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Featured Are we created eternal?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (1) How is it torment if you don't feel it? If I beat on a dead piece of meat in a meat freezer with a baseball bat, is that tormenting the cow who is already dead? So, at the point that you are dead, how is it everlasting punishment? Why would Jesus use the same word (translated "eternal") for both? Why wouldn't He just say: "These will be permanently killed" or "tormented to death" if what you think He meant is actually what He meant?

    (2) He didn't say we all live eternally, because we don't. Jesus defined eternal life differently than we do. Jesus said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." So, those who don't know Him don't have eternal life, by the very definition Jesus gives.

    (3) For those who are suffering eternal punishment, it certainly wouldn't seem like "life" to be tormented. Jesus doesn't call it "eternal life", he calls that "eternal punishment".

    (4) I do agree that we are all worthy of death, because of our sin. However, Jesus paid the price for all. Jesus even said He would draw all men to himself. We are saved from the wrath of God (not the wrath of another god, but of GOD), right? God put the stipulation that "whosoever believes...", not me., right?

    (5) You are right that the rescue operation is significant whether it is eternal suffering or not. I didn't word that correctly. The opportunity to know and live with God is a far greater consequence, either way.

    (6) My bigger point was that if something about people wasn't everlasting, then why did Jesus talk as if some consciousness was living on and tormented in hades (presumably all the way until the judgment)? And, if they were still conscious for that long, then why would it be logical to believe that it all stopped when they are cast somewhere where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? And, Scripture says the devil is tormented day and night forever, not tormented day and night until he dies.
     
  2. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not confused. I just said that that verse doesn't prove that we will be where Jesus currently is, just because Jesus is there.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Concerning “punishment” one early church father, Justin, wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  4. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I didn't quote Justin. I don't know how that was attributed to me.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I quoted Justin to show that at least one ECF agreed with what you said about punishment. The quote function went haywire and I couldn't fix it.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
    Questions Without Answers
     
  7. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    We (our souls) are in a container (mortal Body), much like Data on Memory card. The Data on that memory card cannot be seen, it does not weigh anything (?) and if You destroy the container, the data is gone, not destroyed. As in your Body, your soul is eternal. It weighs nothing (?) and when your body is destroyed (dead), the souls is not destroy just gone to one of two places.

    God gives us a choice of the living arrangements for that eternity after our mortal body dies. Have you made your choice. The Choices are living with GOD on streets of Gold or living with pure evil in the eternal Lake of Fire. It is an 'Either/Or' Choice as there is no third option.

    OH, The ability to make this choice STOPS when you DIE! and we are not guaranteed the next minute. Don't believe I would tarry long.


    (?) Yes, it is true, the soul weighs nothing. People who have died were weighed each day they were hospitalized. WHen they died, they were weighed and nothing had changed.

    (?) Much like the Data Card and You can do this experiment. Simply weigh the data card when it is empty of data. Then fill it up will as much data as the card will allow. Now weigh it again. You will find the card weighs the same as it was empty.



    Blade
     
  8. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    The Bible tells us that if we are in Jesus, when we die or are Raptured, we will be redeemed, transfigured and will be with Jesus Christ everywhere He goes. We are the Body of Jesus Christ.

    I thought you meant we could not use what Steven saw, as He was dying, to hope we would be in heaven when we die? If this is the case, My Bad.

    Blade
     
  9. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    You put so much in your post about so many different topics that no-one cares to answer you. Is that your intent?

    Blade
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's only been like 2 hours since my post. Why don't you give it a few days or weeks?

    If you look at my thousands of other posts, newbie, they are often the same & often answered.
     
  11. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    Johnny4ChristJesus...Have you ever read the Rich Man and Lazarus story.. It will answer your questions. Luke 16:19-31

    Blade
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    About the word ”torment”, Bible tells the torment it the fire. If fire torments it means fire burns. And fire can burn, even if the ones in fire are not alive. I don’t think it means torture in this.
     
  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think at this point, we should move on. Neither of us believes Scripture supports the other's position. We have made our points. When "the time" comes, we will know what happens.
     
  14. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. That is actually what I was using to explain why I think torment is an uncomfortable place to be--where you are conscious. 1213 has been trying to convince me that "torments" is just a synonym for fire and that you can be dead burning and still would be in "torments". To me, the devil isn't tormented for ever and ever (Rev 20:10) if he has no consciousness of being tormented, simply because his dead shell is in a fire.
     
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