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Featured Are we created eternal?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <J4CJ>This is the very reason that I was digging into whether we were created as eternal beings. We have bought a bunch of hand-me-down lies. We have to get to the bottom of them to know the Truth. What kind of "fire" can hold the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, human souls, and death and the grave--because we are told that all will be in there?
    So, do you think the Lake of Fire is an actual fire, as we perceive fire?
    Why would the fire last forever, if it has nothing to burn? And, if it has nothing to burn, how does smoke still rise?
    How long do you think they suffer and when do you think they die?
    <end>
    People argue that whatever fire burns is destroyed but the fire didn't destroy the bush that Moses saw and it didn't destroy the three Hebrews thrown into the furnace which was heated 7 times hotter than normal. If God wants a fire to be eternal, it will be eternal. God is not limited by our "physics." There is an old maxim about interpreting scripture "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
    Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
     
  2. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    Will take the "Lake of Fire" literally as a lake of FIRE... It could very well be something like the sun that uses Hydrogen and will burn for bi8llions of years according to our scientist.

    As the Bible tells us that it (the Lake of fire) is removed from God's presence, I could very well be in another dimension. The Bible does allude to at least ten dimensions.

    Is the fire actual... The story Jesus told about the Rich man and Lazarus tells us the Rich man whose soul was in Hell was being tormented by the Heat. Of course Hell is just a resting place for those destined for the Lake of Fire.

    How long will it burn and how long will they suffer.

    The Bible tells us that Jesus places the anti-christ and the false Prophet into the Lake of Fire after the battle of Armageddon. Satan is then tied up and thrown into a bottomless pit for 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years Satan is again loosed and gathers an army against GOD again. Jesus Destroys the army, by fire and their souls all go to the Lake of Fire. The Devil is also thrown into the Lake of Fire where the Beast (anti-christ) and the False Prophet are awaiting. So the Lake of Fire will last for at least 1000 years and God tells us it is forever.

    The Bible tells us those who are left after the 1st resurrection will be in the 2nd resurrection. The souls awaiting in Hell will be reunited with their Bodies for the grave to stand before the White Throne Judgement by God (the Father). They will be judged on their Deeds (works) throughout their live. Most all will go into the Lake of Fire... The Fire in the Lake will consume their mortal bodies forever and their Souls will be left in the Lake of Fire for torment forever.


    amen to your last paragraph.

    Blade
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I posted:

    Where does any OT Scripture say "hell shall pass away"? Where does any OT Scripture say "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"? Where does any OT Scripture say "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews"? Those are all quotes by anti-Christian Jews from your post. Where does any OT Scripture support such opinions from anti-Christian Jewish sources?

    Der Alter replied:


    The answer to that is another topic (already addressed elsewhere) than your post with quotes from anti-Christian Jews. You also posted some Scripture verses & then concluded Jesus' "
    teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell". You reach this conclusion because some of Jesus' words bear some similarity to what the Jewish quotes say, even though they are still quite different and don't arrive at the same conclusion of "eternal hell" which Jesus rejected. If Jesus meant to affirm a belief in "eternal hell" in an anti-Christian Jewish writing, why didn't He use the exact words? Or did He mean to reject their teaching by rejecting the language they used which affirms "eternal hell"?

    Yet you have provided no evidence that the particular Jews Jesus was speaking to in any specific Scripture context held to such a belief at the time Christ spoke to them c. 30 AD. In fact you stated that there were a variety of beliefs among the Jews about the afterlife. So which of the various beliefs was Jesus supposedly affirming or rejecting? How would you know unless you compare some of the other Jewish views? Did they also use some phrases that were similar to Jesus' statements? If so, then how do you know which of the various Jewish views Jesus was rejecting or affirming?


    I did read it. Your post didn't provide any evidence that your quotes from anti-Christian Jews were believed by any Jews at the time of Jesus (c. 30 AD). Yet you alleged they were believed by some Jews from "before and during the time of Jesus".

    Of all your quotes from anti-Christian Jews, only one of them speaks of an eternity of pain, assuming it is even correctly translated. None of the others refer to "eternal hell". So you are basing your argument on a single Jewish quote. And is this quote merely an interpretation of, or quote, from an apocryphal Jewish writing, Judith, rejected by the Jews from their canon? Was it written at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD) or generations or centuries apart from Christ's time? Your answer is the Judith quote is "according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era". So where is your evidence of a Jewish belief in "eternal hell" at the time of Christ?

    I posted:

    Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?

    Der Alter replied:



    There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
    The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

    Judith an "Apocryphal book".
    JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    "Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
    The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

    "The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
    The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

    "The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked

    "Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."

    "The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
    Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks

    "The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine) Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?


