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Featured Are we created eternal?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How do you explain Jesus talking about "the rich man and Lazarus" (Luke 16:19-31)? How do you explain Jesus talking about cutting off body parts to avoid a place where the fire is never quenched (Mark 9:43-48) if their is no consciousness of what one is enduring? Why would there be weeping and gnashing of teeth, if there is no consciousness, as found in these verses:

    Matthew 13:41-42 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    Luke 13:27-28 27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."
     
  2. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As soon as the topic turned to salvation, I was wondering how long before you would enter the conversation.
    .
     
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  4. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is the very reason that I was digging into whether we were created as eternal beings. We have bought a bunch of hand-me-down lies. We have to get to the bottom of them to know the Truth. What kind of "fire" can hold the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, human souls, and death and the grave--because we are told that all will be in there?

    So, do you think the Lake of Fire is an actual fire, as we perceive fire?

    Why would the fire last forever, if it has nothing to burn? And, if it has nothing to burn, how does smoke still rise?

    How long do you think they suffer and when do you think they die?
     
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  6. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree it is a place (sheol/hades and the lake of fire/gehenna), but not necessarily as we understand "a place" in our limited current capacity. It is a place where a variety of entities (human souls, satan and his angels, the beast, the false prophet, and death and hades/sheol) are placed and can't escape.
     
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  10. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Depends on how you define "eternal"? I define eternal as with no beginning nor end, which is timeless. That attribute applies only to God who is eternity.

    However, most people interchange "eternal" and "everlasting" as synonyms. Our created spirits are "everlasting" spirits, which means they are never destroyed. Those who reject Christ continue to live apart from Christ in Hell, then the Lake of Fire.

    John, in his epistle, says:
    1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    If a person does not accept the salvation of Christ, they can not have eternal life because eternal life is in Christ. In other words, God, who is eternal life, is in His Son.

    This is why I make the distinction between the two words: eternal means no beginning nor end. Everlasting means a beginning with no end. It matters to me because cults like the LDS believe they are eternal spirits with no beginning, thus equating themselves as gods already.
     
  11. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Alex, that is a great distinction and thanks for clarifying. I agree that we aren't eternal (with no beginning). We have a very clear beginning. But, no ending.

    I think for those born again, we will have an everlasting spirit, soul, and body. For those who aren't born again, I don't think they have a "spirit". Their soul is the everlasting part of them. Because you have to be born of the Spirit to have a spirit, the soul is the basic everlasting part of all men.
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your unsupported opinion of what might or might not be the "best words & expressions" Jesus "should" have used has zero merit therefore is not relevant to this discussion.
    So your argument is that when Jesus taught "eternal punishment,""hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die." etc to Jews who believed all of this,

    Minim [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    The Jews would not think He was supporting the above listed beliefs? What plane of reality are you on?
    An empty claim with no supporting discussion, zero value. if you think any passage opposes anything I post explain in detail why you think so
    Once again presuming to know what the writer of Hebrews should have, would have, could have said in any situation is pure speculation, and does not refute or disprove anything and never will.
    You evidently do not know what "fables and myths" are. This argument is just muddying the water. Slinging mud at the wall hoping it will stick and maybe some of your fellow UR-ites might believe it. How the Jews interpreted the Hebrew scriptures and their practice and faith based on those scriptures are not "fables and myths."
    .....Unless you can show me where Jesus, Himself, specifically addressed and condemned the then existing belief in hell, no matter how many times you repeat "fables and myths" it is ridiculous and irrelevant.
    .....Here are some actual Jewish myths and legends to help you know what you are talking about the next time you want to dismiss something as "myths and legends."
    Colossians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind.
    Colossians 2:21-22
    [21] "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
    [22] These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.​
    More Jewish myths and legends.
    [1]Because of the bitterly cold winds which arise from the area, the ancient Hebrews considered the north to be the home of all evil spirits.
    In this myth, when God had almost finished all of creation, he stopped short at the north corner of the world.
    [2] This myth asks a fascinating question: what happened to the darkness that existed before the creation of the world?
    According to this story, it is sealed away and hidden in the seventh compartment of Gehenna, another name for hell, where the wicked are sent upon death.
    [3] In this myth, the King of Bashan, who happened to be a giant named Og, promised to swear fealty to Noah if he would allow the giant onto the ark during the Biblical flood.
    Noah conceded, and Og rode atop the ark’s roof, becoming the only giant to survive the flood.
    Read more at 8 Fascinating Jewish Myths



     
  13. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Luke 16:19-31 speaks actually about hades, not about hell. Revelation tells later that Hades will be thrown to hell.

