result in loss of salvation if it is a frequent or continuous action.....

 

[Hammster]

Sorry I got busy at work yesterday and was unable to reply. No I’m not saying that we can temporarily lose our salvation due to sin. I haven’t said anything to that effect in our entire discussion. I’m saying we can lose our salvation by willfully rebelling or rejecting God, by turning to unbelief, turning to hatred or discontent of God. Things of this nature where we are making a conscious choice not to serve Him. I believe selfishness can also result in loss of salvation if it is a frequent or continuous action. I believe our salvation is contingent on where our heart is. If we are seeking to serve Him then we’ll be fine but if we stop seeking to serve Him we will be condemned to the lake of fire unless we repent. God’s word gives many examples showing that He does have expectations of His children and our salvation is conditional.

He love us because we first loved Him. That’s the takeaway.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He love us because we first loved Him. That’s the takeaway.

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Hammster]

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

There’s nothing in there about loss of salvation.


Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
— Romans 5:9-10

If you have been made righteous, you will be saved from His wrath.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There’s nothing in there about loss of salvation.


Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
— Romans 5:9-10

If you have been made righteous, you will be saved from His wrath.

So no need to abide in Christ or endure to the end then?

 

[Hammster]

So no need to abide in Christ or endure to the end then?

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
— Romans 6:1-11

 

[BNR32FAN]

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
— Romans 5:9-10

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
— Romans 6:1-11

What’s your answer, yes or no? Do we need to abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
— Romans 6:1-11

why did you stop at verse 11? Let’s continue the very next two verses shall we?


“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Sorry that was supposed to be quoted 12-16.


“For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:14-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Hammster]

What’s your answer, yes or no? Do we need to abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive salvation?

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
— Romans 6:5-7

So to answer your question, no. Your question would make no sense to Paul. Our justification has nothing to do with us. It’s all of Christ.

 

[Hammster]

why did you stop at verse 11? Let’s continue the very next two verses shall we?


“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Romans 6:12-13 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now

I could have posted the whole chapter. Here Paul is continuing to tell us that we should not continue in sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So no need to abide in Christ or endure to the end then?

Absolutely there is. For blessings and eternal reward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I could have posted the whole chapter. Here Paul is continuing to tell us that we should not continue in sin.

And, not surprisingly, he says nothing about losing salvation.

What many seem to miss is that the loss of salvation is such an important issue that if true, the Bible would be full of explicit warnings in plain language about it.

But, there are none.

 

[BNR32FAN]

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
— Romans 6:5-7

So to answer your question, no. Your question would make no sense to Paul. Our justification has nothing to do with us. It’s all of Christ.

If you are correct in your interpretation of what Paul is saying, but then again that would mean that Paul would be contradicting what Christ Himself said.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

But I’m glad you made your position clear for everyone to know that you believe that a person does not need to abide in Christ to receive salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you are correct in your interpretation of what Paul is saying, but then again that would mean that Paul would be contradicting what Christ Himself said.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

No, it would obviously mean that you do not understand what Christ was talking about. The clear subject of John 15:1-6 is bearing fruit. That's works, not salvation. In order to bear fruit, and to receive reward and blessing for that, one MUST abide in Christ.

The error is thinking that abiding in Christ refers to maintaining your own salvation through your own efforts, whatever one may think they are.

But I’m glad you made your position clear for everyone to know that you believe that a person does not need to abide in Christ to receive salvation.

This poster has had me on "ignore" for a long time, so he doesn't see my comments to his posts.

Maybe another poster will take my points and see how he responds to them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I could have posted the whole chapter. Here Paul is continuing to tell us that we should not continue in sin.

Close but he’s actually saying that we cannot willfully indulge in sin using Christ’s atonement as an excuse.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15‬ ‭NASB

If we are sinning BECAUSE we are under grace then the sin becomes willful and we would be using grace as an excuse to sin and therefore our heart is not set on serving God but instead it is set on serving satan which results in death.

 

[Hammster]

If you are correct in your interpretation of what Paul is saying, but then again that would mean that Paul would be contradicting what Christ Himself said.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

But I’m glad you made your position clear for everyone to know that you believe that a person does not need to abide in Christ to receive salvation.

You have a category error. You believe that you must do something to be saved and stay saved. Paul is clear that we are either in Adam or in Christ. If you are in Christ, the old man is dead. We’ve been crucified with Christ, buried, raised with Him and seated with Him at the right hand of His Father.

Paul’s argument is that we shouldn’t be taking this for granted. It’s true that where sin increases graves increases more. That’s a biblical truth that you seem to ignore. But Paul is emphatic that this is not a license to sin. That’s his argument.