    Speaking of legends:

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    I posted:

    A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not necessarily equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before: Early church opposition to endless hell

    If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?

    Der Alter replied:


    On this forum are Christians talking about the same things. Does that mean they all believe in an "eternal torture chamber"? Yet that's what your argument amounts to. Lame.



    I just used your same method to argue against your conclusion. First you assume Jesus believed in "eternal hell". Then you assume He confirmed a belief in "eternal hell" allegedly believed by an ancient Jewish apocryphal author just because he used some similar but different language as Jesus did. Yet the Jewish author's words, if they were properly translated, clearly affirm "eternal hell", while Jesus' words do not.



    Why would He leave out the most important part, the part about an eternity of pain, if He was wishing to affirm a Jewish person's belief in an eternity of pain? Clearly He didn't mirror the beliefs of the Pharisees, since He rejected a number of their beliefs, for He warned against the teachings of the Pharisees:


    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

     
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

    1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

    Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
    and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
    3:17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
    4:42 Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."
    12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.

    Acts 3:21 For he must remain in heaven until the times for the restoration of all, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

    Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
    to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
    11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
    "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
    11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
    11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory -- into the eons. Amen.


    2 Cor.5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ,
    reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.

    Genesis 12:3
    I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you."
    Gal.3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”


    Heb.1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
    2:9 Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
    2:17 so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people.
    8:11,12 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.'
    For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already.
    And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins
    9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once with a view to the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    1Pet.3:18-20 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been
    made alive in the spirit, in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah
    -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
    4:6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sinsand not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
    3:5 And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him.
    4:10 This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the payment for our sins.
    4:14 Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

    Rev.15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."
    21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

    "Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things-
    2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for all
    Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world
    Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
    Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure
    Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed
    Ps 66:3,4-Enemies will submit to God
    Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house
    Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him
    Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God
    Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God
    Is 19:14,15-Egypt & Assyria will be restored-Really?
    Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate-Sounds impossible.
    Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him-Nothing? No, nothing!
    Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him-For what purpose?
    Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him-Praise His name!
    Ps 145:9-He is good to all-Including your worst enemies.
    Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works-Let's start believing that.
    Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall-Who hasn't fallen in sin?
    Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him-For "eternal torment?"
    Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people"

    "22) Ps 138:4.........ALL kings will praise God

    23) Ps 72:17.........ALL nations will call Him blessed

    24) Ps 86:9...........ALL nations will worship God & ALL men blessed

    25) Is 52:10..........ALL earth will see the salvation of God

    26) Ps 65:2‑4........ALL flesh will come to God

    27) Is 11:9.............The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord

    28) Ps 66:3‑4.........Enemies will submit & ALL earth will worship

    29) Is 19:14‑25......Egypt & Assyria will be restored

    30) Ezek 16:55.......Sodom will be restored

    31) Ps 68:18...........God will lead (all) captivity captive to dwell in man

    32) Is 54:5..............He will be called the God of THE WHOLE EARTH

    33) Ps 22:25‑29......ALL will remember & turn unto the Lord

    34) Ps 145:9‑10......God is good to ALL & merciful to His works

    35) Ps 145:14.........Raises ALL that fall & ALL that be bowed down

    36) Ps 145:15.........Eyes of ALL wait upon God & He will and gives them meat in due season

    37) Ps 145:16.........Will satisfy desire of ALL living

    38) Ps 145:9...........The Lord is good to ALL

    39) Ps 145:10.....ALL Thy works shall praise thee

    40) Ps 24:1...The Earth is the Lord's and the FULNESS thereof, and they who dwell therein
    48) Is 53:1......He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied."


    James 5:11..........End of the Lord is full of mercy
    Jn 1:7 .................. That ALL through him *might believe (


    James 2:13 For judgment without mercy will be to the one not having shown mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    Eph.1:10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth

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  6. vinsight4u

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  7. vinsight4u

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  8. vinsight4u

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  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


    "Vincent's Word Studies
    At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
    Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." Philippians 2 Commentary - Vincent's Word Studies

    "In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."

    "κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

    "2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."

    "...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"

    "...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.

    "...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"

    (The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)

    "bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":

    κάμπτω — с греческого на все языки
    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κάμπτω

    "No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."
    Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age

    "Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

    " “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

    "Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

    The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

    (2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    "It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  10. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
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  11. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
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  12. vinsight4u

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  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    With regard to your first point, I completely agree. I used that to say that there was a consciousness that lived on beyond the 1st death. That person is conscious. There is no reason to believe that they suddenly lose consciousness being cast into the "Lake of Fire". It is more likely that the part of Hades that the dead who are going to hell/Gehenna/the Lake of Fire are in mirrors to some extent the Lake of Fire, given how Jesus described the rich man's existence in torments.