    Mark 9:43-48 doesn’t tell that people are conscious in hell.

    There probably will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when people see that they lose their life and everything. It doesn’t mean they eternally suffer there.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    So, death penalty is not actually any penalty at all?

    But, for me, it doesn’t matter if it is not considered punishment. The truth is that eternal life is for righteous and others don’t have that. And if one doesn’t have life, it is difficult to see how dead person could feel or suffer.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That point was already addressed in this post to you:



    Where does any OT Scripture say "hell shall pass away"? Where does any OT Scripture say "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"? Where does any OT Scripture say "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews"? Those are all quotes by anti-Christian Jews from your post. Where does any OT Scripture support such opinions from anti-Christian Jewish sources?

    Clearly the opinions of the anti-Christian Jews you quoted were wrong about the Messiah in their rejection of Jesus Christ and Christian truths based on the OT. So why should they be right about the things you quoted them saying? In fact Jesus warned about the teachings of the Pharisees, who BTW appear to have believed in endless punishment:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Furthermore, your post didn't provide any evidence that your quotes from anti-Christian Jews were believed by any Jews at the time of Jesus (c. 30 AD). Yet you alleged they were believed by some Jews from "before and during the time of Jesus".

    Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?

    A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before: Early church opposition to endless hell

    If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?

    "the Jewish belief in hell"? There was only one such belief c.30 AD? What was that? Where is your evidence of this one unified Jewish belief believed by - all - Jews c.30 AD? Or is that another myth among the many other myths from you already quoted in this post & yours which it is replying to?

    I posted:

    No doubt the Jews had varying beliefs about hell, not just one belief. Even your own post acknowledged that.

    False. You had stated:

    No doubt the Jews had varying beliefs about hell, not just one belief. Even your own post acknowledged that.

    There's no such thing as a unified "the Jewish belief in hell". There have been, are and will be many different Jewish beliefs, ideas & theories re hell. Ditto for Christianity & other religions. Including ideas re a temporary hell & hell as a place where sinners get saved, etc. Even your own post on Jewish beliefs speaks of hell being temporary & people coming out of hell. Even Biblical Universalism acknowledges hell postmortem (Hades, Gehenna, the lake of fire), so any of your mere references to "hell" by anti-Christian Jews are irrelevant as far as refuting the Scriptural teaching of the ultimate reconciliation of all humanity is concerned. That is, besides the fact that anti-Christian Jewish opinions are not inspired, inerrant, or Scripture. And why do you even bother with them after you yourself stated:

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
    Questions Without Answers
     
  16. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Johnny, I really appreciate your wanting to tease out these various thoughts. If one is born again, the Bible repeatedly tells us that we have "eternal" life, not "everlasting" life.
    Paul told the Corinthians:

    1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    The new birth takes our created human spirits that had a beginning, and joins us to the eternal Spirit of God who has no beginning. We have eternal life because our lives are joined to His life. I know this is a bit of a conundrum. From our point of view we know we had a beginning and celebrate it every year on our birth days. But our new spirits are not just created, but joined to His Spirit through Christ.

    To say that the unregenerate have no spirit ignores James who said:

    Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Also, the word, "regenerate" means to be "birthed again". There can be no "again" (prefix "re-") if a birth had not occurred once before. Regeneration in the NT does not refer to our bodies, but our spirits.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I'll tell you where scripture says all of this just as soon as you show me the scriptures which says "even if they do not repent in this life all the unrighteous, unrepentant will be saved after death" or words to that effect. And I don't mean quote verses which say "savior of the world."
    Irrelevant! Does not specifically address anything I posted.

    More irrelevant quotes which do not specifically address anything I posted.


    You might want to actually read my post especially the Talmud which was compiled after the time of Jesus but quotes writings before the time of Jesus.

    The book of Enoch and Judith and others not in the Christian canon are considered scripture by the Jews. Your argument is rejected! I expected this objection a lot sooner than this.

    Your opinion about worms and unquenched fire is irrelevant. Jesus talked about them and the Jewish sources I quoted talked about them
    Still trying to dictate which words Jesus and others should or should not have used to satisfy you. What Jesus did say virtually mirrored the words that the Jews.