    Why would people who reject God and who don't want to surrender to Him in this life--they left this world choosing to believe that was all there was--suddenly be weeping simply because they wouldn't have to suffer in Hades any more? Isn't it more coherent to think that they would be concerned that where they were going was worse than where they had been and afraid of what was coming? Furthermore, if we established that a consciousness remained after the 1st death, and that consciousness was being placed in the same "Lake of Fire" as death, hades, satan, the beast, the false prophet, etc and we know that satan will be tormented day and night forever and ever, is it not at least possible that the others thrown in the same place will also be tormented forever and ever. And, can you be tormented if you aren't conscious of it?

    I have not been to Gehenna and don't want to go there. So, the best I can do is understand what the Scriptures appear to say. Jesus Himself said it would be better to not go there. If you want to believe that as tormenting an entity that doesn't realize it is being tormented or you want to believe the entity instantaneously dies and is just being destroyed, that is your choice. Nothing I say will change your opinion.

    My whole focus of this dialogue is to cement my understanding. The idea that we have a consciousness that lives on and will spend eternity in a blissful or tormented condition makes it a much more significant rescue operation than rescuing people who don't want to be with God and are happy to simply die at the end of their life into those very two things they declared they didn't want while here. If the Lake of Fire truly was prepared for the devil and his angels, and the Lake of Fire is a ongoing forever conscious torment where the wrath of God is enforced, and if all of us were condemned to that because of Adam's sin, and if Jesus truly paid the price for all to be rescued/saved from that ongoing forever conscious torment, then it really is a rescue operation of significance. Alternatively, if God were to just breath life into people again, simply so He can kill them again, why would He even bother--simply to punish them for rejecting Him? Maybe if we could all grasp that we were created to be everlasting beings, so must end up in one of two states, maybe, then, we would understand the real significance of the rescue operation.
     
  14. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (1) I wouldn't accept the Stephen reference as a reference to paradise being "in heaven." Jesus being at the right hand of God doesn't necessarily prove that paradise is with Him. I had believed that Jesus descended and preached and I believe most who consider paradise to be a nice subdivision of hades would use that verse to validate their belief, in conjunction with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

    (2) There is another reference to paradise that does a better job of making your case, though. That is 2 Cor 12:4.

    (3) This verse certainly challenges my perspective: Jesus said: "Then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (Matt 24:30-31)

    (4) Then there is 1 Thes 4:16 where we are told "the dead in Christ shall rise first"--where are they rising from and to, if they are already "present with the Lord"? And, 1 Cor 15:24 is another reference to us being made alive at His coming (not sooner).

    (5) Even more challenging for me are these all verses in 1 Cor 15 and Romans 5 that universalists like to challenge me with.

    (6) I don't see God's grace as any different in the Old and New Testaments, in all honesty. Nobody could live up to the Law in the Old Testament either. Nobody lived up to the Law and even before the Law all had sinned, according to Scripture--even those who weren't under the Law. Jesus paid the price for them (and maybe for them in particular and we, former dogs, just happen to benefit because of what God ordained for their sakes). God had a relationship with them, as evident from Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Elijah, Mary, John the Baptist, etc. Those whom He had a relationship with will be in heaven. Hebrews 11:6-7,13-16, etc... That list is bigger than we know (Heb 11:33-40). They had faith in God to do what He said, even though they couldn't see it. We have faith in God to do what He said, even though we can't see it.

    (7) And, yes, then there is the "sheep and the goats" which violates the "belief in Jesus to get into heaven." They will get in, because of what they did to one of His. Jesus also said that another way:
    "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." (Matt 10:42, Mar 9:41) I don't think Jesus would consider hell a reward and I think any reward would be insignificant and little consolation for someone suffering in hell. And, with the sheep and the goats, the sheep are still coming to the Father through Jesus, the Judge, who is allowing them in. By setting these opportunities up, it sure seems like God is trying to give us every opportunity to escape the lake of fire--which wasn't made for man in the first place.
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    And I have understood the torment means that he is burned forever. That doesn’t necessary mean he is living, especially because according to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    If all live eternally, I don’t see any reason to say that only righteous will live.

    Firstly, I want to say, I don’t think people are punished because the rejected Jesus. People are judged because of sin, and sin remains, if person doesn’t accept the forgiveness that is offered through Jesus.

    Secondly, I think the rescue operation is significant, even if there is no eternal suffering.
     
  16. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    About Steven,,,, I find comfort knowing that when I Die, I will be met by Jesus. The standing and Sitting has another meaning. Don't get it confused.

     
  17. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
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  18. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
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  19. 1213

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    Is that said in the Bible?
     
  20. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
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