    I have clarified this many times yet you continue to drag out this red herring trying to make it look like I said something I did not say. Why don't you try a little honesty for a change and admit that I have NEVER said or implied that the belief in hell was the only afterlife belief the Jews had.

    The same wall of text arguing the same thing over and over which I have explained many times before and above. Get off it already and try arguing about something I actually said.
     
  18. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    Johnny4ChristJesus: Jesus told the thief on the cross beside him in Luke 23:43.."And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

    In Rev. 2:7 (same period of time), a letter to the Churches explains were we all are after we die in Christ. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

    If you still have doubts as to where the "Dead in Christ" souls are located; look to Steven who was stoned to death for telling the truth about the Jewish betrayal. Acts 7:55-56.."But he (Steven), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Emphasis added)


    Sheol (Sheowl- Hebrew/ Hades (Greek), Hell (English)are the same.

    Gehenna was described as the final destination for those in Sheol or Hades. In this case it as you said: The Lake of Fire as seen in Rev 20.



    As far as who was in Abraham's Bosom is hard to follow. Of course it all comes down to the Grace of GOD. This happened when they died. Were their names written in the Book of Life. One has to separate the Grace of Jesus Christ today with His grace in the Old Testament. While no one except Jesus could have followed the law perfectly, what was the standard God required to separate the Sheep from the Goats.

    King David will be in Heaven, I have no doubt. I look forward to meeting him. Yes, He did sin but God punished Him. Rem. David's son built the temple because would not let David. However, David understood and told the Lord that He would pay for the Temple. This was acceptable to God. King David is the royal Line that Jesus, the man, came from,,,etc.



    When the Rapture happens and it will those who do not are true believers in Jesus Christ and His Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4) will be left behind. Pure and simple. There will be people in all churches on earth who have overcome and there will be people in those same churches that will be left behind. It is my opinion that these people will recognize their faults and will become true believers. This period of time is said by most scholars as the largest evangilization of people to GOD that ever was or will be... As conformation, we see in Rev 6:9-11..the Marytred saints.. who cry for GOD to avenge them. God does this and this is seen in Rev. 7:13-14..known as "tribulation saints"

    In Rev 19:20, The Beast ("pseudo christ, Anti-christ) and the False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. Rem, these are mortal humans.

    In Rev 20:10, we see that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire and in it are still the Beast and the False Prophet after 1000 years. Yes, the Lake of Fire is eternal.

    I apologise this was so long, I get carried away when speaking of Jesus.

    Blade
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I get very perturbed when someone deliberately misquotes or misrepresents what I said.
    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    This means that all mankind, 100%, will die and they will be resurrected. But nothing says that anyone will die a second time.
    …..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    …..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
    …..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

    …..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
    Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
    Luk 16:22-28
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
     
  20. Blade

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    Yes..knowing Christ or not.. when you die..you do not just disappear.

    What WAS before Christ ask in what happens after you die. Does the exact same thing happen? Just what were those KEYS that CHRIST now has? Some still get stuck on "hell burning suffering forever". One Christ will never use fear to get some into the kingdom. MAN knows that works. Yet the Father is not a man nor does He think like one.

    Now if we take Christ at His word. Those that believe in Him shall have ever lasting life. Those that do not? Get it anyway? NO. After this life some will stand before the great white throne. Some will get the same reward as Satan. Please.. we are man. If as some say.. they will be tossed in hell burning suffering forever.. what is that to you? You and I have no say here. The Father will not ask how you FEEL about this. For we dont know the heart of anyone and HIS judgment is just. Or if they burn suffer then gone forever again what is that to you?

    Again if this was cut and dry we would not be talking here. But the fact is we truly dont know and our personal feelings about this matter not. ALL if this is HIS WAY period. Yet I have seen a GOD/Father that HAD to judge a people ..yet looked for just ONE among them so He would not have to.. yet found none. I see a GOD/FATHER would save a wicked unholy unrighteous cities for just 10 righteous. Yet..when only ONE was found.. this GOD still said "as long as you are here I can do nothing"..this is only TWO things..

    The 3rd greatest of all. This GOD/FATHER that made ALL leaves heaven.. becomes what HE made.. then takes ALL the sin past now and future upon Himself..He pays the price for something we did unknownly knowingly and did it freely lovingly. One MUST look at all this..then try to talk about HELL suffering for ever or not.

    To some... THANKS really..for all the verses...but share one WHY you are putting those up there. Well SOME of the verses.. one can say "what that is really saying, What Christ really meant". I believe what Christ was saying.. I believe.. share
     
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